Katherine Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Can a character use Dispel, Suppress or some other adjustment Power to send a Summon creature away after the initial use of Summon? For example, a demonologist Summons a pit fiend and sends to attack a character. It arrives hours later. Can the mage Dispel the original Summon and banish it or would they have to interrupt the original use of the Power? Part our groups says yes, since you can't just Dispel things like Entangles or the Damage from an Energy Blast, others think Summon is a special case. On a related note could another Aid a Summon and strengthen an already Summoned being? I can think of some cool (and kinda grisly) rites that could have that effect but I'm not sure if its mechanically valid (unless I used my power of: The GM says so. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Re: Negative Adjustment Powers vs Summoned Beings after the fact You can use dispel, even though summons is technically an instant power: that was a specific rule in 5e. Haven't checked 6e for it but it makes good sense. You can certainly aid a summoned being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Re: Negative Adjustment Powers vs Summoned Beings after the fact The rule that you can use a dispel/drain/suppress to banish a summoned creature is specifically preserved on page 289 of 6e1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katherine Posted August 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Re: Negative Adjustment Powers vs Summoned Beings after the fact You can use dispel, even though summons is technically an instant power: that was a specific rule in 5e. Haven't checked 6e for it but it makes good sense. Thanks! That's an odd exception when you think about it. If Summon is the mechanism for creating things like Undead and all Demons must have been summoned as some point whats the time limit? Can you Dispel the Summon on the Demon that's been guarding a tomb for centuries or and Undead? You can certainly aid a summoned being. I was more thinking of Aiding the original Summon like you can Dispel it but you've sort of answered that since it was as special rule for Dispel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katherine Posted August 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Re: Negative Adjustment Powers vs Summoned Beings after the fact The rule that you can use a dispel/drain/suppress to banish a summoned creature is specifically preserved on page 289 of 6e1. If you use Drain or Suppress does the creature come back when the wear off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Re: Negative Adjustment Powers vs Summoned Beings after the fact Thanks! That's an odd exception when you think about it. If Summon is the mechanism for creating things like Undead and all Demons must have been summoned as some point whats the time limit? Can you Dispel the Summon on the Demon that's been guarding a tomb for centuries or and Undead? Yes you can, but it was probably built with power defence against that sort of mularkey, and there is a good chance it was an expensive summon to start off with Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted August 23, 2009 Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Re: Negative Adjustment Powers vs Summoned Beings after the fact If you use Drain or Suppress does the creature come back when the wear off? Good question - for Drain I'd say 'No' for sure...suppress is arguable though. Take the example of a Body drain v Body suppress: the Body Drain can kill you, the Body suppress can only kill you while it is on...again have not checked the new version of suppress so this is a 5e perspective Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katherine Posted August 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2009 Re: Negative Adjustment Powers vs Summoned Beings after the fact Good question - for Drain I'd say 'No' for sure...suppress is arguable though. Take the example of a Body drain v Body suppress: the Body Drain can kill you' date=' the Body suppress can only kill you while it is on...[/b']again have not checked the new version of suppress so this is a 5e perspective Ack! I never thought of that... "Don't worry. He's only mostly dead. Not all dead. We can still save him!" My head hurts. Edit: Suppress Summon could be a cool spell. The mage or priest has to focus their will to hold the demon in the Nether world and they can only do it just so long... I'm just not sure if the cool is worth the occasional headache. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: Negative Adjustment Powers vs Summoned Beings after the fact Thanks! That's an odd exception when you think about it. If Summon is the mechanism for creating things like Undead and all Demons must have been summoned as some point whats the time limit? Can you Dispel the Summon on the Demon that's been guarding a tomb for centuries or and Undead? I was more thinking of Aiding the original Summon like you can Dispel it but you've sort of answered that since it was as special rule for Dispel. You seem to be under a misconception. Just because, in the campaign world, demons have to be summoned from somewhere, does not mean they have to be Summoned (Big S). You can have a Follower that is a demon you summoned. You don’t need to use the Summon Mechanic. In other words, being “summoned from hell” (or wherever) is a SFX issue (or even just Back-story/Origin) not a requirement for Summon the game Mechanic to be used. The “Demon that’s been guarding a tomb for centuries” is only Dispel-able if you built it as a Summon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katherine Posted August 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: Negative Adjustment Powers vs Summoned Beings after the fact You seem to be under a misconception. Just because' date=' in the campaign world, demons have to be summoned from somewhere, does not mean they have to be Summoned (Big S). You can have a Follower that is a demon you summoned. You don’t need to use the Summon Mechanic. In other words, being “summoned from hell” (or wherever) is a SFX issue (or even just Back-story/Origin) not a requirement for Summon the game Mechanic to be used. The “Demon that’s been guarding a tomb for centuries” is only Dispel-able if you built it as a Summon.[/quote'] No, I get that. It just cause me a little cognitive dissonance when the mechanics clash with setting. If all Demons are summoned then it just clicks more with me for them to all work as if they were Summoned. I'd like for a Mage's Spell of Infernal Banishment to work the same way on all demons unless there's a both a coherent reason why it doesn't aside from fiat. For example, if a PC has a Demonic Follower in a setting where all Demons have to summoned and have no way to have summoned it (Does not have Summoning) I'll have to talk with the player about where it came from. And there's a chance it could Banished (The Summoning that brought Dispelled). I'm not demanding that is how the RAW should work or how it should be in anyone elses game I just personally like as much mechanical and narrative consistency as I can get. Years of White Wolf* have put off mechanics that don't match the setting fluff. *Exalted and Aberrant I'm looking at you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the Bruins Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: Negative Adjustment Powers vs Summoned Beings after the fact I seem to recall in 5edR that summoned beings can "acclimate" to their new surroundings and become immune to banishment by Dispel, either once they're free of performing the tasks required under terms of their summoning, or after a suitable amount of time has passed in the GM's opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: Negative Adjustment Powers vs Summoned Beings after the fact I think this is a consideration for individual campaigns. Anything defined as a demon could arguably take a Physical Complication: Can be dispelled (Target = Total Character Points/5), even if not actually summoned. I used to build supernatural creatures with Phys Lims like 'can not cross a properly drawn magic circle' - you didn't need to buy and define a 'Magic Circle' power with Force Wall or somesuch - you just drew it - and, if you did it right (KS: Magical Protections), it stopped supernatural creatures from crossing. Similarly demons tended to be built with a limitation 'can be compelled if loses an EGO contest on first meeting' Just because Hero CAN build pretty much anything doesn't mean you HAVE to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted August 24, 2009 Report Share Posted August 24, 2009 Re: Negative Adjustment Powers vs Summoned Beings after the fact I like making it a Disad on the creature rather than a Power on the player. Rep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: Negative Adjustment Powers vs Summoned Beings after the fact Even if I allowed negative Adjustment Powers to dismiss a Summoned creature (and I think I like the Disadvantage/Complication idea too), I wouldn't allow any sort of partial effect, and obviously you could negatively adjust the Summoned being's own Characteristics and Powers apart from the Summon that called it. So you might be able to use a Suppress Summon to dismiss a demon that has already been summoned, you could also use Suppress Blast on the demon's fire blast or whatever. I do think a Drain or Suppress would dismiss the being permanently (or at least until Summoned again); if you have enough effect to turn a power off, it normally stays off until its owner can turn it on again. Likewise, while I think you could obviously positively adjust the Summoned being's own Characteristics and Powers, you would have to positively adjust the Summon power itself before it was used to gain benefit from it. So you could use Aid Summon before the demon was summoned in order to add points at the 5x level to the kind of demon that is summoned, but after it is summoned you'd have to just Aid the demon's own Blast (or other Characteristics/Powers) directly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: Negative Adjustment Powers vs Summoned Beings after the fact No, I get that. It just cause me a little cognitive dissonance when the mechanics clash with setting. If all Demons are summoned then it just clicks more with me for them to all work as if they were Summoned. I'd like for a Mage's Spell of Infernal Banishment to work the same way on all demons unless there's a both a coherent reason why it doesn't aside from fiat. For example, if a PC has a Demonic Follower in a setting where all Demons have to summoned and have no way to have summoned it (Does not have Summoning) I'll have to talk with the player about where it came from. And there's a chance it could Banished (The Summoning that brought Dispelled). I'm not demanding that is how the RAW should work or how it should be in anyone elses game I just personally like as much mechanical and narrative consistency as I can get. Years of White Wolf* have put off mechanics that don't match the setting fluff. *Exalted and Aberrant I'm looking at you... You could make a House Rule that the longer a summoned being (however you want to define them) stays around the harder it is banish them with Dispel. Set an interval and each time it passes, NAPs used against the original Summon lose one die and so eventually all but the most mighty spells become ineffective. It will save you the trouble of working a different version like some kind EDM usable as an Attack. As an alternative (and probably simpler option), rule that once a summoned being has done as ordered it is no longer considered bound and can't be forced back to wherever it came from by breaking the spell. Maybe I can opt to return on its own or maybe nut as suits your campaign world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katherine Posted August 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Re: Negative Adjustment Powers vs Summoned Beings after the fact Thanks for all the suggestions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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