Random FH problems.

[tiger]

Originally posted by Markdoc

Still on the topic of Deadly Blow..

 

 

Well as a GM, that’s your choice, but it’s not how the rules define it. Aid allows you to enhance a specific power.

 

True but in FH the sword is equipment and therefor the Aid wouldn't work. It would only be able to increase powers purchased.

[BlackSword]

Re: FH Perks

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

And another perk that seems incompletely defined: The various Rank perks (nobility, religious, military, etc.). What exactly is it that a Grand Duke gets for his 9 points that a Baron doesn't get, having spent only 4? It's not a bigger castle - that would be covered under the Base perk. It seems to me that the actual title isn't worth anything - only what that title gives you. If you're a king with a small kingdom of 10,000 square miles and 1,000,000 subjects, I'd say thats worth the same as being a duke in a huge kingdom where your duchy is 10,000 square miles and contains 1,000,000 subjects. Without some defining rules (or at least guidelines) the titles are meaningless. Perhaps they should have been saved for the specific fantasy setting books. (Being king of Virbenland, one of the main kingdoms in my campaign world, is probably worth the full 15 points, maybe more; but being king of Osai, a small, semi-nomadic tribe, is probably only worth 5.) They might as well have used "fantasy" titles:

What's the point if we don't know what the actual benefits are? And why the heck do you have to pay to be a squire? What kind of a perk is that? All it is is the errand-boy to a knight! If anything you should get a disad for it (subject to orders, watched, etc.).

 

And besides, it wasn't until the 1600's, under King Edward, IIRC, that those titles were given a strict ranking. Prior to that time there was no functional difference between a count and a duke. It was only a matter of tradition what one's title was. It had nothing to do with the size of the demesne. Probably part of the reason why the titles are in that order is because of the political situation at the time: Ed just liked the current duke more than he liked the current earl.

Since in modern times the ranks of nobility are defined, it is easier to work with those as people know what to expect, that a duke ranks higher than a baron. As is often repeated, you can make up your own titles, but then you have to explain in detail what they mean to your players, while if you use titles with current or historical meaning then it doesn't require that extra time for you to explain to your players that a Gloof is a Baron, but I didn't want to use the term Baron so every time you meet someone that has the benefits of the rank of Baron call him a Gloof.

 

I am not up on my English royalty, but I believe that the different ranks come with different perks and responsibilities, also while the points spent for rank don't determine what your demense is, the GM can put a cap on the number of points put into a base or followers dependant on rank. As badger3k pointed out, since this is a world-building toolkit it will ultimately be up to the GM to define what each rank means, its just handy to have the ranks in one book so you don't have to grab the big book of heraldry just to look up noble titles for the game world.

 

For the example you gave, the big difference between a king and a duke with the same population is autonomy. The king is the sovereign, the duke owes a lot to his sovereign either in terms of income, food production or soldiers, the duke will have to provide to the kingdom as a whole. Ultimately it is up to the GM's discretion, as with Disadvantages, a Disavantage that is not a Disadvantage is worth no points, an Advantage that provides nothing adventageous, or less than is expected should be scaled appropriately.

[Demonsong]

Personally as long as Deadly Blow (in what ever form) and Martial Arts are not mixed, I don’t have a problem with Deadly Blow. And since I am the GM the two will never mix.

[Earen]

Re: FH Perks

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Spirit Contacts? O.K. fine, but why is there a x2 multiplier to the cost without there being some desciption of why the contact is twice as useful? It seems like having to pay for special effects.

 

Actually, it states on page 98 of FH in the very first paragraph of the "Spirit Contacts" section (emphasis added):

 

At the GM's option, some characters ... can use Contact as a form of faux conjuration. Instead of using Summon ...

 

To me, this would imply that a character could attempt to persuade their "Contact" to actually perform Summon-like tasks for them. I would say that yes, this would be worth at least twice the normal points.

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

And another perk that seems incompletely defined: The various Rank perks (nobility, religious, military, etc.). What exactly is it that a Grand Duke gets for his 9 points that a Baron doesn't get, having spent only 4?

 

This one I think you're just reading too much into a table that is specifically called out in the preceding text as "suggested ... values for positions based on Earth cultures" (once again, my emphasis ... page 99 of FH).

 

You are correct, the title is not what the character is paying for, but the resources that go with that title. If, in your campaign, a duke gets absolutely nothing but a fancy name for their letterhead that everyone knows is a sham ... then it's worth 0 points. If, on the other hand, a duke is treated as the right hand of the royalty and is welcomed at any table, high or low, in a vast empire that spans half the globe ... then it should be worth more than just the 8 points listed in the table.

[badger3k]

Originally posted by Markdoc

Still on the topic of Deadly Blow..

 

{edited}

 

>>> Aid wouldn't work – snippage - I wouldn't allow AID to HKA for any weapon that's picked up, though.<<<

 

Well as a GM, that’s your choice, but it’s not how the rules define it. Aid allows you to enhance a specific power. Your power, your mate’s power, Tom Bombadil’s power, whatever. So Aid can be used on any HKA you pick up: or the ones your friend is carrying. To use it for the deadly blow effect, I would require the self only limitation, so it could NOT be used on other people’s HKA. So I have no problem with that. The big problem with Aid is that it is not a very cost efficient method to do this – it takes time to get the best effect out of AID. It remains a possibility , however, particularly since the active cost it can be limited down.

 

My argument was the "specific" power - you could enhance the cold-iron sword your father gave you, but not one you picked up. To me aid is more personal, unless you buy UBO or something else - haven't really looked into it.

 

It gets worse. Imagine a Dwarf warrior with 18 STR and axe skill. Not an outlandish concept, no? The player buys deadly blow talent, "axemaster" defining it exactly as the "swordmaster" skill listed under Deadly Blow. It costs him a whole 7 points. Now you have a dwarf who - without levels, or martial arts, does 3d6+1 HKA with an ordinary battle axe. He could easily get up to 4d6, and with martial arts, levels and magic could go to 6d6, since he has a BASE damage of 3d6 (Eek!)

 

Not to mention he does two-handed sword damage with a hatchet.....

 

I'm sorry: the more I think about this construct, the more it stinks like a week-old corpse.

 

Looked at it that way, I can see your point. I like the low cost apporach to simulate some things, but this does look like it should have a stop sign on it.

 

You are missing the point here.

edit

Perhaps you see now why this is really a BAD rule to introduce.

 

I did miss the point. Well, I can see what you're saying. You have given me a bit to think about for my own campaign now.

 

Appreciate the info on your campaign

 

I hope so: what I mean is that most published material is considered “official†by many players. If you DON’T want deadly blow in your game – as I don’t - then you have to explain to your players why not. In general I would much prefer that an "official" genre book stuck to the published rules, with perhaps suggestions on how and why you can choose to deviate from those. My biggest disappointment with FH is that it is full of deviations from Hero system, which don’t seem to have any good reasons behind them and no explanation as to why they were included. As a genre book, it makes it very much less useful.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I do see what you mean, although I haven't run into that problem yet. I tend to explain what I allow or don't allow anyway, and I have fallen back on the "I don't like it" rule at times. I've disallowed many things that I felt have been unbalanced or underpriced or whatever. Very rarely has anyone convinced me not to do it. Personally, I think it's better that way (it's not done during game time usually) since I get to see what my player is thinking and he can see my way. The games tend to run smoother IMO. (Of course, trying to explain rules interpretations in the middle of a battle has also happened in the past too, so no systems perfect).

 

That said, I'm not sure I agree with you on the whole less-usefulness of FH because of the deviations. Having the designer explain why something was included would be nice, but I don't think it's needed too much - I'm more than sufficiently versed in both frpgs and fantasy in general that I could follow the reasoning (in my opinion) of those that I looked at. Haven't looked at all - the bloody thing is huge. Sure different than the first version.

 

Again, appreciate the comments.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Re: FH Perks

 

Originally posted by Earen

To me, this would imply that a character could attempt to persuade their "Contact" to actually perform Summon-like tasks for them. I would say that yes, this would be worth at least twice the normal points.

I'd say to any player who wants a Summon for the price of a Contact, "Welcome to Munchkinland." Even at twice the price, it's still too cheap for a summon. If you want to summon a spirit to do your bidding, buy Summon. They are two different things, that's why they have two different prices.

 

This one I think you're just reading too much into a table that is specifically called out in the preceding text as "suggested ... values for positions based on Earth cultures" (once again, my emphasis ... page 99 of FH).

 

You are correct, the title is not what the character is paying for, but the resources that go with that title. If, in your campaign, a duke gets absolutely nothing but a fancy name for their letterhead that everyone knows is a sham ... then it's worth 0 points. If, on the other hand, a duke is treated as the right hand of the royalty and is welcomed at any table, high or low, in a vast empire that spans half the globe ... then it should be worth more than just the 8 points listed in the table.

That's exactly my point! What does it get you? If they mean to imply some actual level of political power and privileges, then why aren't those spelled out in the table? All the table gives is titles. A list of titles can certainly be useful, but give at least some general guidelines for what each title gives you. That's all I'm asking for.

 

I'd just give the perk one generic name: Nobility.

Paul the peasant doesn't buy nobility.

Bob the baron buys 3 points of nobility.

Dave the duke buys 7 points of nobility.

 

Don't Paul, Bob, and Dave deserve fair bang for the buck? What does Bob get that Paul doesn't get? And what does Dave get that Bob doesn't get? And by this, I mean what do they get that is actually useful in play? (0, 3 or 7 points of utility.)

[Earen]

Re: Re: Re: FH Perks

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

I'd say to any player who wants a Summon for the price of a Contact, "Welcome to Munchkinland." Even at twice the price, it's still too cheap for a summon. If you want to summon a spirit to do your bidding, buy Summon. They are two different things, that's why they have two different prices.

 

I would tend to agree with you ... depending on what exactly the player were trying to get out of the power.

 

Scenario #1: Player wants to be able to summon a servant at any time, subject to the restrictions of the spell (magic roll, gestures, incantations, etc) ... have a contest of wills and then force it to do whatever he asks.

 

Scenario #2: Player wants to be have a "spirit guide" that he summons through a semi-elaborate non-combat ritual that is only useful at certain times of the month. It is used mainly to gain information, but with some good roleplaying could convince his spirit guide to invisibly scout the lair of the Evil Lord and supply exact guard placements ... or perhaps even soften up the defenses at a crucial moment.

 

#1 is obviously a case for Summon. #2 could be simulated with Summon with appropriate limitations, but the idea here is that a Contact is something that is almost entirely in the control of the GM. The GM has final ruling if the Contact is going to help or not. A Summon is more in control of the player ... with some limitations on whether or not he can get it to work.

 

To me ... Scenario #2 is what they were talking about in FH. Now, as to a player who reads that and thinks they can get a cheap Summon ... in my games, he'd have a rude awakening

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Re: Re: Re: FH Perks

 

Originally posted by Earen

Scenario #2: Player wants to be have a "spirit guide" that he summons through a semi-elaborate non-combat ritual that is only useful at certain times of the month. It is used mainly to gain information, but with some good roleplaying could convince his spirit guide to invisibly scout the lair of the Evil Lord and supply exact guard placements ... or perhaps even soften up the defenses at a crucial moment.

 

#1 is obviously a case for Summon. #2 could be simulated with Summon with appropriate limitations, but the idea here is that a Contact is something that is almost entirely in the control of the GM. The GM has final ruling if the Contact is going to help or not. A Summon is more in control of the player ... with some limitations on whether or not he can get it to work.

 

To me ... Scenario #2 is what they were talking about in FH. Now, as to a player who reads that and thinks they can get a cheap Summon ... in my games, he'd have a rude awakening

That's fine. My only problem is that the FH book says that "Spirit Contacts" cost twice as much as regular contacts (or more!) without explaining why. Just like they did when they said that Grand Duke is more expensive than Viscount without explaining why. If you charge more CPs, you have to explain what it gets you. As a GM, I can interpret this myself, but the FH book is asking me to fit my game rulings to their cost structure. All I'm asking for is some guidelines, quid pro quo, not just labels with prices.

[CorpCommander]

Magic Items in my world

 

Here is how I handle Magic Items in my world.

 

A.: They are extremely rare. Thousands of gp per real point of cost.

 

B.: They are either based on charges or have a lifespan. A magic sword, for instance, will eventually just stop being magical. Much like a magnet stops being very magnetic after a lot of wear and tear. The stronger the magnetic alignment the longer it lasts and thus the more active points in an item the longer it lasts. I don't tell players how long they will last, just that they won't last forever. This isn't treated as a limitation - its in the realm of GM Fiat. This is mainly for found items. Character created items, especially if they were imbued with personal character points, will last the length of the campaign.

 

C.: Most magic items are created with components. 1pt of magic components costs 100 - 500gp. It depends on supply and demand. You also need a lab and tools and expert knowlege of what you are making. Magic swords are imbued with magic when made not after the fact so if the wizard isn't a master swordmaker he has to work with one. More often than not the components necessary in the quantity necessary are tied up - the Churches and the government and the wizard guild get first dibs. More often than not its a controlled substance. Not like drugs. More like URANIUM.

 

D.: if a Character wants to put his own experience into a magic item creation it goes at the rate of 1 character point for 3 magical points. (the "Independent" limitation is factored in this generous exchange rate.)