Black Ops Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 A question to the Gunnuts: How would you simulate a Shotgun loaded with Rocksalt ? - EB vs PD ? (On a related note: Why is it considered nonlethal ?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... A question to the Gunnuts: How would you simulate a Shotgun loaded with Rocksalt ? - EB vs PD ? (On a related note: Why is it considered nonlethal ?) Not a "gunnut" but... you want that stated out realistically or based on Hollywood BS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaft Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... Not a "gunnut" but... you want that stated out realistically or based on Hollywood BS? ooh! ooh! All of the above! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makiaveli Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... Can't provide a mathematical answer, but it's non-lethal because it doesn't have the mass that say lead does. So it may be moving as fast, but it does less damage. Think speed times mass. Low mass balances speed until the speed gets high enough. That said, I've seen hogs (as in pigs raised to be food) shrug off 20ga rocksalt at 20 feet. On the other hand, never use several year old feed corn as filler in a shot shell. Damn near amputated the leg at the same distance. Turns out that wedge shape makes for good aerodynamics and they almost all hit point first and since they were dried and hard..... and yes I was raised in Redneck Land/Bible Belt but I like to think I overcame some of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... Can't provide a mathematical answer, but it's non-lethal because it doesn't have the mass that say lead does. So it may be moving as fast, but it does less damage. Think speed times mass. Low mass balances speed until the speed gets high enough. That said, I've seen hogs (as in pigs raised to be food) shrug off 20ga rocksalt at 20 feet. Yep, it's got virtually no penetration at anything but point blank range. Try it at about 10' and you might hurt something. Well, so long as the target isn't wearing anything that might block it... like a t-shirt. Of course it's still plenty loud and if it does break the skin I imagine it would sting like hell. Probably wouldn't want to take a blast in the face either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makiaveli Posted August 28, 2009 Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... Yep, it's got virtually no penetration at anything but point blank range. Try it at about 10' and you might hurt something. Well, so long as the target isn't wearing anything that might block it... like a t-shirt. Of course it's still plenty loud and if it does break the skin I imagine it would sting like hell. Probably wouldn't want to take a blast in the face either... It's been used for a long time as a non-lethal way to convince someone to go away. Not sure I would trust a t-shirt at point-blank range, but feel free to test it and get back to me Seriously tho, salt isn't going to bury itself like a bullet, if you got a chunk of rock salt under your skin, it would burn like *insert dirty word here* but you could get it out with minimal work. Also remember when this was common, people did alot of their own medical work. So you would run home to momma and she would dig the rock salt outta your butt for you. Game-wise, it would be useful I guess as a non-lethal alternative, would probably go with a EB vs. PD and maybe a Continuous attack on a small activation roll if you wanted to be really mean to represent the possibility of getting some in a sensitive spot Been a while since I looked at how many DCs a shotgun had, but maybe the same just Normal instead of killing. And maybe keep the Red. Pen. and/or Red. by Range. Note: I have been away for a while, looked over 5th(?) but my last rulebook has Seeker on the cover.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Ops Posted August 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... Not a "gunnut" but... you want that stated out realistically or based on Hollywood BS? Lets say both. (I can then decide which one I like better) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sociotard Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... Hmmm. lets assume the following as we build The purpose of rocksalt in a shotgun is a nonlethal (hopefully) attempt to subdue/chase away a person. Some damage is just about guaranteed unless the user has a leather jacket or something. Very serious damage is possible (blindness etc), but this is a bad thing. The risk of seriously hurting somebody limits the use of this power. 7 +30 PRE, Side Effects (Side Effect only affects the environment near the character; Deals 1d6 killing damage to target; +0), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (45 Active Points); Only to Attack (-1), Set Effect (-1), OAF (-1), 6 Charges (-3/4), STR Minimum 6-14 (-1/2), Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Limited Range (20"; -1/4) 4 Energy Blast 2d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (15 Active Points); OAF (-1), 6 Charges (-3/4), STR Minimum 6-14 (-1/2), Limited Range (20"; -1/4) There. Now, normally this will deal a 2d6 EB and a 6d6 PRE attack. Once in a while it will just do a 1d6 killing attack, and the GM will be expected to play up the extent of the injury and make the player feel bad for using lethal force. depending on the story, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Ops Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... A interesting take. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makiaveli Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... Hmmm. lets assume the following as we build The purpose of rocksalt in a shotgun is a nonlethal (hopefully) attempt to subdue/chase away a person. Some damage is just about guaranteed unless the user has a leather jacket or something. Very serious damage is possible (blindness etc), but this is a bad thing. The risk of seriously hurting somebody limits the use of this power. 7 +30 PRE, Side Effects (Side Effect only affects the environment near the character; Deals 1d6 killing damage to target; +0), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (45 Active Points); Only to Attack (-1), Set Effect (-1), OAF (-1), 6 Charges (-3/4), STR Minimum 6-14 (-1/2), Activation Roll 14- (-1/2), Limited Range (20"; -1/4) 4 Energy Blast 2d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (15 Active Points); OAF (-1), 6 Charges (-3/4), STR Minimum 6-14 (-1/2), Limited Range (20"; -1/4) There. Now, normally this will deal a 2d6 EB and a 6d6 PRE attack. Once in a while it will just do a 1d6 killing attack, and the GM will be expected to play up the extent of the injury and make the player feel bad for using lethal force. depending on the story, of course. At first I was going to argue against the PRE attack but then I realized what you were getting at. Still, firing a shotgun at a normal person would probably have them wet themselves (you got that covered) but someone with more presence of mind (pun intended, sorry) would likely be pissed once they realized what had really happened. I also think that (unless the rules have changed dramatically the last 2 editions) that shooting rocksalt would initially have the same effect as shooting any other gun at someone, ie a violent action with the attendant +s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yansuf Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... I also think that (unless the rules have changed dramatically the last 2 editions) that shooting rocksalt would initially have the same effect as shooting any other gun at someone, ie a violent action with the attendant +s. If the shot misses, it is exactly the same! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makiaveli Posted September 11, 2009 Report Share Posted September 11, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... If the shot misses' date=' it is exactly the same![/quote'] Good point, I don't think my brain was working when I posted that. Yea a clean miss should be worth less of a bonus because the gun went bang. Whereas if you actually shot something, then the effect on the target could modify the dice. So if you shot rocksalt at a car say and scuffed the paint, that should be less of a bonus than shooting 000 buck into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sociotard Posted September 12, 2009 Report Share Posted September 12, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... On the other hand, shooting a man with 000 buck won't impress him, because dead men are hard to impress. However, rocksalt should cause agony, and even a guy in a leather coat might get a few grains in the face. Agony is nicely represented by PRE. Besides, p 288 of the old 5e (not 5er or 6e) says that a violent action is only +1d6, and an incredibly violent action is +3d6. A +6d6 rocksalt round is . . . impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makiaveli Posted September 13, 2009 Report Share Posted September 13, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... On the other hand, shooting a man with 000 buck won't impress him, because dead men are hard to impress. However, rocksalt should cause agony, and even a guy in a leather coat might get a few grains in the face. Agony is nicely represented by PRE. Besides, p 288 of the old 5e (not 5er or 6e) says that a violent action is only +1d6, and an incredibly violent action is +3d6. A +6d6 rocksalt round is . . . impressive. Well I meant shooting into the air or hitting a nearby object. And I don't see rocksalt doing 6d6N. That would just about be enough to put a normal at half health (avg 6 Body, 2 Def, 10-4 = 6). And if rocksalt counts as incredibly violent, then that would be the same as me using a LAW to blow a car up, then Presence attacking a nearby group of thugs. Some how I think popping a guy with rocksalt would be less impressive than blowing 4 guys to hell along with their car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sociotard Posted September 13, 2009 Report Share Posted September 13, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... I didn't say +6d6 normal damage. Let me clarify: "Besides, p 288 of the old 5e (not 5er or 6e) says that a violent action is only +1d6 to presence attacks, and an incredibly violent action is +3d6 to presence attacks. A +6d6 to presence attacks rocksalt round is . . . impressive." Rocksalt rounds are not impressive because they're big and dangerous like a LAW to a car. They're impressive because Auuuugh, you shot me with something that hurts and leaves me writhing on the ground Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordGhee Posted September 13, 2009 Report Share Posted September 13, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... I have never had rock salt shot at me, I listen to my garndfather many wiswe words and just asked the gentleman on the farm next to my grandfather if i could have a watermelon. My cousins on the other hand, well at 30 yds rocksalt dose not spread much we could tell this by the pattern on the right butt cheak of my cousins blue jeans. He wasgoing over the fence at the corner and at the top of his apogee bang. From the screams it must be agony. you have to clean out the salt for it to stop hurting. blue jeans are no defense and at 50 yds (second barrel) my cousins friend got salted in the back. just a lot of wimpering. the presence attk of a man coming out of his house screaming i going to get u with a shotgun is considerable. the bang sounds like a regular bang so you think you are under lethal attack. My grandfather ask me where I got the watermelons I replyed from your neighbor and he said thank you for the hay. and I never told my cousins that. hehehe under 30 yds it is damaging at 10 yds if hit in chest could kill you (posining the target is a strong possabity) everyine in town commented that it was a good shot and when asked the farmer stated that I was going to fire into the air but when that kid went over the fence and present that target well I could not resist taken the shot. I thank my grandfather for teaching me to be polite, I got watermelons for the family and got cool points with my cousins. Lord Ghee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makiaveli Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... I didn't say +6d6 normal damage. Let me clarify: "Besides, p 288 of the old 5e (not 5er or 6e) says that a violent action is only +1d6 to presence attacks, and an incredibly violent action is +3d6 to presence attacks. A +6d6 to presence attacks rocksalt round is . . . impressive." Rocksalt rounds are not impressive because they're big and dangerous like a LAW to a car. They're impressive because Auuuugh, you shot me with something that hurts and leaves me writhing on the ground Ok I see where I went wrong. Sorry about that. I normally have good reading comprehension but I guess I rolled ones on that attempt @Lord Ghee I still doubt that rock salt would be lethal, I don't think it would penetrate deep enough. I've seen my dad fire rock salt rounds into a hog a 10 FEET and watched the hog keep eating. Now that said, yes a hit in the right place (wrong place?) could kill. Fire off a blank round next to your head and you may wind up dead as the wadding has been known to punch thru the temple. I think the damage would need to be scaled to the genre and the result the GM was aiming for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordGhee Posted September 15, 2009 Report Share Posted September 15, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... here is one way http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot33.htm and off a police forum Rock salt works extremely well, I speak from experience. When I was 17 several of my friends and I were caught stealing watermelons from a farmer and I took a round in the ass and down the back of my legs while trying to scale a fence. Very painful experience. The farmer called the police and I got a ride home from them. When I got home the police officer asked my Dad if he wanted to press charges. "Well the hell for? If he was'nt stealing shit he would never have been shot!!" was good ole Dad's response. He then proceeded to make me sit in a bath tub of warm water to make the salt disolve, making for painful experience #2. I guess Dad proved his point because I never stole from a farmer again. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- so there u go \ Lord Ghee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makiaveli Posted September 19, 2009 Report Share Posted September 19, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... here is one way http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot33.htm and off a police forum Rock salt works extremely well, I speak from experience. When I was 17 several of my friends and I were caught stealing watermelons from a farmer and I took a round in the ass and down the back of my legs while trying to scale a fence. Very painful experience. The farmer called the police and I got a ride home from them. When I got home the police officer asked my Dad if he wanted to press charges. "Well the hell for? If he was'nt stealing shit he would never have been shot!!" was good ole Dad's response. He then proceeded to make me sit in a bath tub of warm water to make the salt disolve, making for painful experience #2. I guess Dad proved his point because I never stole from a farmer again. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- so there u go \ Lord Ghee I guess that answers that question Thanks for the link and I would rep you if I could but for now you will have to settle for an Attaboy!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Ops Posted September 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 20, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... Got him for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordGhee Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... Thanks for the Rep Lord Ghee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makiaveli Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Re: Rocksalt... Thanks for the Rep Lord Ghee You're welcome For the humor impaired: That was a joke....since Black Ops said he did it since I couldn't...get it? No? Then sorry I can't help you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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