Proposal for new mental power advantages

[megaplayboy]

Contested Breakout Roll (CBR) (+1/4): With this advantage, the target's breakout roll is converted to an EGO vs. EGO roll, modified by the amount by which the points of effect exceeded the level needed. The mentalist rolls their EGO roll first, modified by any assigned mental combat levels, and the target then has to make their roll by an amount equal to or greater than the amount the mentalist made their roll by in order to break free of the effects of the mental power.

Skilled Effect (+1/4): with this advantage, the mentalist may attempt to achieve an effect higher than that rolled on the dice, with the target receiving a bonus to their breakout roll equal to +1 per 5 points rolled below the level attempted (i.e., if one rolls an amount equal to EGO +10, and the effect desired is EGO + 20, then the target gets a +4 to their attempt to break out). This breakout attempt takes place immediately after the target is hit by the power.

Skilled Effect may be combined with Contested Breakout Roll, in which case the target receives the above bonus while rolling the EGO v. EGO roll contest to break free.

 

I think Skilled Effect should probably be a +1/2 or +3/4, but I was trying to price it appropriately for pulp, fantasy and sci fi settings.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

Another one:

No time bonuses(+1/4): The target does not get bonuses to breakout based on how long the power has been in effect.

[torchwolf]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

Option for No time bonuses (+1/2 per level down Time Chart): Postponed Breakout Roll?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

Option for No time bonuses (+1/2 per level down Time Chart): Postponed Breakout Roll?

 

Hmm, that seems a bit steep, unless you're including the initial breakout roll attempt in there. For a 4 level postponement (2nd breakout roll doesn't occur until 20 minutes later), that's a +2, and you could basically buy triple the number of dice for the mental power (or load it up with a bunch of other advantageous advantages, like cumulative x4(+1), invisible, telepathic, etc.

 

Generally my intent is to 1) make mental powers more useful at lower point level games; and 2) give mentalists with high EGO stats some extra value for those points spent.

[torchwolf]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

Hmm' date=' that seems a bit steep, unless you're including the initial breakout roll attempt in there.[/quote']

 

I did; excluding that, +1/4 seems reasonable and along the Return Rate cost. Taking away the initial Breakout Roll isn't reasonable at all, when I think about it.

 

For a 4 level postponement (2nd breakout roll doesn't occur until 20 minutes later)' date=' that's a +2, and you could basically buy triple the number of dice for the mental power (or load it up with a bunch of other advantageous advantages, like cumulative x4(+1), invisible, telepathic, etc.[/quote']

 

Reducing it to +1/4 per step, that would be a +1. Still on the expensive side, but may be worth it for posthypnotic suggestions etc.

 

Generally my intent is to 1) make mental powers more useful at lower point level games; and 2) give mentalists with high EGO stats some extra value for those points spent.

 

Understood. Suggestions so far seem very useful to me.

[Beast]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

+1/2 0 end cost allows you to maintain the ego effect and there is no time bonus allowed

you could do the same with +1/4 cost end only to start

 

so long as you maintain the effect the target does not get a time based bonus

 

in a 60 active game you have a 45% chance of controlling your target with an ego roll of 11- till post 12

what you need to do is craft your command so it is not always an ego+30 you are going up against

and time your mind control to last as long as possible(hit with it in the top of the turn

 

suggestion for commands

my friends(or I have planted a bomb at city hall to go off in X ammount of time go get it and disarm it

 

do a mental illusion of a normal getting painfully disintagrated(no body left to bury)then give this command

I have snipers all around just waiting to shoot norrmals if you hit me

you want to go and get them first

 

 

in a typical game it take about 3 to 4 hits to take out hero

mind control can do that in 1 hit and add that hero to the other side

 

telepathy can be used to see if there are any buttons you can push on your target

 

In 1 game I'm in we have a hero with a 40's mentality and killing and it is a known fact

then most of the rest of the team have CVKs

suggestion that the hero needs to stop their murderous teammate would be an easy to do

it has 1 hero not fighting your side and possible restraining or attacking a teammate there by giving relief to your teammate

[megaplayboy]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

That's all well and good, but it's not really an argument against providing an option to change the breakout roll to a contested roll rather than a straight roll. A 62% chance that a mental power will be completely ineffective even after it hits and the dice of effect are sufficient to achieve the level needed is a formula for frustration. I understand the reasons for that, and I understand they have little to do with play balance and everything to do with the comfort level of non-mentalist PCs and their players in game. Put bluntly, a lot of players hate feeling a loss of control over their characters and this sentiment has become embodied in the rules, both with respect to mental powers and with respect to PRE attacks and interaction skills. Unfortunately, this also means that mentalist players and mentalist NPCs get the short end of the stick(the points they spend on their powers are not as cost-effective as points spent by non-mentalists on non-mental powers) as well as characters whose shtick is based heavily on social interaction and interpersonal persuasion and manipulation. I just feel, if the rules are going to be oriented towards this sort of bias, that the mentalist player and NPC should have some options available to counteract it.

[Beast]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

actually it has become easier to get control

3rd edition and before, it was a multiple of your ego per level of control not ego+10/20/30

 

the balance is you have a shot at 1 shoting vs 3 or 4 hits and you have the bonus of adding more fire power to your side

 

a 2d6 major transform vs a 10 ego gets you a new team mate in about 3 attacks if you make it vs ecv

less if you leave vs ocv(4d6)

and with this there is no breakout roll

no need to attack again to change commands

target will be pretty much a slavish follower for at least the battle and may even have a warrant for their arrest

 

That's all well and good' date=' but it's not really an argument against providing an option to change the breakout roll to a contested roll rather than a straight roll. A 62% chance that a mental power will be completely ineffective [i']even after it hits and the dice of effect are sufficient to achieve the level needed[/i] is a formula for frustration. I understand the reasons for that, and I understand they have little to do with play balance and everything to do with the comfort level of non-mentalist PCs and their players in game. Put bluntly, a lot of players hate feeling a loss of control over their characters and this sentiment has become embodied in the rules, both with respect to mental powers and with respect to PRE attacks and interaction skills. Unfortunately, this also means that mentalist players and mentalist NPCs get the short end of the stick(the points they spend on their powers are not as cost-effective as points spent by non-mentalists on non-mental powers) as well as characters whose shtick is based heavily on social interaction and interpersonal persuasion and manipulation. I just feel, if the rules are going to be oriented towards this sort of bias, that the mentalist player and NPC should have some options available to counteract it.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

A SPD 5 mentalist with a 12d6 level of power (MC/MI/TP/Mental Blast) is almost always better off playing the percentages and just firing off the mental blast, which will do an average 21 stun against a target without mental defense, one-shotting normals, stunning agents and putting non-bricks halfway towards unconsciousness. Using a mental power burns a phase and in the case of mind control has no better than a 50/50 shot at working. If it doesn't work, that's a whole phase wasted. If they try it twice and it fails on both targets, that's two phases wasted, and the mentalist will almost certainly be double-teamed quickly. In any event a mentalist who takes control of a target is going to become a priority target, and once they get dropped, the control is likely to drop, too. Lots of PC groups make a point of taking out the mentalist first, for the reasons I cited in my previous post. It really never actually balances out for mentalists in the standard rules. Sure, you can use psionic surgery to make someone your semi-permanent slave, in the space of time it'd take to knock them out or kill them, but imo that just tends to highlight the fact the mental powers rules themselves are slightly broken, just a tad.

[Beast]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

you forget that mentalist tend to be in the back row and can fight at extreme ranges as if they are near the front(no range mods)

no 1 type should be the dominate class of character

I see it with the chance to get 1 from the other side to help you out

if you plan a bit better and not always need to go for an ego+30 roll a mentalist can be a very effective

Mega you are going for the top end when you do not need to

an ego+10 mental illusion can throw off the aim of just about any character making them totally ineffective

[megaplayboy]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

you forget that mentalist tend to be in the back row and can fight at extreme ranges as if they are near the front(no range mods)

no 1 type should be the dominate class of character

I see it with the chance to get 1 from the other side to help you out

if you plan a bit better and not always need to go for an ego+30 roll a mentalist can be a very effective

Mega you are going for the top end when you do not need to

an ego+10 mental illusion can throw off the aim of just about any character making them totally ineffective

 

Most of the campaigns I've played (and run) have invoked the "no mentalist snipers" rule...the mentalist has to be physically on the map in combat (or within the same general combat range as the energy projector and power armor guy when doing unmapped combat).

If you invoke the benefits of getting "creative" with lesser levels of effect you are essentially conceding the argument, because 60 AP Mind Control that has a hard time ensuring normals and agents even perform tasks they're normally against doing is pretty useless when compared with a direct attack. Mental illusions could throw off someone's aim, yes, but you can accomplish that more effectively with flash or darkness or even images than you can with something that the target can break out of (even at EGO+10 effect, the target still has a 1 in 6 chance of breaking the effect, while a flash attack might leave them blinded for a whole turn). There's few things you can accomplish with lesser levels of effect on mental powers that aren't done better by other more direct powers (the one exception being telepathy).

 

There's got to be some interim level of effectiveness between "overwhelming" and "largely ineffective". That's what I'm trying to get at here.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

For 60 AP, we have 12d6 MC, or a 9.5d6 MC with CBR. Let's posit a 30 EGO mentalist and a 10 EGO target.

 

Mentalist wants to achieve an EGO +20 effect (30 points). With an average roll in the first scenario (42 pts of effect), he's 10 over what he needs, so the target's breakout roll is reduced by 2, to 9- (40% chance of breakout).

2nd scenario, the mentalist has an EGO roll of 15-, vs. the target's 11-(roughly a 29% chance of breakout). So the mentalist comes out slightly ahead, though they have a harder time reaching a higher level of effect.

 

If you do a pushed HM, and are trying to hit EGO + 30 effect(40 points), then the target's breakout roll in the 1st scenario is reduced by 4, to 7-(16% chance of breakout). In the 2nd scenario, we add about 4.5 d6 to the roll , maybe a -2 to the breakout roll, setting up a 15 vs. 9 roll off (16% chance of breakout). So I don't think it's all that imbalancing.

[Beast]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

the egoist would still be on the board ,but at a range of 30 to 40 hexes

either up high some where or flying

or just buying an N-ray type of sense and get under or behind some hard cover or just plain old stealth in the shadows

 

if you are going to cut out the major effect of mental powers(no range mods)then you should recost mental powers to reflect that as you are putting a limitation on 1 class of character that other need not follow or does not affect them

 

like you said earlier you play the odds

3 to 4 shots to take out a character

1/3+ chance of taking control of the enemy

if you get that 1/3+ roll you made it

you are looking at MC as an all or nothing over the course of 1 attack

and not the total 3 or 4 attacks it may take to bring an enemy down with others

odds say that you will get control as fast or faster depending on how many hits it would take to take the target down

 

you are also not taking into account rat packing a target

having 2+ mentalists working together

giving the same command to drive down the targets ego roll

 

you can also prep your target with an ego drain(I dislike that you cannot in effect go past 0 as this would make mental powers more effective in low point games

 

the way things are mental powers are about as balanced as they can get

they just need somebody who can game them for a better effect that you can say with any character that does stun based attacks

mentalist can be the weakest and the strongest links

that are harder to play than any other type of character

but if you know how to play and build them they are one of the strongest

 

 

Most of the campaigns I've played (and run) have invoked the "no mentalist snipers" rule...the mentalist has to be physically on the map in combat (or within the same general combat range as the energy projector and power armor guy when doing unmapped combat).

If you invoke the benefits of getting "creative" with lesser levels of effect you are essentially conceding the argument, because 60 AP Mind Control that has a hard time ensuring normals and agents even perform tasks they're normally against doing is pretty useless when compared with a direct attack. Mental illusions could throw off someone's aim, yes, but you can accomplish that more effectively with flash or darkness or even images than you can with something that the target can break out of (even at EGO+10 effect, the target still has a 1 in 6 chance of breaking the effect, while a flash attack might leave them blinded for a whole turn). There's few things you can accomplish with lesser levels of effect on mental powers that aren't done better by other more direct powers (the one exception being telepathy).

 

There's got to be some interim level of effectiveness between "overwhelming" and "largely ineffective". That's what I'm trying to get at here.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

They're not balanced, because they're the only power set you have to "game out" in order to make them as effective as all the others. I pointed out my advantage "contested breakout roll" would only slightly reduce the initial breakout chance and at the higher dice levels it tends to balance out with unmodified mental powers.

 

what you're describing in terms of tactics skirts pretty close to the "mentalist sniper syndrome", imo. That in itself tends to be imbalancing AND to not do the rep of mentalist PCs any favors. If you need a couple full moves to close with one, or have to take major range penalties to target one, that's getting pretty similar to being "slightly off the board". A character who's really difficult to target effectively is probably one you wouldn't want to be as effective with their own attacks, I guess. In my settings I tend to want them to be both more open to being attacked themselves, and more able to be effective with their own offensive powers.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

Mental powers are the only offensive powers that might not work at all on normals.

 

Think about it.

4d6 KA--dying normal.

Flash--normal blinded or deafened for a whole turn.

60 STR grab or 40 STR TK grab--normal's never getting out.

Entangle--normal's never getting out.

Major(10 point per level) Transform--normal's getting turned into whatever is specified.

Drain--normal loses lots of whatever gets drained.

12d6 Blast or punch--normal is in lala land and seriously injured if not actually dying.

Pretty much every offensive power in the book is guaranteed effective on normals, so long as a pretty easy to hit roll is made.

 

Except mental powers. That normal makes their breakout roll, you just blew a phase trying to use your awesome psionic powers to get the normal to do something they're normally against doing. And right there my suspension of disbelief dies a horrible death, and my sense of what's fair and not fair kicks in.

[Beast]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

then you need to recost the mental attacks

they come with no range mod why not use it if you have it

some characters are intended to be range players

if the brick 1/2 moves and punchs then why spend points for ranged attacks

combat needs to be tactical and there needs to terrain used

other wise you might as well use a checker board

 

mentalist by genre are almost always back row support unless you have a Phoenix(Jean Grey)types

who can hang and bang with Galactus

what it is, is that unless you are going to do a bit of prep of the target or go for a lower level of effect that has a greater chance of effecting the target

60 active is too low

75 active is where you want to be

you have added on average 10.5 pts to the effect adding a -2 to breakout rolls

 

I think a 1/6 chance to break out is way over kill from your earlier post

 

 

They're not balanced, because they're the only power set you have to "game out" in order to make them as effective as all the others. I pointed out my advantage "contested breakout roll" would only slightly reduce the initial breakout chance and at the higher dice levels it tends to balance out with unmodified mental powers.

 

what you're describing in terms of tactics skirts pretty close to the "mentalist sniper syndrome", imo. That in itself tends to be imbalancing AND to not do the rep of mentalist PCs any favors. If you need a couple full moves to close with one, or have to take major range penalties to target one, that's getting pretty similar to being "slightly off the board". A character who's really difficult to target effectively is probably one you wouldn't want to be as effective with their own attacks, I guess. In my settings I tend to want them to be both more open to being attacked themselves, and more able to be effective with their own offensive powers.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

I should also note that this level of ineffectiveness is the state of affairs against targets with 10 EGO, 3 DMCV and 0 points of Mental Defense. Should the target have a 13-20 EGO and 5-10 points of MD, the only mental powers that still remain somewhat effective are surface/hidden telepathy (because you can get one piece of info before they break out) and Mental Blast(which now will do about as much damage as an average punch or blast).

 

I don't see why it's necessary to reward characters who didn't bother buying up their EGO or getting any mental defense, while punishing characters who thought they were buying enough to at least be able to roll over normals and agents without much difficulty (playing straight by the rules, they really can't). If mentalists become too effective, people buy up their ego a bit and add some mental defense. If killing attacks become too effective, people buy some more resistant defense. It's the way the game works.

[Yansuf]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

Mental powers are the only offensive powers that might not work at all on normals.

 

Think about it.

4d6 KA--dying normal.

Flash--normal blinded or deafened for a whole turn.

60 STR grab or 40 STR TK grab--normal's never getting out.

Entangle--normal's never getting out.

Major(10 point per level) Transform--normal's getting turned into whatever is specified.

Drain--normal loses lots of whatever gets drained.

12d6 Blast or punch--normal is in lala land and seriously injured if not actually dying.

Pretty much every offensive power in the book is guaranteed effective on normals, so long as a pretty easy to hit roll is made.

 

Except mental powers. That normal makes their breakout roll, you just blew a phase trying to use your awesome psionic powers to get the normal to do something they're normally against doing. And right there my suspension of disbelief dies a horrible death, and my sense of what's fair and not fair kicks in.

 

Hmmmm, you know, Megaplayboy may have a point here.

 

I can see the breakout rolls for mind control, but I'm not sure I buy the rational for illusions. The breakout roll is your mind fighting the effect; for a plausible illusion (such as "the door is one meter to the left" for the door down the hall that you just entered) your mind has no reason to fight this.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

then you need to recost the mental attacks

they come with no range mod why not use it if you have it

some characters are intended to be range players

if the brick 1/2 moves and punchs then why spend points for ranged attacks

combat needs to be tactical and there needs to terrain used

other wise you might as well use a checker board

 

mentalist by genre are almost always back row support unless you have a Phoenix(Jean Grey)types

who can hang and bang with Galactus

what it is, is that unless you are going to do a bit of prep of the target or go for a lower level of effect that has a greater chance of effecting the target

60 active is too low

75 active is where you want to be

you have added on average 10.5 pts to the effect adding a -2 to breakout rolls

 

I think a 1/6 chance to break out is way over kill from your earlier post

 

Not really, a mentalist or energy projector who gets grabbed by a brick is basically a goner within a phase or two, and their chances of breaking free are much lower than one in six.

I'd note that that particular 1 in 6 chance(which was identical for both regular and CBR MC) was in the scenario of a pushed, haymakered mental power (i.e., the absolute maximum power output). I don't particularly think that's all that imbalancing, considering how effective an 18d6 punch or blast is in a 60 AP setting(even bricks will get stunned, everyone else will probably get knocked out or be very close to it). So a pushed haymakered mental power such as MI or MC should probably take a 10 EGO, 0 mental defense target out of the combat toot suite.

 

Here's a thought--just buy some extra EGO or a few points of MD for the non-mentalist character. The cost-benefit ratio is quite good for that.

[Beast]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

and that is why it would be lower on the effect chart than saying

I just moved you into a dark box and you cannot feel any walls or even a floor

 

 

Hmmmm, you know, Megaplayboy may have a point here.

 

I can see the breakout rolls for mind control, but I'm not sure I buy the rational for illusions. The breakout roll is your mind fighting the effect; for a plausible illusion (such as "the door is one meter to the left" for the door down the hall that you just entered) your mind has no reason to fight this.

[Beast]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

not really

I just do a mental illusion of me shrinking and slipping out of your grasp and running away

ego+10 easy

but I'll even go with ego+20

average of 42 for effect is 12 over your ego so you get a 9 or less roll

I push 1 die so I average 45.5 and now your roll is 8 or less

75% chance of escape vs 50/50 if I had the same strength as you I'll take that bet any day

 

In transform I would go with severe in 6th or major in 5th at 15 pts per die as both are the top end and making somebody your loyal willing slave is what we are talking about

 

Not really, a mentalist or energy projector who gets grabbed by a brick is basically a goner within a phase or two, and their chances of breaking free are much lower than one in six.

I'd note that that particular 1 in 6 chance(which was identical for both regular and CBR MC) was in the scenario of a pushed, haymakered mental power (i.e., the absolute maximum power output). I don't particularly think that's all that imbalancing, considering how effective an 18d6 punch or blast is in a 60 AP setting(even bricks will get stunned, everyone else will probably get knocked out or be very close to it). So a pushed haymakered mental power such as MI or MC should probably take a 10 EGO, 0 mental defense target out of the combat toot suite.

 

Here's a thought--just buy some extra EGO or a few points of MD for the non-mentalist character. The cost-benefit ratio is quite good for that.

[Beast]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

I quite agree with you on buying even minimal amounts of ego and mental def (5 to 10 pts)

in 6th I'd sell down the OMCV and DMCV to 1 and spend the points on ego

 

and you are taking things to extremes with pushed haymakers

those are usually left as the last ditch effort as the -5 DCV makes you so much of a target for others that might have autofire,push,be at longer range that you make too tempting a target to leave alone

 

 

 

 

Not really, a mentalist or energy projector who gets grabbed by a brick is basically a goner within a phase or two, and their chances of breaking free are much lower than one in six.

I'd note that that particular 1 in 6 chance(which was identical for both regular and CBR MC) was in the scenario of a pushed, haymakered mental power (i.e., the absolute maximum power output). I don't particularly think that's all that imbalancing, considering how effective an 18d6 punch or blast is in a 60 AP setting(even bricks will get stunned, everyone else will probably get knocked out or be very close to it). So a pushed haymakered mental power such as MI or MC should probably take a 10 EGO, 0 mental defense target out of the combat toot suite.

 

Here's a thought--just buy some extra EGO or a few points of MD for the non-mentalist character. The cost-benefit ratio is quite good for that.

[torchwolf]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

They're not balanced, because they're the only power set you have to "game out" in order to make them as effective as all the others. I pointed out my advantage "contested breakout roll" would only slightly reduce the initial breakout chance and at the higher dice levels it tends to balance out with unmodified mental powers.

 

what you're describing in terms of tactics skirts pretty close to the "mentalist sniper syndrome", imo. That in itself tends to be imbalancing AND to not do the rep of mentalist PCs any favors. If you need a couple full moves to close with one, or have to take major range penalties to target one, that's getting pretty similar to being "slightly off the board". A character who's really difficult to target effectively is probably one you wouldn't want to be as effective with their own attacks, I guess. In my settings I tend to want them to be both more open to being attacked themselves, and more able to be effective with their own offensive powers.

 

I'm having a look at 4th Edition Ultimate Mentalist, also by Steve Long. Some of that stuff never made it to the 5th Edition version.

 

There are some optional Mental Maneuvers that allows you to achieve an effect even if the required result level isn't rolled.

 

Coercion (incremental Mind Control), Mind Probe (Telepathy), Mind Search (Mind Scan) - nothing corresponding to a "partial" Mental Illusion, however that would work.

 

They all allow a target to partially resist, with a lesser effect of the Mental Power required, and 3 extra levels of effect:

-1 to -10

-11 to -20

-21 to -30

 

Below that, no effects. Is this something along the lines you were thinking?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

I'm having a look at 4th Edition Ultimate Mentalist, also by Steve Long. Some of that stuff never made it to the 5th Edition version.

 

There are some optional Mental Maneuvers that allows you to achieve an effect even if the required result level isn't rolled.

 

Coercion (incremental Mind Control), Mind Probe (Telepathy), Mind Search (Mind Scan) - nothing corresponding to a "partial" Mental Illusion, however that would work.

 

They all allow a target to partially resist, with a lesser effect of the Mental Power required, and 3 extra levels of effect:

-1 to -10

-11 to -20

-21 to -30

 

Below that, no effects. Is this something along the lines you were thinking?

some of it, yes.

[torchwolf]

Re: Proposal for new mental power advantages

 

Contested Breakout Roll (CBR) (+1/4): With this advantage' date=' the target's breakout roll is converted to an EGO vs. EGO roll, modified by the amount by which the points of effect exceeded the level needed. The mentalist rolls their EGO roll first, modified by any assigned mental combat levels, and the target then has to make their roll by an amount equal to or greater than the amount the mentalist made their roll by in order to break free of the effects of the mental power.[/quote']

 

To quickly disassemble and mangle Ultimate Mentalist 4th Ed ideas and mix them with 5ER and 6E:

The ability to affect a target's EGO Roll could be done with Change Environment; Only to affect Mental Breakout Rolls (-1/2).

Whether built with 5ER BOECV or 6E ACV/AVAD/LOS, it could be used in conjunction - or you could allow a Mentalist to buy ECV/MCV levels for other Powers than Mind Scan; or separate Combat Skill Levels.

 

Skilled Effect (+1/4): with this advantage, the mentalist may attempt to achieve an effect higher than that rolled on the dice, with the target receiving a bonus to their breakout roll equal to +1 per 5 points rolled below the level attempted (i.e., if one rolls an amount equal to EGO +10, and the effect desired is EGO + 20, then the target gets a +4 to their attempt to break out). This breakout attempt takes place immediately after the target is hit by the power.

Skilled Effect may be combined with Contested Breakout Roll, in which case the target receives the above bonus while rolling the EGO v. EGO roll contest to break free.

 

The idea of lesser levels from UM 4e fits nicely with this. The idea was to allow the target to take Mind Control more literally; adjust current thoughts for Telepathy; get more DMCV/EMCV vs Mind Scan-based attacks; etc.

How about this: per each level you need that is higher than you roll, the target gets the option to alter the effects slightly.

 

Desired Effect: Target May (with successful EGO Roll):

-1 Level influence results in a minor, roundabout way ("forgetting" to remove safety before shooting the first shot when Mind Controlled; attempt to alter a surface thought) OR get +2 to Breakout Roll (target's choice)

-2 Levels influence results in a moderate way (using -1 modifier for attack when Mind Controlled; attempt to alter a deep thought) OR get +4 to Breakout Roll (target's choice)

-3 Levels influence results in a major way (using -3 modifier for attack when Mind Controlled; attempt to alter a memory) OR get +6 to Breakout Roll (target's choice)

 

You could use the Skilled or a similar Advantage for this ability, or allow the option for free; it doesn't really affect your capability that much, and it gives the target a chance to fight back. A compromise.

 

I think Skilled Effect should probably be a +1/2 or +3/4' date=' but I was trying to price it appropriately for pulp, fantasy and sci fi settings.[/quote']

 

You might set it at +1/2 and vary it up or down per campaign?

 

Any of this useful for your purposes? I'm a bit tired so may be slightly incoherent...