Just Joe Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 I've been playing Hero System for over 20 years and it seems like I ought to be able to answer this question myself . . . but I can't, so I'm swallowing my pride and asking. As I read the "linked" limitation (in 5ER), I do not see an option to have two powers that can each be used if and only if the other is used. I'm thinking of something like an eb + flash which can only be used together (i.e., the eb can only be used with the flash and the flash can only be used with the eb) -- it would seem natural that they would need to be used in proportion to one another, but I'm not sure how important that is to my question. Is there a way to build powers linked in this way? If so, then how? If not, then why the heck not?? I mean these as 5th edition questions, but if there is a noteworthy difference in 6th edition (or in an earlier edition), I'd be interested in hearing about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sociotard Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Question about Linked Powers There was this bit from the FAQs Is there a Limitation value for a Linked power that must be used whenever the greater power is used? Not specifically, no. The value of that Limitation would depend on just how Limiting it is. If the Linked power cost a whole bunch of END, or otherwise inconvenienced the user, then maybe it would be worth 1/4 more Limitation. If there’s no particular drawback, or a rare drawback, it’s probably just +0 more Limitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Question about Linked Powers Are you talking about putting Linked on both powers? If so, I've seen it done, I would look really carefully at it, but I don't see any particular issue with the concept. If I can't use A without using B, and I can't use B without using A - both should have Linked. As Linked normally stands if B has the Limitation, then A can be used without it. So putting the Limitation on A as well, means you can't use either without using both. What that's worth, is up to the GM, ultimately, but the concept it sound. IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EverKnight Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Question about Linked Powers 6th edition deals with jointly linked powers. In some cases a character may want to have a lesser power that he must use whenever he uses the greater power. In other words the powers are jointly Linked, because neither can be used without the other (as compared to the usual arrangement, where the character can use the greater power without activating the lesser power). Typically this doesn’t affect the value of Linked; it’s a -0 addition to the Limitation’s value. But if the lesser power costs a lot of END or otherwise inconveniences the character significantly, the GM might grant an additional ¼ more Limitation. Alternately, the GM may give the lesser power the standard -½ Linked value, and let the greater power take a -¼ Linked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Joe Posted October 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Question about Linked Powers Sociotard: Thanks. I didn't expect there to be anything about this in the FAQ, but I now realize that by not checking I was being faithless and lazy. On the other hand, I never would have read the useful additional replies if I had just gone to the FAQ. ghost-angel: Yes and no. I was not specifically suggesting this because I thought the rules made it clear that one may not do this. But it would seem like the logical solution. And the last sentence of the 6th edition quote from EverKnight appears to be just this suggestion (with the -1/4 limitation for the greater power being consistent with 5th edition rules). EverKnight: Thanks. That's one more small reason to buy 6th, IMO. It explicitly addresses something that should be addressed while allowing for different solutions depending on GM judgment. Not a huge deal, but nice. Here's one more thing to consider. If two attack powers are iff-linked*, then it seems to me that one ought to be allowed to buy 2-point OCV levels that apply to the use of the combined power -- because by SFX it's really one power (at least, in many cases it would be). But then this is an advantage, albeit a small one, of iff-linking the powers -- which the GM should consider when deciding on what lim values she will allow. * "iff" being an abbreviation for the biconditional "if and only if". Alternatively, one could say "doubly linked" or "2X-linked". In any event, it seems to me that there ought to be an accepted abbreviation for powers linked in the way we have been discussing in this thread. It also seems to me that such linked powers should not be especially rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Question about Linked Powers HD allows you to buy a 'compound power' which consists of two powers defined as one and you can link them. If you DO link them and get hit by a drain BOTH are drained by the full amount of the drain. If you do not link them then the 'whole power' is drained - which means they will take 'pro-rated' adjustment damage: depends what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valsegul Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Question about Linked Powers I am with Sean on this one. Sounds like what you are looking for is compound power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Question about Linked Powers Compound Powers are usually Linked... kind of what makes them Compound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Question about Linked Powers Compound Powers are usually Linked... kind of what makes them Compound. I rule it that if you have a compound power that is not linked, it is a single 'new' power: so 40 points of Blast and 20 points of Flash as a compound power is a single power: get hit by a 15 point 'all attacks' drain and you lose 10 points off the blast and 5 off the flash, not 15 of each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Question about Linked Powers ... interesting. Considering there's nothing about Linked or a Compound Construct regarding Adjustment Powers I find that... unduly harsh. If I want a Linked or Unlinked Compound Construct to Drain simultaneously I'll add Unified Power. After all: Dispel Poison shouldn't have any effect on my Poisoned Knife built as "HKA:Knife+DrainCON:Poison" . . . Just like I have to take the right Advantages to model my desired effects, I shouldn't get hit by Limitations I didn't take, to model my desired effects. Compound Power is short hand. Nothing more. Usually short hand to place two or more Powers in the same slot of a Framework. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Question about Linked Powers ... interesting. Considering there's nothing about Linked or a Compound Construct regarding Adjustment Powers I find that... unduly harsh. If I want a Linked or Unlinked Compound Construct to Drain simultaneously I'll add Unified Power. After all: Dispel Poison shouldn't have any effect on my Poisoned Knife built as "HKA:Knife+DrainCON:Poison" . . . Just like I have to take the right Advantages to model my desired effects, I shouldn't get hit by Limitations I didn't take, to model my desired effects. Compound Power is short hand. Nothing more. Usually short hand to place two or more Powers in the same slot of a Framework. You buy a knife and you buy poison: you don't make it a compound power or link it: sure you have to use the knife to deliver the poison, but that is the (illegal*) NND condition: causing at least 1 Body to the opponent and they can't have LS: poison immunity. Two seperate powers. One is conditional on the other 'working': that might well be a limitation in some cases, but then the value depends on how likely the first one is to 'work'. I've always played 'linked' as a proper limitation i.e. genuinely limiting: having to use two attacks at once is almost tactical common sense (especially where they are designed to compliment each other) - it certainly is not worth -1/2 IMO. 'Must MPA with: X' is not much of a problem, really: anything to put the opponent down. *Rules? Don't worry about them, I have new, shinier ones.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Question about Linked Powers Since a Poisoned Knife is a Rule Book Example of Linked... I'm going to just state with all due respect - your answer isn't even close to what I'd consider RAW, in this case. There is nothing about Linked or Compound Powers that says they have to take the same Limitations either. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Question about Linked Powers Since a Poisoned Knife is a Rule Book Example of Linked... I'm going to just state with all due respect - your answer isn't even close to what I'd consider RAW, in this case. There is nothing about Linked or Compound Powers that says they have to take the same Limitations either. . . Yes, well, that's the problem isn't it? 'Linked' doesn't work for a poisoned knife - the poison only actually works if the knife gets in: that is a different limitation: conditional power, or somesuch. We really need to think this stuff all the way through. Linked works for powers that go off at the same time, like Blast and (sight) flash, and that work independently of each other otherwise (although -1/2? Really?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Re: Question about Linked Powers Hmm. Well, to be fair, you could spread most of your poisons on a sword or arrow or spearhead just as easily as your knife. So maybe that is a good example of a power that might better be built with a Limitation that is similar-to-but-not-quite Linked (but I think it's fair because that and/or the damage requirement is usually a separate Limitation or additional condition on top of the NND condition, which often has to do with Life Support). But in any case it is a good point that some powers like that might be built with Linked but shouldn't really be treated as a Unified Power. Then again, should powers that are both linked and Drained together really qualify for full value on both Limitations? I'm not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Re: Question about Linked Powers I would say it has both... Linked (can't poison them without stabbing them) and Must Do BODY (poison doesn't work if the knife doesn't do enough damage). But it is a text book example of Linked: I stab you and you get poisoned. Either way, they aren't the same Power. They are two powers that work together. Which is what Linked is. Two powers that work together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Joe Posted October 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Re: Question about Linked Powers I had been using compound powers in HD in a manner similar to what Sean Waters describes, without realizing (until a few hours before starting this thread) that compound powers are explicitly mentioned in the rule book (5ER, at least). They are described as a (the?) way to build linked powers and as the way to build partially-limited (or -advantaged) powers. As for linked powers, I'm inclined to say that they should not be built as a compound power unless iff-linked. When iff-linked, I would regard them in many respects as a single power, but would still apply limitations as per the 5ER, FAQ, and 6th edition, as mentioned in the first few replies in this thread. As for partially-limited (and -advantaged) powers, I'm am thrilled to learn that this is the way to build them. They never caused me problems with paper and pencil (where it didn't much matter whether one called them "compound powers"), but I had not figured out how to build them in HD. I had even started to wonder if they weren't allowed any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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