Get away from me.

[Fearghus]

I had this concept for a power I wanted to add to a character but I am not certain what is the most effective way of building it.

 

The concept for the power is simple. If the character ever found himself surrounded and overwhelmed he could emit some sort of shock wave that would throw anyone near him away from him. Ideally this would do no damage (accept the damage taken from knockback)

 

I originally thought there was a limitation Only to do knockback but could not find that in the base book. I do not own any of the Ultimate _____ books so a limitation might be in one of them, but I was was thinking someone else might be able to put their hands on it if it exists.

 

So I am thinking build the power as Energy Blast, Radius or Explosion (I think explosion fits the concept better), Double knockback, no range, Only to do knockback (If it exists)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Get away from me.

 

I'd go with Area of Effect Telekinesis, personally. Or maybe a Change Environment, but the effects there would probably be pretty limited. You'd also need some kind of Hole in the Middle or Personal Immunity.

[Heroic Halfwit]

Re: Get away from me.

 

6th Edition:

 

"Back off!" 3 meters Teleportation Usable by Others, Grantor controls power utterly, Grantor pays END, Grantor can only grant power, Recipient must be within limited range of Grantor, Area of Effect Radius, Personal Immunity. Position Shift. 1 Fixed Location "3 meters directly away from character, prone" Limited Power can only teleport to fixed location.

 

[Active Cost 12: Real Cost 6]

 

Linked with 3d6 Physical Blast, (if you care for the KB damage)

 

FRED

3" Teleport Usable as an Attack, Fixed Location, Only to Fixed Location, Area of Effect Radius, Personal Immunity. Position Shift.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Get away from me.

 

A variation on the following build could also work.

 

30 Hand Clap!: Touch Group Flash 8d6' date=' Does Knockback (+1/4), Explosion (+1/2), Double Knockback (+3/4) (60 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Restrainable (Claps Hands; -1/2) - END=6[/quote']

 

Note that according to the 'official' ruling from Steve Long, a Flash with Does KB only affects targets that have the specified 'sense'. I personally would houserule around that issue.

 

[Shinobi Killfis]

Re: Get away from me.

 

A variation on the following build could also work.

 

 

 

Note that according to the 'official' ruling from Steve Long, a Flash with Does KB only affects targets that have the specified 'sense'. I personally would houserule around that issue.

 

 

That's how I did it in 5e. I found that with double knockback being a 3/4 advantage it dropped any EB down to the level it wouldn't do damage anyways if this was in a multipower so doing a non-damage power like flash works great. If I could figure a universal thing to dispel that would work as well.

[Ice9]

Re: Get away from me.

 

Dispel SPD? Because it stuns people momentarily? I think it'd re-activate on their next phase, but that next phase wouldn't happen as soon. Actually, that could be fairly potent:

 

Dispel SPD 10d6, Does Knockback, Double Knockback

On average, 3 SPD dispelled, 13" knockback.

 

If you go by the official rule on changing SPD, I believe they wouldn't get a phase until their old and new SPD shared one, potentially losing most of a turn. Even with the (IMO) saner "until their old and new SPD would both have had a phase", they still lose 1-2 phases, depending on when you hit them.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Get away from me.

 

Dispel SPD? Because it stuns people momentarily? I think it'd re-activate on their next phase, but that next phase wouldn't happen as soon. Actually, that could be fairly potent:

 

Dispel SPD 10d6, Does Knockback, Double Knockback

On average, 3 SPD dispelled, 13" knockback.

 

If you go by the official rule on changing SPD, I believe they wouldn't get a phase until their old and new SPD shared one, potentially losing most of a turn. Even with the (IMO) saner "until their old and new SPD would both have had a phase", they still lose 1-2 phases, depending on when you hit them.

 

Dispel is all or nothing.

 

From 5er, page 149:

 

To use Dispel, the character must declare what power or ability he’s trying to Dispel, then make an Attack Roll. If he succeeds, he rolls and totals the Dispel dice and subtracts the target’s Power Defense (if any). If the remaining total exceeds the Active Point total of the target power, the target power is Dispelled — that is, it stops working. Dispel is an all or nothing attack: it either completely turns off a Power or it has no effect.

[Shinobi Killfis]

Re: Get away from me.

 

A whole lot of Ugly

 

Dispel Comeliness in 5e??

 

8d6 dispel, does knockback, double knockback, Explosion, PI, no range.

 

Everyone near by turns so ugly they physically recoil from themselves.

 

In 6e Dispel PD would work well vs everyone but bricks, maybe dispel ED or dispel recovery.

 

Dispelling a Stat or anything persistent while doable always seems weird to me.

 

Before I heard the ruling on you have to have the sense for it to effect you for KB flashes, for dispel I had a repulsar ray that was dispel knockback resistance, does knockback, double knockback. But I guess it would not work on people without knockback resistance then.

 

It usually hit for 20" of knockback, people usually knocked enough off with the roll that it did 12d6 if they hit something really solid, but they did go flying.

 

Now you just have to megascale it for more fun.

[IKerensky]

Re: Get away from me.

 

DISPEL wont work on SPD, ED, PD or any other Stats (figured or not) DISPEL can only be used against Power... What you are looking for is Drain...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Get away from me.

 

Blast 4d6, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2) (50 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)

 

The blast will do 4d6 direct damage - not enough to hurt most people - but will average 16-2d6 for KB on anyone within 4 metres (except the character themself). This is almost bound to do KB on all bet the strongest or best anchored opponents. You may want to limit the maximum KB to (say) 8m - otherwise you could be chucking people 28m or more on a good roll.

[Ice9]

Re: Get away from me.

 

Dispel is all or nothing.

Whoops, must have been remembering wrong. Well that tones down the crazy, but you can still do:

 

Suppress SPD 6d6, Does Knockback, Double Knockback

Only 5" average knockback, but it does lower someone's SPD by two points, which is enough to make them miss 1-2 phases, depending on when you do it. And you don't need to maintain it - just having changed their SPD for a single phase gives you the same stalling power.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Get away from me.

 

Note that according to the 'official' ruling from Steve Long, a Flash with Does KB only affects targets that have the specified 'sense'. I personally would houserule around that issue.

 

 

If you're going to houserule around something like this, you might as well house rule around the restriction on Dispel so Shinobi can have his Knockback ray. Or make it more useful by making it a "Solid Photonic Field" or sumsuch, and make the Flash vs Sight Group that can throw people back.

 

Before I heard the ruling on you have to have the sense for it to effect you for KB flashes' date=' for dispel I had a repulsar ray that was dispel knockback resistance, does knockback, double knockback. But I guess it would not work on people without knockback resistance then.[/quote']

 

That restriction *tends* to limit the limburger. But you could make a seperate device (A "Stabilizer Field Generator") that gave everybody within a certain range of you 1" of Knockback Resistance.

 

It usually hit for 20" of knockback' date=' people usually knocked enough off with the roll that it did 12d6 if they hit something really solid, but they did go flying.[/quote']

 

10d6 Dispell - Does Double Knockback(1/4 + 3/4) (60 AP) produces ~20 Knockback BODY, minus ~7 on the Knockback dice, for ~13". ~16.5" against flyers.

 

Definately limburger.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Get away from me.

 

I may be way out of line here, but what is wrong with simply building it as an attack using, you know, 'Blast', or TK? They are both specifically powers that allow you to move someone through impact or the application of force.

 

I mean, the concept is a shock wave. Why make it more complicated? I appreciate that 'Does KB' exists in the system, but surely we start with the concept and get the best fit for that, rather than simply approaching it from the standpoint of what the most combat efficient build is then retrofitting it to the concept? Touch flash and SPD suppress and such are not screaming 'shock wave' to me: why should people go numb (and not, for instance, deaf?)? Why should they slow down? What is the actual mechanism at work here? Why use a concept you are going to have to house rule around to make it fit?

[Fearghus]

Re: Get away from me.

 

I may be way out of line here, but what is wrong with simply building it as an attack using, you know, 'Blast', or TK? They are both specifically powers that allow you to move someone through impact or the application of force.

 

I mean, the concept is a shock wave. Why make it more complicated? I appreciate that 'Does KB' exists in the system, but surely we start with the concept and get the best fit for that, rather than simply approaching it from the standpoint of what the most combat efficient build is then retrofitting it to the concept? Touch flash and SPD suppress and such are not screaming 'shock wave' to me: why should people go numb (and not, for instance, deaf?)? Why should they slow down? What is the actual mechanism at work here? Why use a concept you are going to have to house rule around to make it fit?

 

I think they are trying to get around my original stated concept of not doing damage accept for knock back. I am enjoying the variety of ways around it actually. You are right though. a normal EB would be more strait forward, but a flash doesn't actually do any real damage and seems to work well for the build. Especially since I intended this to be a sort of get out of Dodge sort of power. It's only real function is to facilitate escape.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Get away from me.

 

I may be way out of line here' date=' but what is wrong with simply building it as an attack using, you know, 'Blast', or TK? They are both specifically powers that allow you to move someone through impact or the application of force.[/quote']

 

I would suspect more that they are trying to use Dispel or Flash because those Powers can cost only 3 Base Points per die of effect, so you'll get more bang for your buck on the Knockback. I consider that a terrible reason to use one of those Powers for something it is definitely not intended for.

 

Then again, TK (the Power I'd personally choose first for this) is pretty difficult to do this with. Quite expensive. I'd say limit the TK to Only to Throw or Only to Shove, which will likely cut down the cost quite a bit. But it's not likely to become as cost effective as that Blast you suggested. Hmm. I wonder how many GMs would allow the Double Knockback Advantage to double the distance of a Shove performed with TK? I think I'd allow it....

[Shinobi Killfis]

Re: Get away from me.

 

I may be way out of line here, but what is wrong with simply building it as an attack using, you know, 'Blast', or TK? They are both specifically powers that allow you to move someone through impact or the application of force.

 

I mean, the concept is a shock wave. Why make it more complicated? I appreciate that 'Does KB' exists in the system, but surely we start with the concept and get the best fit for that, rather than simply approaching it from the standpoint of what the most combat efficient build is then retrofitting it to the concept? Touch flash and SPD suppress and such are not screaming 'shock wave' to me: why should people go numb (and not, for instance, deaf?)? Why should they slow down? What is the actual mechanism at work here? Why use a concept you are going to have to house rule around to make it fit?

 

Two reasons

1. He asked for no damage attacks, just knock-back.

2. I've always found double knockback poorly priced for most attacks. Lets take a 10d6 EB double knockback AP 87.5, Average knock-back 20". If that was just a EB with no advantages it would be a 17.5D6 EB. You only lose 3" of knockback and you lose a whole heck of a lot of damage. At lower levels its even worse. If you have lets say a 65 point multipower in order to fit a 7d6 double knockback attack you gain a whopping 1" in knock-back. If you price the multipower so it fits the double knock back exactly you gain 2". If it not only did double knock-back but also reduced knock-back resistance it might feel worth it to me. And so I try to come up with powers that cost less than 5 per d6 of damage in order to get more knock-back, especially considering odds are the EB won't penetrate there defenses much if at all anyways.

[phookz]

Re: Get away from me.

 

Blast 4d6' date=' Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Double Knockback (+1/2), Double Knockback (+1/2) (50 Active Points); No Range (-1/2)[/i']

 

The blast will do 4d6 direct damage - not enough to hurt most people - but will average 16-2d6 for KB on anyone within 4 metres (except the character themself). This is almost bound to do KB on all bet the strongest or best anchored opponents. You may want to limit the maximum KB to (say) 8m - otherwise you could be chucking people 28m or more on a good roll.

 

This is what I would do. I'd also add the limitation Only to Do Knockback, which I would think would be worth about -1. That makes the blast do no damage; it just throws you back.

[phookz]

Re: Get away from me.

 

Two reasons

1. He asked for no damage attacks, just knock-back.

2. I've always found double knockback poorly priced for most attacks. Lets take a 10d6 EB double knockback AP 87.5, Average knock-back 20". If that was just a EB with no advantages it would be a 17.5D6 EB. You only lose 3" of knockback and you lose a whole heck of a lot of damage. At lower levels its even worse. If you have lets say a 65 point multipower in order to fit a 7d6 double knockback attack you gain a whopping 1" in knock-back. If you price the multipower so it fits the double knock back exactly you gain 2". If it not only did double knock-back but also reduced knock-back resistance it might feel worth it to me. And so I try to come up with powers that cost less than 5 per d6 of damage in order to get more knock-back, especially considering odds are the EB won't penetrate there defenses much if at all anyways.

 

I'm not getting the same results as you. 10D6 Blast, Double Knockback (+1/2) is 75 AP, not 87.5. The average KB for this would be 26m. For the same number of points you could buy a 15D6 Blast, which would average 16m of KB. That extra 10m of KB equates to 5D6 of damage if the target hits a rigid object, so at 10D6 it's right in line with a +1/2 Advantage.

 

At different dice levels the ratios are on par:

 

4D6 x2 KB vs 6D6 = 2m KB vs 0m KB

8D6 x2 KB vs 12D6 = 18m KB vs 10m KB

12D6 x2 KB vs 18D6 = 34m KB vs 22m KB

16D6 x2 KB vs 24D6 = 50m KB vs 34m KB

 

To put it another way, the advantaged attack will yield the following inches of additional KB effect on average:

4D6: 1"

8D6: 4"

12D6: 6"

16D6: 8"

 

Notice the progression - once we're past the difference of subtracting 7 for average KB modifier, the advantaged attack adds half again it's dice in inches of effect when compared to the same AP total non-advantaged attack. That's spot-on for a +1/2 advantage.

 

Mathematically it works as follows. Consider X = # of dice in the double KB attack, the equation for KB is:

 

Double KB: (2*X) - 7

Non Advantaged same AP: (1.5*X) -7

 

The difference is 1/2 X.

[Ice9]

Re: Get away from me.

 

I would suspect more that they are trying to use Dispel or Flash because those Powers can cost only 3 Base Points per die of effect, so you'll get more bang for your buck on the Knockback. I consider that a terrible reason to use one of those Powers for something it is definitely not intended for.

I consider it an excellent reason to use those powers. Flat out: a power that only does knockback, should do more knockback, for the same Active Points, than one which also does damage. The Only for Knockback limitation? Usually doesn't matter. For the majority of the builds out there, Real Points don't mean crap. If you're using a Multipower, or VPP, or your GM uses AP caps ... then Limitations don't help you one iota.

 

Also, a lot of these constructions were developed in 5E, where Double Knockback's +3/4 cost made it unreasonably expensive, often giving only 1" more Knockback with than without it. For someone still using 5E, this is still the case - Double Knockback is just not worth putting on Energy Blast unless you're already piling on the advantages.

 

And besides - this isn't the cheesy way to do it. The cheesy way to do it is with movement powers Usable as Attack.

[Shinobi Killfis]

Re: Get away from me.

 

I'm not getting the same results as you. 10D6 Blast, Double Knockback (+1/2) is 75 AP,

 

 

Ah, In 6e the advantage is +1/2. It used to be +3/4. I had not noticed the change to +1/2. So yes, in 6e you are right.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Get away from me.

 

And besides - this isn't the cheesy way to do it. The cheesy way to do it is with movement powers Usable as Attack.

 

Hey, maybe that's actually the best build for this effect in any case. Add in Reduced by Mass/Knockback Resistance (-0) and you should be golden (at no Limitation value because it shouldn't be very limiting on top of the UAA conditions for the power not working). In fact, that will probably even do less damage to the target if you smack them into something, since it'll be damage based on an uncontrolled Move Through (MASS+v/6 DCs) rather than from Knockback (essentially v/2 DCs).

 

EDIT: Hmm. Actually I just had an interesting thought. A UAA Movement power is essentially a NND attack. If we reverse the AVAD progression from NND (Rare) to Knockback Resistance (I assume Rare also), that's a +1/2 Advantage. Basically that should be the cost of shifting from a Rare all-or-nothing to a rare incremental defense. Call it: Non-NND (+1/2). I wonder what other UAA, 0-End Uncontrolled, Transform, etc. attacks we could apply that to.

[phookz]

Re: Get away from me.

 

Ah' date=' In 6e the advantage is +1/2. It used to be +3/4. I had not noticed the change to +1/2. So yes, in 6e you are right.[/quote']

 

Hmm, so it is - I just assumed it was +1/2 in 5ER as well. At +3/4 I agree - it is overpriced

[Lucius]

Re: Get away from me.

 

Why should they slow down?

 

Because they're "stunned" and prone?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to buy Aid SPD, Does Knockback, Transdimensional

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Get away from me.

 

6e has an "at the GM's option" stack x2 KB effects multiplicatively, so x8 Knockback is +1.5. It seems like a 1-2d6 EB (depending on the minimum purchase for the campaign) with x8 or x16 KB would do this for an appropriate cost.

 

(Yes, this is super-abusable by buying a 2d6 EB with x1028 knockback, I know, but so long as the end result is a reasonable amount of KB, I think most GMs would allow it).

[SteveZilla]

Re: Get away from me.

 

6e has an "at the GM's option" stack x2 KB effects multiplicatively, so x8 Knockback is +1.5. It seems like a 1-2d6 EB (depending on the minimum purchase for the campaign) with x8 or x16 KB would do this for an appropriate cost.

 

(Yes, this is super-abusable by buying a 2d6 EB with x1028 knockback, I know, but so long as the end result is a reasonable amount of KB, I think most GMs would allow it).

 

 

Hmmm. 2 * 1024 = 2048. 2048 - 7 = 2041" Knockback. or about 2.5 Miles.

 

60 You're Outta Here!: 1 pip RKA + x4,194,304 Knockback(+11)