Natural Toughness ability, how to balance...

[Panpiper]

I'm fiddling with a power effect, meant as an ability for a character that is just plain tough and really hard to hurt. In theory half damage reduction for full points would not be completely inappropriate for the 'conception' of the character, but it would be completely 'not' in keeping with the balance of a campaign for a player character to have that. Furthermore, the intent is not to reduce 'all' damage from any source by half every time. Rather the idea is to give a character who does not wear armor (at least in the beginning of the campaign) some resistant defense none the less. What I have so far is this:

 

16 8PD/8ED resistant (Only stops half the body of an attack, up to 8 body. -1/2)

 

Natural Toughness, how it works:

 

Normally a 8Pd/8Ed resistant defense would stop all body damage up to 8 points, and anything in excess of that would penetrate. So an attack striking for 8 body would do no body damage, while in an attack for 12 body, 4 body damage would be inflicted. This 'Natural Toughness' does not work that way.

 

If an attack doing 18 body struck this defense of 8PD/8ED, 8 body would be stopped and 10 body would get through, just as if the character had normal resistant defense. However if an attack doing 12 body struck this defense of 8PD/8ED, 6 body would be stopped and 6 body would get through. And if an attack doing 6 body struck this defense of 8PD/8ED, only 3 body would be stopped and the rest would get through. Note however that this does round in the characters favor, in an attack doing 1 body, nothing would get through, and in an attack of 3 body, 1 would get through, etc..

 

Note also that the stun damage from an attack is resolved normally as if these defenses were perfectly normal defenses against stun.

 

*

 

Would anyone care to comment? I think this is a reasonable limitation on the power of only -1/2, because the nonresistant defense is not affected. Maybe in fact is should be -1/4?

 

What I am most concerned about is what happens when this character evolves and puts on full plate? Have I thrown all chance of game balance out the window at that point?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Natural Toughness ability, how to balance...

 

Seems OK to me.

 

It's definitely cheaper than using Damage Reduction (even with more Limitations) and it has a hard cap of effectiveness built in.

 

22 Natural Toughness (DR variant): (Total: 45 Active Cost, 22 Real Cost) Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 50% (30 Active Points); Affects BODY Damage Only ((5e, pg 95; 5er, pg 144) Damage Reduction with this Limitation effects STUN or BODY damage only.; -1/2), Only Works Against Killing Attacks (-1/2) (Real Cost: 15) plus Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 25% (15 Active Points); Only Works Against Killing Attacks (-1/2), Affects BODY Damage Only (-1/2) (Real Cost: 7) - END=0

 

12 Natural Toughness (Armor Variant): Armor (8 PD/8 ED) (24 Active Points); Only Works Against Killing Attacks (-1/2), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Takes 1/2 of damage that would otherwise be stopped; -1/2) - END=0

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Natural Toughness ability, how to balance...

 

 

What I am most concerned about is what happens when this character evolves and puts on full plate? Have I thrown all chance of game balance out the window at that point?

 

About the full plate, you could have a lim on the power does not add to "armor". Perhaps a -1/4 ?

[Panpiper]

Re: Natural Toughness ability, how to balance...

 

About the full plate' date=' you could have a lim on the power does not add to "armor". Perhaps a -1/4 ?[/quote']

Two characters side by side, one spent 16 character points to have some defenses that sorta stop killing damage. So that arrow instead of doing 8 damage, now does 4. The other character spent 2 points on armor familiarity and another 4 on two Defensive Penalty Skill Levels, 6 character points, not 16, and he gets a full 8Pd/8Ed resistant. That arrow bounces of the character with the 6 character points spent, and does significant damage to the other who spent 16. I would say that if it does NOT stack with worn armor, that would count for FAR more than a -1/4 limitation. It would have to be such a limitation as to make it cheaper than the 6 points spent by the character who simply wears plate armor.

 

What I am inclined to do rather is to make it such that it DOES stack with armor but to add an additional limitation to it, a pretty major nerf to it frankly. I am thinking of an additional -1/2 limitation 'Only stops as much additional stun as it stops body". So the power above would instead become:

 

Natural Toughness

12 8PD/8ED resistant (Only stops half the body of an attack, up to 8 body. -1/2), (Only stops as much stun as it stops body -1/2)

 

Now if the player wished to also wear plate (likely spending the 6 extra points for familiarity and DPSL), and they got hit with an arrow for 8 body, the arrow would bounce just like it normally would and do stun just as it normally would. If it hit the chest for a X3 stun multiple, it would do 24 stun, minus the 8 resistant PD of the plate armor and minus the 8 normal PD of the character (assuming that is what they had) and so 8 stun is inflicted. However if instead they got hit for 10 damage in the chest, doing also 30 stun, 8 body would be removed due the plate and 1 additional body removed due to the Natural Toughness, with 1 body of damage being inflicted. The 8PD resistant of the armor and the 8PD normal of the character are removed from the 30 stun inflicted PLUS one extra stun removed because the Natural Toughness stopped one body, so a total of 17 stun got stopped with 13 stun being inflicted on the character.

 

I think maybe what I have outlined makes sense. It does not seem to be overpowering, as when we are talking defenses along the lines of plate, it tends to be the stun that will bring down a character in any case and this natual toughness would not create a nigh impossible to penetrate barrier to stun damage. What it would do is make the character much less vulnerable to instant kills in the face of massive attacks like a giant swinging a great axe for 5D6 killing. Such attacks would still be able to stun and knock out said character. And given that the character spent 12 extra character points over and above the other who just wore plate, I can see that as being fair.

 

So while the character in plate gets nailed by the giant for 18 body in the chest, also doing 54 stun, 10 body and 38 stun gets inflicted after defenses. The character with the Natural Toughness, who is 'also' wearing plate, has 5 body inflicted and 33 stun gets through the defense. (The Natural Toughness stopped half the body that got through, so 5 body and so it also stopped 5 extra stun.) The Natural Toughness character is likely to be able to survive this fight as long as the party as a whole wins it. But both characters are none the less feeling the pain, big time, from this opponent. The other character that did not spend the 12 extra character points, if 'he' gets hit again this way, he is likely to be bleeding to death, while the Naturally Tough character can actually take a couple of these hits (assuming he's got the stun).

[Panpiper]

Re: Natural Toughness ability, how to balance...

 

Is this sufficient for a descriptor? Meaning could someone understand the use of this ability having only read the below:

 

 

"Natural Toughness"

Natural toughness (NT) only has an effect when the body done by an attack exceeds the resistant defense of any armor that may be worn. (If no armor is worn, NT still has effect.) Half of the body damage that penetrates the regular resistant armor is reduced by NT, up to the limit of the PD/ED of the NT. The same amount of Stun is also stopped as was stopped by the NT, in addition to the stun stopped by the regular armor and non-resistant PD/ED of the character.

[Panpiper]

Re: 'Heroic' Toughness ability, how to balance...

 

I am 'officially' renaming this ability to 'Heroic' Toughness. I expressly want for players to be able to buy this ability with XP and not just at character creation. If it is 'natural' it might be reasonable to expect they were born with it and so would find it hard to justify buying it up later. If it is 'heroic' it makes sense that the ability might grow with the increasing 'heroism' of the character. Hence:

 

Heroic Toughness

3 2PD/2ED resistant (Only stops half the body of an attack, up to 2 body. -1/2), (Only stops as much stun as it stops body -1/2)

 

"Heroic Toughness" - May be purchased in multiple increments.

Heroic Toughness only has an effect when the body done by an attack exceeds the resistant defense of any armor that may be worn. (Even if no armor is worn, Heroic Toughness has effect.) Half of whatever body damage that penetrated any regular resistant armor is reduced by Heroic Toughness, up to the limit of the PD/ED of the Heroic Toughness. The same amount of Stun is also stopped as was stopped by the Heroic Toughness, in addition to the stun stopped by the regular armor and non-resistant PD/ED of the character.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Natural Toughness ability, how to balance...

 

Hmm...I came up with the following effect years ago for this sort of ability; it was priced to compete w/ Combat Luck as an alternative implementation. Unlike CL which sometimes doesn't work, Hard-bitten always works but always lets some damage through.

 

 

HARD-BITTEN

A variant of Combat Luck, Hard-bitten represents an "only a Flesh Wound" effect rather than the "just missed me" effect of Combat Luck. With this version if the PD or ED of the ability would completely negate all damage, instead it lets a point of BODY and / or STUN through, however if some damage would get through regardless then it works normally applying its full PD or ED to the incoming damage. In this way a Character that has this ability will get scratched up, but avoids the full effect of damage.

 

For instance if a barbarian that had this ability at the 3 PD / 3 ED level were stabbed with a knife that did 1 BODY and 3 STUN they would take 1 BODY and 1 STUN. Similarly if they were stabbed with a dagger that did 4 BODY and 4 STUN they would also take 1 BODY and 1 STUN. In both cases Hard-bitten did not protect them from the first point of damage from the attacks.

 

NOTE: Hard-bitten counts as Combat Luck for any campaign Guidelines regarding the amount of Combat Luck that a Character might have.

 

DAMAGE REDUCTION AS HARD-BITTEN

Only a Flesh Wound: Hard-bitten 3 PD/3 ED (Defined as: Armor [3 PD / 3ED], Does Not Protect Vs. The First Point Of Body Or STUN From Each Separate Increment Of Damage Taken [-1/2])

Real Cost: 6 Points per level

 

 

 

 

From: Barbarians

[Panpiper]

Re: Natural Toughness ability, how to balance...

 

I really liked your "Hard-bitten" Heroic Knack when I read it on your web site a few weeks ago, as I was gearing back into Hero. In fact I included it on a few character designs I was playing with at the time, so much did I like it. I must have missed the full import of it however as I never realized that you had meant for it to be purchasable in greater amounts than the writeup.

 

"Hard-bitten" Real Cost: 4, Active Points: 6

Description: Hard-bitten represents an "only a Flesh Wound" effect rather than the "just missed me" effect of Combat Luck. The character doesn't need to be aware of an attack and can benefit from it even if they put themselves in danger, but this ability does not work vs. the first point of BODY and STUN damage of an attack (other defenses can cover this damage however).

Effect: Hard-bitten 2 PD/2 ED (Defined as: Armor [2 PD / 2 ED], Does Not Protect Vs. The First Point Of Body Or STUN From Each Separate Increment Of Damage Taken [-1/2])

 

I really liked the idea of that first bit of body getting through as one typically sees in painting, the "Hard-bitten" warrior standing amidst the bodies of his fallen foes, with many bleeding cuts on his body, but clearly intact. It very well simulated that effect.

 

In fact it was your idea that led me to "Heroic Toughness". I wanted for characters to be able to get injured, but I did not want for them to be overly vulnerable to one hit kills. I wanted something that would stack with regular defenses, yet mitigate the effect of really powerful hits without reducing overly the ability for stun damage to take them out of the fight.

 

I find the two together work nicely, giving players the option of regularly getting scratched up, but 'only' scratched for 4 pts per 2 PD/2 ED, taking one body per hit using hard-bitten, or for 3 pts per 2 PD/2 ED it only stopping half the body per hit. Points wise it makes sense. The interesting call is how to stack the two? Technically the "Heroic Toughness" would stop the first body from any attack due to rounding in the character's favor, while "Hard-bitten" would let the first body through. I would probably adjudicate that mere scratches are stopped, that in the case of the two knacks being stacked, it is the second body that gets through the "Hard-bitten", not the first.

 

And then there is the question of, what do you do with someone who had bought a couple of levels of both these abilities, who then puts on a suit of armor? Do we adjudicate that the regular armor defense comes off the damage first, then the second point that made it through the armor defense gets inflicted, and finally half of whatever remains after the "Hard-bitten" defense, is reduced by the "Heroic Toughness" up to the maximum amount purchased? That's how I would do it, if I allowed "Hard-Bitten" to stack with armor.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Natural Toughness ability, how to balance...

 

There are specific rules on order of defense; generally focus based def is applied before "intrinsic" def.

 

As far as Hard Bitten and Heroic Toughness...I would consider both of them to be peers w/ Combat Luck and would cap them accordingly.

 

As far as stacking, I would say that Force Wall / Barrier comes into play first, usually unless it has odd SFX, as it explicitly stops attacks from reaching the target unless breached.

 

Combat Luck would occur next as its SFX is "didn't get hit in the first place"

 

Force Fields kick in next, generally, unless their SFX were odd.

 

Then gear based / foci Armor would apply as it is a hard candy coated shell around the character.

 

I would apply Heroic Toughness next if any damage remained.

 

Anything that got past that, Hard Bitten would take priority last because it specifically wants to deal with damage that actually gets applied to the characters BODY total end ensure that on point does make it through.

 

Finally Damage Reduction kicks in; Damage Reduction can't reduce damage to 0, so it does't interfere w/ Hard Bitten.

[Panpiper]

Re: Natural Toughness ability, how to balance...

 

Assume we have a character that has purchased 6 PD/6 ED of "Hard-bitten" and 6 PD/6 ED of "Heroic Toughness". Very much enjoying the idea of being impossible to kill, they also wear full plate for an additional 8 PD/8 ED. Feeling understandably invulnerable, they saunter up to the war troll, bravely accepting the first swing of the troll. The troll lands a hit, rolling a decent damage roll on four dice of 16 damage.

 

8 points are removed by the plate, leaving 8 more to resolve. Next up is the "Heroic Toughness" which stops half the damage up to the maximum of the "Heroic Toughness". Well, half of 8 is 4 (which is less than the 6 this "Heroic Toughness" can absorb) and so four get through. That's it, the player takes 4 body. The "Hard-Bitten" never comes into play. Stun for the attack was a multiple of 3 doing 48 stun. Regular PD (assume 8), Armor and "Hard-Bitten" all apply their defense against the stun, so remove 22 points from the stun damage, leaving 26. The "Heroic Toughness" only removes as much stun as it stopped body, in this case 4, so a total of 22 stun is inflicted on the character.

 

The character is stunned. The troll takes a second swing at the half DCV character trying to recover from his overconfidence. Maybe critical hits are in effect in this game, maybe the troll landed a good hit location, but the troll manages to do 24 damage. 8 points are removed by the plate, leaving 16 more to resolve. Next up is the heroic toughness which stops half the damage up to the maximum of the "Heroic Toughness". It can only stop 6, 6 body gets inflicted leaving 4 more to be resolved on the "Hard-Bitten". 1 body automatically gets through, then the "Hard-Bitten" kicks in to stop the last 3 body cold, bouncing off the bones perhaps. The hit has done a total of 7 body damage. Stun is 72 points minus all the defenses because all of the "Heroic Toughness" applies (it stopped it's maximum potential body) so 28 points are stopped, with 44 being inflicted. Ok, so that was perhaps academic.

 

Now, I want to resolve the exact same combat, except switch the order of resolution, where "Hard-Bitten" is resolved before "Heroic Toughness".

 

The troll does 16 body worth of damage. 8 points are removed by the plate, leaving 8 more to resolve. Next up is the "Hard-Bitten" which lets 1 body through and then stops 6 points, leaving only a single point to be resolved. The "Heroic Toughness" stops half the body, rounding in favor of the character and so stops the last point. The character takes all of 1 body of damage. The stun doing 48 points, regular PD (of 8), Armor and "Hard-Bitten" all apply their defense against the stun, so remove 22 points from the stun damage, leaving 26. The "Heroic Toughness" only removes as much stun as it stopped body, in this case 1, so a total of 25 stun is inflicted on the character. Note this is 3 points more stun inflicted than the previous time.

 

The character is again stunned. The troll takes the second swing and does 24 damage. 8 points are removed by the plate, leaving 16 more to resolve. Next up is the "Hard-Bitten" which lets one body through and then stops another 6, leaving 9 to resolve. Half of that, rounding in favor of the character; 5 body, is stopped by the "Heroic Toughness" so 4 body gets through, totaling 5 body inflicted. Stun of 72 points is removed by the full regular PD (of 8), Armor and "Hard-Bitten" for a total of 22, leaving 50. "Heroic Toughness" only removes as much stun as it stopped body, in this case 5 leaving 45 stun to be inflicted.

 

So in the first examples where "Hard-Bitten" was resolved last, we had armor stopping damage, then a significant amount of damage being inflicted with the last bits bouncing off of 'something'. Conceptually I find this unsatisfying. Moreover the attacks did more body and less stun. Rather the opposite of what I would prefer. I want my players to go down easier but die harder.

 

In the second example where "Heroic Toughness" was resolved last, we had the character having damage being stopped by armor cold, then a small amount of damage being inflicted (1 point squeaking past "Hard-Bitten" any time the armor was penetrated) before another large chunk of damage was stopped, till finally it reached the squishy center where it did whatever damage it could with what was left. Conceptually this is more satisfying to me than armored bones. It also had the effect of doing less body damage and more stun damage, exactly what I want in my game. I want for my characters to go down more easily but be more survivable, as long as it doesn't turn into a total party kill.

 

All this long winded diatribe is to illustrate Killer Shrike, that despite the awe in which I hold your mastery of the game, I believe yours is the wrong call in the order of resolution. I believe the "Hard-Bitten" should be resolved before the "Heroic Toughness".

 

And clearly, I need to get a life.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Natural Toughness ability, how to balance...

 

Well, ok then, Hard Bitten before Heroic Toughness.

 

I guess that'll teach me to respond without doing due diligence...

 

[BubbaDave]

Re: Natural Toughness ability, how to balance...

 

Two characters side by side' date=' one spent 16 character points to have some defenses that sorta stop killing damage. So that arrow instead of doing 8 damage, now does 4. The other character spent 2 points on armor familiarity and another 4 on two Defensive Penalty Skill Levels, 6 character points, not 16, and he gets a full 8Pd/8Ed resistant. That arrow bounces of the character with the 6 character points spent, and does significant damage to the other who spent 16. I would say that if it does NOT stack with worn armor, that would count for FAR more than a -1/4 limitation. It would have to be such a limitation as to make it cheaper than the 6 points spent by the character who simply wears plate armor.[/quote']

 

Push 'em both into the moat and see who feels more limited? Have 'em both sneak down the castle corridor? Put them both in the path of a rolling stone ball, with their only hope of escape being a running leap across that spiked pit? Awaken them both with an orc ambush in their wilderness campsite? Have evil ninja pandas ambush them during a ballroom dance? There are plenty of times when "I can take a lot more HKA without 40 pounds of ironmongery strapped to my torso" is worth serious character points, IMO. (And again: part of my job as a GM is to ensure that limitations are actually limiting-- and Real Armor is a limitation, after all.)

[Panpiper]

Re: Natural Toughness ability, how to balance...

 

There are plenty of times when "I can take a lot more HKA without 40 pounds of ironmongery strapped to my torso" is worth serious character points' date=' IMO.[/quote']

I agree, absolutely. I would not argue that. My only contention was that 'Does not stack with armor' is worth at least a bit more than -1/4.