Ranged attacks while engaged in melee

[SteveZilla]

Re: Ranged attacks while engaged in melee

 

The Attack of Opportunity was introduced in 3rd Ed' date=' so it did not predate WoTC.[/quote']

 

It wasn't clearly codified like in 3rd Ed, but the preccedent is there. From the AD&D DMG (pub. 1979), p 70:

Breaking Off From Melee:

 

At such time as any creature decides, it can break off the engagement and flee the melee. To do so, however allows the opponent a free attack or attack routine.

 

Emphasis mine. I no longer own a PHB, so I can't check for further rules on what would "allow the opponent a free attack". But if that is not an "Attack of Opportunity", then what is?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Ranged attacks while engaged in melee

 

While the AD&D PHB and DMG at some points suggested a free attack against an opponent in certain circumstances, the "attack of opportunity" as we know it was actually introduced in so-called "D&D 2.5" in the "Combat and Tactics" book. Utter crap, along with just about everything else in that series of publications. That's when min-maxing REALLY began, and it became impossible to play a normal character without dying two rounds into a combat.

 

While Legolas in the LoTR movies may have used his bow anywhere and everywhere, Legolas in the actual books pulled out a long knife when the combat got close, as in the battle at Helm's Deep.

 

My solution pre-6E was to allow full Blocks and Disarms and such against ranged weapons as if they were HTH weapons when used in HTH range. In 6E, where you can now block ranged attacks anyway given adequate common/dramatic-sense circumstances, it's a no-brainer. But 6E also fleshes out some optional rules for combat penalties based on weapon size, and I think I may adapt those to using ranged weapons in close combat (based on the distance to your opponent instead of or in addition to how cramped the environment is), at least if there isn't time to ready the weapon ahead of time (the big issue with a bow is having to fit the arrow and draw; once that's done it often isn't a big deal to adjust your aim a bit and release).

[Drohem]

Re: Ranged attacks while engaged in melee

 

In this thread here I talk about finding the Concentration notes for bows on the weapons table. As I understand it, the bowman is at half DCV while loading and firing the bow. People have mentioned in this thread but no one seems to refer to it as part of the RAW (rules as written). I found this in the 5e HERO, Revised book on page 483.

 

I don't understand why it's not accepted as part of the rules, as it is clearly stated on page 483. Am I missing something about this whole thing?

 

Personally, I am fine with the bowman being at half DCV while firing and loading the bow as this does make doing this while engaged in melee a dangerous prospect. Yes, you can fire on your opponent even though engaged in melee range, but it's going to cost your defense dearly.

 

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On an unrelated note, when or how do I get privileges to edit my options and add an avatar? I currently get the message that I don't have permission to do anything with my profile on this forum.

[Panpiper]

Re: Ranged attacks while engaged in melee

 

I don't know if most people posting were aware of that, certainly some were. I was myself. The contention was that half DCV for an archer actively engaged in melee, is being extremely generous to the archer, that realistically the archer should be more like zero DCV and half OCV 'if engaged in melee with a bow'. It was however correctly pointed out to me that Hero is not trying to emulate reality but to emulate the movies, novels, comic books and whathaveyou. And it is quite correct that in that context, half DCV might well alone, be appropriate.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ranged attacks while engaged in melee

 

In this thread here I talk about finding the Concentration notes for bows on the weapons table. As I understand it, the bowman is at half DCV while loading and firing the bow. People have mentioned in this thread but no one seems to refer to it as part of the RAW (rules as written). I found this in the 5e HERO, Revised book on page 483.

 

I don't understand why it's not accepted as part of the rules, as it is clearly stated on page 483. Am I missing something about this whole thing?

 

Personally, I am fine with the bowman being at half DCV while firing and loading the bow as this does make doing this while engaged in melee a dangerous prospect. Yes, you can fire on your opponent even though engaged in melee range, but it's going to cost your defense dearly.

 

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On an unrelated note, when or how do I get privileges to edit my options and add an avatar? I currently get the message that I don't have permission to do anything with my profile on this forum.

 

Second point first - no idea - I just click 'Settings' top right and then select an option from the list on the left.

 

As to the main point - I think the thing is this: even with concentration and requiring a half phase to draw an arrow and a half phase to attack, a bowman can still use his weapon in melee. he might well suffer next phase - or he might not. Example:

 

Swordsman and Bowman. Swordsman higher DEX, but both same SPD.

 

PHASE 3

 

Swordsman attacks - does not kill bowman.

 

Bowman draws an arrow (half phase or maybe zero phase with Quick Draw) and shoots the arrow at the Swordsman (half phase). He is now 1/2 DCV.

 

PHASE 6

 

Swordsman attacks, Bowman aborts to dodge, thus removing his previous penalty and increasing his DCV substantially.

 

Repeat as needed.

 

Sure the Bowman is at a disadvantage - but then he is slower than the swordsman so you'd expect that - the point is many feel he should not be able to do that at all. The rules allow it though. You'd need another limitation on Longbow, something like 'minimum Range: 2m'. That way he could not shoot at someone standing next to him - although TECHNICALLY even that would not prevent him using his bow - it would just mean that he could not hit the guy in front of him with the sword - but could target another fighter further away.

 

Hero does not prevent that sort of nonsense, presumably assuming the GM will just say no.

 

Perhaps ANOTHER limitation should be placed on Longbow: Requires a Roll (EGO and/or DEX roll to use bow in melee range of hostile opponent). It wouldn't STOP a bowman trying to use his weapon in melee, but would make it much more difficult to do so successfully.

 

Then you could also have 'Extra segment to draw arrow and shoot' because Hero allows you to half phase draw arrow and half phase shoot - all as part of a single action, without interruption.

 

Longbows are going to be amazingly cheap

[Drohem]

Re: Ranged attacks while engaged in melee

 

As to the main point - I think the thing is this: even with concentration and requiring a half phase to draw an arrow and a half phase to attack, a bowman can still use his weapon in melee. he might well suffer next phase - or he might not. Example:

 

Swordsman and Bowman. Swordsman higher DEX, but both same SPD.

 

PHASE 3

 

Swordsman attacks - does not kill bowman.

 

Bowman draws an arrow (half phase or maybe zero phase with Quick Draw) and shoots the arrow at the Swordsman (half phase). He is now 1/2 DCV.

 

PHASE 6

 

Swordsman attacks, Bowman aborts to dodge, thus removing his previous penalty and increasing his DCV substantially.

 

Repeat as needed.

 

Sure the Bowman is at a disadvantage - but then he is slower than the swordsman so you'd expect that - the point is many feel he should not be able to do that at all. The rules allow it though. You'd need another limitation on Longbow, something like 'minimum Range: 2m'. That way he could not shoot at someone standing next to him - although TECHNICALLY even that would not prevent him using his bow - it would just mean that he could not hit the guy in front of him with the sword - but could target another fighter further away.

 

Hero does not prevent that sort of nonsense, presumably assuming the GM will just say no.

 

Perhaps ANOTHER limitation should be placed on Longbow: Requires a Roll (EGO and/or DEX roll to use bow in melee range of hostile opponent). It wouldn't STOP a bowman trying to use his weapon in melee, but would make it much more difficult to do so successfully.

 

Then you could also have 'Extra segment to draw arrow and shoot' because Hero allows you to half phase draw arrow and half phase shoot - all as part of a single action, without interruption.

 

Longbows are going to be amazingly cheap

 

Thanks for the example. I'm fairly new to HERO so it helped. Still, that is pretty good for me, as the swordsman and bowman start to dance if the bowman starts taking Dodge actions to avoid being hit by the swordsman. In this way, the bowman is giving up an attack to get a +3 DCV bonus , yet, at the same time, he is giving the swordsman more opportunities to hit him, albeit with more difficulty. Personally, if I was running a game, I would probably institute some like you suggested where firing and loading when adjacent to a melee combatant would be more difficult. Although, as always, if a character really, really wanted to devote a truck load of points into bow powers, skill, talents, etc., to be like Legalos, then he can do- but, he may suffer in other areas for making that choice.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ranged attacks while engaged in melee

 

Absolutely - you should be able to attempt pretty much anything if you've spent enough points on it - or are willing to have very little chance of success

[dmjalund]

Re: Ranged attacks while engaged in melee

 

I think actions that have the Concentration limitation should be easily foiled by an adjacent HTH combatant - maybe requiring an EGO roll to avoid flinching or otherwise losing the action (being kind - if the archer loses the action allow him to regain his normal DCV)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ranged attacks while engaged in melee

 

I think actions that have the Concentration limitation should be easily foiled by an adjacent HTH combatant - maybe requiring an EGO roll to avoid flinching or otherwise losing the action (being kind - if the archer loses the action allow him to regain his normal DCV)

 

If someone who is concentrating takes STUN or BODY their concentration is broken, and the attack would fail (The GM may allow an EGO roll), but given that getting an arrow out and shooting it only takes a full phase, unless someone has a held action they are not going to be able to effectively disrupt the attack - which is why additional limitations may be required.