Racial STR and Normal Character Maxima

[Herolover]

Okay. I have discovered a questiona and am wondering how other gamemaster's are playing it.

 

In my Fantasy Hero campaign I have a player wanting to play a "Sprite" type character. So, I made him a packasge deal where the racial package deal is 1/4 the size of humans with a -10 STR.

 

Now, this is a heroic level campaign so looking at the "Sprite" equipment I ruled that "Sprite" equipment weighs 1/4 the normal equipment.

 

The question, and problem, I have is the fact that there is no reason, beyond a roleplay reason, tht the player could not buy his STR up to the normal 20. These means the "Sprite" could be walking around with a massive STR (at least for a Sprite).

 

What do you think about this? I could see this being VERY abusive. What would you do to stop it?

[Hugh Neilson]

An old AC article suggested that racial penalties and bonuses not only change the stat, but also change the max. By this logic, the max STR for a Sprite would be 10 - any more, and you pay double.

 

I'm surprised FH doesn't have this, at least as an option. It provides a bit more racial differentiation, and also spreads stats out in a group of different races.

[Blue Jogger]

I think the problem is it is easy to munchkinize the races, if one is not careful. If you have orcs or orges or half-giants that have, say a 15 STR and then have doubling at 25 STR, then anyone who wants a high STR will want to be that race. High INT characters will naturally want to be mages (the "real" reason why powerful mages are so old).

[bjbrown]

Roleplaying reasons should be good enough.

Adjusted characteristic maxima for each race comes with its own set of potential abuses. If a player wants a combat machine and get a point-break making that combat machine, he just chooses the race that gives the most point savings for high stats.

Without adjusted characteristic maxima for different races, at least everyone pays the same character points for their stats.

[Talon]

I don't alter the costs any, just the level at which GM permission is required. For a human, any STR over 20 requires my permission; for a sprite, any STR over 10 would have the same requirement. Since 10 STR is pretty monstrous for a sprite, it would take quite a good reason to convince me to allow a higher value.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by bjbrown

Roleplaying reasons should be good enough.

Adjusted characteristic maxima for each race comes with its own set of potential abuses. If a player wants a combat machine and get a point-break making that combat machine, he just chooses the race that gives the most point savings for high stats.

Without adjusted characteristic maxima for different races, at least everyone pays the same character points for their stats.

This is a tradeoff, however. Let's say I I think a creature (let's say Orcs) are generally strong (+3 STR, +2 CON) and stupid (-3 INT, -2 EGO), so those are part of the package. But Tony wants to play an Orc wizard, so he takes the Orc package, sells back the extra STR and buys INT and EGO up to 20. No extra cost for elimination of the orc's inherent disadvantages (and no extra savings for selling back its inherent advantages).If the objective is to promote some diversity between the races, applying variable "Normal Characteristics" assists in this goal.Now, Orcs will clearly tend to warrior, not wizard, roles under this model. But that's what orcs do best (at least as I've defined them), so doesn't that make sense?This means watching for exotic races pretty carefully. My example above already gives the Orc a 23 STR max, high but not the end of the world. If you give Trolls a +25 STR, that's going to be a bigger issue. To balance it out, the Troll should lose 25 points in other stats. or we just say "trolls are not a standard racial type so if you want one, you pay the doubled CHAR costs to get there". But at least I don't end up with an unbelievably scrawny and studious Troll as an excuse to have a wizard that regenerates!

[keithcurtis]

I generally dislike altered characteristic maxima. Apply common sense rulings. The Sprite could no more buy a 20 STR than your human fighter could buy desolidification.

Just because you have the points doesn't mean you can buy it. The rules are there to help you model a concept. The modeled concept does not come rom the rules; it comes from the mind.

 

Keith "Just say no" Curtis

[Blue Jogger]

Originally posted by bjbrown

Roleplaying reasons should be good enough.

 

Hmm. (scratches head) Does this mean if I have a roleplaying reason why my human character should have a 25 STR, that I don't have to pay double?

 

Actually, that might explain the maxima rule. If I have the Belt of Lifting and Carrying Heavy Stuff and it magically gives me +10 STR, I didn't have to pay double for the amount that goes over 20 (or have the Strength added over 20 to go by half). Same goes if I have a spell that boosts my Strength temporarily.

 

Of course, if my reason for having a 25 STR is "I'm Conan" then I'm going to have to pay double, because that's not a good enough roleplaying reason to be preternatually strong.

[Talon]

Originally posted by Blue Jogger

Hmm. (scratches head) Does this mean if I have a roleplaying reason why my human character should have a 25 STR, that I don't have to pay double?

 

It means that you are granted the privilege of paying double. Without a roleplaying reason, you're not allowed to have a STR 25, period.

 

Playing an ogre would be an automatic reason, so any ogre PC could have 25 STR without having to petition to GM -- but would still pay double for it. On the other hand, any sprite character would need permission to go past 10.

[prestidigitator]

Are these heroic characters we are talking about, or normals? Let them buy over their maxima. It's double cost. That's harsh enough. I'd certianly rather have an Overall Skill Level for the points it would cost me to buy +5 Str.

 

My small racial packages include Shrinking with appropriate modifiers, along with the corresponding Disadvantages and stat (including maxima) decreases. Your sprite, who has approximately 1/64th normal mass, would actually start at -20 Str, with a maximum of -10, in my book. Think your player will want to spend enough points to pick up a toothpick and do more than 1/2 DC of damage (at least 40 points)? I would say that's worth the Disadvantage points (I would probably make the -30 Str count toward the maximum points from Disadvantages).

 

By the way, let your players choose to play an ogre if they want a high Str. Just put in appropriate Disadvantages which they have to take. Let's see that ogre with an extreme Distinctive Features and some Social and Physical Limitiations to boot walk into a bar and crush a bar stool. How do you think the town's inhabitants will react? If he gets mad and jams the bartender's head through the wall, let's see the PC deal with the torch-wielding mob that was about ready to form anyway....

[Killer Shrike]

Extended notes on how I handle Race Packages and NCM is listed here (scroll down a bit): http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/guidelines.htm

 

but the short short version is:

 

1) Race Packages are wholly under the control of the GM -- players can not alter them without permission either at character creation or otherwise. There are Options to extend a Race Package for some Races which are considered to be "preapproved" in my paradigm (other GMs may have their own Options list or none at all) -- items from this list may only be purchased once as part of a Race Package unless specifically flagged as being purchasable multiple times.

 

2) Race Package Disadvantages do not count against a character's Disadvantage total or limit -- effectively making Race Packages self contained. Each Race Package includes NCM as part of its Disadvantage total.

 

3) Characteristic Modifiers in Race Packages (and only Race Packages) are applied last to a character after NCM is determined. These modifiers may not be altered by the player.

 

EXAMPLE: Hairfoot Halflings have a +1 Speed, +2 DEX, -5 STR, -2 BODY, -2 INT, -5 PRE as part of their Race Package Deal. If a Hairfoot Halfing character purchases +10 DEX and +10 STR outside of their Package they do not encounter Characteristic Maxima having neither DEX or STR above 20. Then the Race Characteristic modifiers are applied, resulting in an adjusted DEX of 22 and an adjusted STR of 15. If the Halfling wanted a final adjusted STR of 20 after the Race Penalty is applied, the Halfling must buy his base STR up to 25 paying the doubling penalty for 21 to 25 strength; after the -5 STR adjustment from the Hairfoot Halfling Race Package Deal is applied the Halfling has an adjusted STR of 20.

 

4) When listing a Race Package Deal on a character sheet, it is sufficient to just apply Characteristic modifiers as appropriate, and annotate the Package with a single line entry plus any additional Options taken with a summed total cost (minus Disadvantages), such as "15.....Wood Elf Package Deal"

 

 

Here are some sample starting templates: Starting Templates

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

3) Characteristic Modifiers in Race Packages (and only Race Packages) are applied last to a character after NCM is determined. These modifiers may not be altered by the player.

This essentially means you change the Characteristic Maxima by exactly the same amounts as the starting Characteristic values--without giving any Disadvantage points for the former. That is reasonable. I tend to give the points, myself. I, too, am pretty stringent about new racial packages, however. I let players come up with new racial packages (usually for races that so far have been NPC, but sometimes new ones altogether), but I definitely comb through them and approve, turn down, or impose constraints.