Martial Arts and Weapons

[bryanb]

Hello Everyone,

 

I may have misinterpreted the rules but with MA and weapons the damage of the weapon can never exceed 2x the weapons base damage...

 

Isn't this rather limiting (especially for Champions campaigns)?

 

Please let me know if I have the wrong end of the stick so to speak...

 

Thanks

 

Daz

[Fur Face]

Hey Daz,

 

If you were playing in a heroic level game, that would be correct. In a superheroic level game it runs like this:

 

Killing Attacks: Cannot exceed base damage by 2X

 

Normal Damage: Weapon adds to STR. If you have a 50 STR brick (10 Damage Classes or DC) and he picks up a baseball bat (which I'll call 4 DC's), then if he hits it does a total of 14 DCs.

 

The only way to get around the 2X for Killing Attacks is with martial arts, becasue martial arts adds to normal and killing damage. So, in referring to the example above:

 

Using a martial strike (+2 DC), plus STR, plus a baseball bat, equals 16 DC's.

 

Using a killing attack (+1/2HKA), the max damage would be 2X plus 1/2.

 

If they character has bought extra DC's to go with the martial arts, then you can add those in to. Then it can get nasty. Of course, the character also has to take the modifiers for the maneuver, which for an Killing Strike is -2 OCV, but if you hit - BIFF!

 

Hope this helps!

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Fur Face

If they character has bought extra DC's to go with the martial arts, then you can add those in to. Then it can get nasty. Of course, the character also has to take the modifiers for the maneuver, which for an Killing Strike is -2 OCV, but if you hit - BIFF!

 

Well, yes, but he could have bought a bigger HKA to BIFF as well. Since he has to pay points for the attack in any case, he should get some results for it.

 

If he can have a baseball bat for free (points wise), capping the damage doesn't seem unreasonable. As well, in a heroic campaign,. adding 4d6 from STR is pretty good anyway, especially after the STR min. Adding another 7 DC to a 2d6+ 1 "honkin big weapon" means having 35 STR, plus the STR min, which would be very expensive, so extra STR seldon goes to waste.

 

The better question may be how long can that "no points" baseball bat used as a weapon of opportunity can stand up to connecting with solid objects at 50 STR of power.

[prestidigitator]

Actually, the doubling rule works for superheroic campaigns as well (unless, of course, you are using different House Rules). It is as follows:

• Str: When you make an attack with your straight Str, it is the base attack. Skill Levels and Martial Arts cannot more than double your base Str DCs.
• HA: Is really just Str, with a limitation that it is only to do damage. Any attack made with an HA is really just an attack using your Str+HA. Skill Levels and Martial Arts cannot more than double this.
• HKA: The HKA is the base attack. Str, Skill Levels, and Martial Arts cannot more than double the base DCs from the HKA.
• Other Powers (EB, RKA, etc.): Str does not normally add to these attacks. Skill Levels can, and it is at least conceivable IMHO that Martial Arts could. In any case, Str, Skill Levels, and Martial Arts cannot more than double the base DCs from the Power.

Also, for powers with Advantages, Str merely increases the Active Points of the attack, so if the power has Advantages equalling +1/2, it takes 7.5 points of Str to add a full DC of damage.

 

These rules can be found in various sections of the rulebook, including those on Str, Combat Skill Levels, Attack Powers, the specific Powers, and the sections about combat and damage. They are also clarified by various entries in the Rules FAQs and the Rules Questions discussion board.

[Pattern Ghost]

Str: When you make an attack with your straight Str, it is the base attack. Skill Levels and Martial Arts cannot more than double your base Str DCs.

 

I think you made a type-o here. You can certainly more than double your base STR with MA. 10 STR character using Offensive Strike = 6d6 damage, not 4d6.

[Farkling]

Hey Hugh...you mean you don't apply the BODY damage to the bat? Real world objects always take damage from being used to beat on things in my campaign.

 

Said baseball bat would be good for one hit...the BODY damage from the force of the blow would turn it into splinters. (or shards if it was a metal bat)

[SleepyDrug]

New spin....how would you arrange a comprimise between the two options. Able to exceed the normal cap but not the unlimited way the superheroic setting does.

 

What about a limited ability to exceed on killing?

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

Hey Hugh...you mean you don't apply the BODY damage to the bat? Real world objects always take damage from being used to beat on things in my campaign.

 

Said baseball bat would be good for one hit...the BODY damage from the force of the blow would turn it into splinters. (or shards if it was a metal bat)

 

Whether it should be the Bod from the attack is debateable, I can't see a baseball bat standing up to a 50 STR swing for very long - even if we assume the best ball player can reach a 30 STR equivalent through skill and pushing, it's still 16x the force the bat was designed for (and it was designed to hit a fairly light object).

 

But if I apply BOD damage from attacks to normal weapons, a sword won't last too long (4 DEF, 4-6 BOD; FREd p 303); even if you assume normal damage from the STR add only, a 20 STR swordsman will get a BOD through on a fairly regular basis. And forget pushing! How often did Conan's sword break?

 

Improvised weapons, of course, aren't desognmed for that use so it's fair to just give them their normal DEF and watch them splinter, but something designed to be used as a weapon (or for a similar purpose - baseball bat/club) should be a little sturdier when put to its intended use.

 

[Regardless, that bat's not gonna be good for a lot of 50 STR hits whatever system you use, and I'd rather just let dramatic sense take over and say it broke than spend time rolling damage against a bat).

[bryanb]

Originally posted by Fur Face

Hey Daz,

 

If you were playing in a heroic level game, that would be correct. In a superheroic level game it runs like this:

 

Killing Attacks: Cannot exceed base damage by 2X

 

Normal Damage: Weapon adds to STR. If you have a 50 STR brick (10 Damage Classes or DC) and he picks up a baseball bat (which I'll call 4 DC's), then if he hits it does a total of 14 DCs.

 

The only way to get around the 2X for Killing Attacks is with martial arts, becasue martial arts adds to normal and killing damage. So, in referring to the example above:

 

Using a martial strike (+2 DC), plus STR, plus a baseball bat, equals 16 DC's.

 

Using a killing attack (+1/2HKA), the max damage would be 2X plus 1/2.

 

Do you know where these rules are located in the book (H5 or UMA)?

 

I thought that a person without MA using a weapon just did as many dice as the weapon has DEF and Body? (Do you know where this is mentioned in the book as well?)

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Daz

[Fur Face]

Hey Daz,

 

H5, Page 270-271 is the basis for all of this. UMA tends to no repeat H5, and merely quotes it.

 

Hope this helps!

[Farkling]

Um, Hugh?

 

"[Regardless, that bat's not gonna be good for a lot of 50 STR hits whatever system you use, and I'd rather just let dramatic sense take over and say it broke than spend time rolling damage against a bat)."

 

You don't need to roll anything....you have the BODY total from the attack they just did....

 

And for weapons....hmmm....maybe half damage would be more appropriate. I run Supers games, and rarely have weapons in use by players that they did not buy with their own points. Weapons of circumstance are "real objects" in my world.

 

I don't apply the rule to Foci the character is using, unless someone is actively TRYING to break it. If they paid points it can do whatever it is designed to do. It gets the -0 "comic book physics apply" limitation.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

I think you made a type-o here. You can certainly more than double your base STR with MA. 10 STR character using Offensive Strike = 6d6 damage, not 4d6.

I meant what I said. The following quote is (part of) a Q&A on the Rules Questions board:

 

Originally posted by Silbeg

See the following example:

 

Reptile has 20 STR, and 4D6 HAs w/ Armor Piercing advantage (claws). He also has Thai Kickboxing, which includes the Fast Strike manuever (+2 OCV, +0 DCV, STR+2d6).

 

Does he get:

1) 10d6 AP (8d6 w/ STR, plus 2d6 from the manuever)

or

2) 8d6 AP (8d6 w/ STR, the additional +2d6 is lost as this more than doubles the base attack).

Originally posted by Steve Long

I think a lot of the confusion here results from a fundamental issue: does the HA add to the character’s STR, or does the character’s STR add to the HA? The text on 5E 119 clearly states the HA adds to STR. The text on 5E 272 phrases things as if the STR adds to the HA to make the rule clear, but the truth is the HA adds to STR, not the other way around.

 

In this case, both the HA dice and the Martial Maneuver dice are adding to the character’s STR. Technically this limits the character to 8d6 AP damage, but as discussed in the Rules FAQ and elsewhere, many GMs waive the “doubling†rule when applying Martial Maneuvers and just let them add straight up. In that case the character does 10d6 AP.

So actually I did make a mistake, but not where you thought I did. My mistake was in talking about HA. It is not considered part of the base attack, so it, Skill Levels, and Martial Arts together cannot more than double the base DCs of your Str. Steve makes the normal rules pretty clear, although, like always, you are free to ignore them.

 

As a side note, I wonder at the Armor Piercing Advantage, if the Str is the base attack. For powers where Str normally adds to the base attack, Advantages are supposed to increase the amount of Str needed to add a DC (+1/4 means 6 Str would be needed to add a DC). I guess I would still do things this way, even if Str is the base attack.