Shadow Duplication

[Kdansky]

Frankly, I watched Naruto lately and got really excited about it, it's a great anime, one of the best releases in the last 6 months or so.

 

To make a long story short: The main Character has got a "Shadow Replication" Technique (Kage Bunshin no Jutsu for those who speak japanese) which creates clones of himself out of thin air. If they get hit once, they just dissappear in a puff of smoke, else they can fight with a bit lower power than himself, think independant and have got a good team work (about the level a group of players have with the notorious "PC-Mindlink" called "players discussing the fight while eating cookies").

 

Things I know how to do: Duplication, Gestures, Incantation, Concentration, Extra Time. Perhaps add a Mindlink and a small psychological Limitation "Sometimes start to argue between themselves".

 

Things I have no Idea how to do: How do I make them "die" at the first damaging hit (let's say: the first hit doing body) and how do I overcome the duplication's Limit that dead copies are dead forever? The character can just re-cast his spell and the shadowclones reappear. Or would you rather go with Images?

[Tom McCarthy]

He could summon slavishly loyal shadows who are exactly like him but only have 1 STUN (and maybe low defences) and take a 30 point physical limitation that they disappear when hit.

 

Just one way to skin a cat; others exist.

 

Another might be Duplicates with an Accidental Recombine at Range result; when hit they automatically recombine at range as a 0 phase action.

[Jeff]

I'd second the Summoning route. They may not need to be quite slavishly loyal if arguing or going their own way is possible. Images won't do if they actually do anything but get seen and heard; you'd need to link it to attacks for them with a physical manifestation limitation - at which point you're essentially recreating Summoning the hard way. One-hit/one-kill is just a matter of BODY 1, STUN 1, and a physical limitation that it can't survive being Stunned or Knocked Out. (Probably a small one given a small BODY value.)

[Zed-F]

I also vote Summon. Probably put them at at least loyal (+1/2).

[Hugh Neilson]

I'd also go summoning.

 

Begs the question why we have duplication, really. It's just a variant if summoning anyway.

[austenandrews]

Duplication, no question. At a first pass I'd say the vanishing thing might qualify as a Disadvantage, though a Limitation on Duplication (or STUN - triggers Recombine when lost ) might be better. I'd have to read through Duplication to work out the details.

 

For the limitless shadows thing, you only need to worry about how many he conjures simultaneously. The duplicates aren't "dying," just getting "dispelled" by a hit. Of course if a duplicate really does get killed in one shot, you're out of luck; spend some XPs to get your total back up. If there's a danger this might happen frequently, maybe you can buy some extra BODY "only to keep from dying" (I'm sure the value of that Limitation has been calculated somewhere).

 

(As an aside, I've never liked the generic solution of "invent something out of thin air and Summon it." It seems very contrived to me. I interpret Summon as applying to things that already exist in the world, not things that are custom-made specifically for this instance of Summon.)

 

-AA

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by austenandrews

(As an aside, I've never liked the generic solution of "invent something out of thin air and Summon it." It seems very contrived to me. I interpret Summon as applying to things that already exist in the world, not things that are custom-made specifically for this instance of Summon.)

You are confusing Special Effect with mechanics. Mechanically, the desired effect is that of Summon. It doesn't matter if the shadow is, "summoned out of thin air," or if it is, "a small bit of his essence menifested in solid form," or, "gating in a shadow simulcrum from the Demi-Plane of Shadow." The crux of the matter is that you should not use Duplication with a whole slew of Advantages and Limitations just to do what Summon is meant for.

[austenandrews]

And I would argue the opposite - if you're conjuring a bunch of "clones of yourself" you shouldn't make it with Summoning, because there's already a power called Duplication. Not that you -can't- make it with Summon, but to me Duplication is clearly the more appropriate path. It actually -creates- the clones, as desired. It requires a simple tweak to have the desired operational characteristics. With Summon you have to -invent the existence of the clones- whole cloth, a GM-permission business at best.

 

Of course you can use Summon or Transform to simulate nearly any special effect you can think of, but I don't care for that approach. I mean, there are people who genuinely think a missile should be built with Summon instead of RKA. I've even seen "resurrect self" built as a Summon. Such constructs are not against the letter of the rules, but I don't like them because I think they violate the spirit of the rules.

 

More on topic, it occurs to me that if "dispelling" a Duplicate is a special effect of forced recombination, the primary character is going to suffer the effects of recombining. Again I don't have my rules in front of me, but Kdansky, you'll want to account for that fact in your design.

 

-AA

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by austenandrews

I've even seen "resurrect self" built as a Summon. Such constructs are not against the letter of the rules, but I don't like them because I think they violate the spirit of the rules.

 

That construct was, I believe, in a prior Fantasy Hero edition or supplement, before we had rules for Regeneration beyond death.

 

I think the problem with Duplication and Summon is that they are facets of the same power. Duplication started in Champions III (as opposed to 3e) because "Hey, here's a comic book power the system can't do". Meanwhile, Summon showed up in Fantasy Hero because "Hey, here's a common spell effect the system has no rules for". They've been brought closaer and closer to the same rules set (eg. Points/5), and there's really no need for Duplication as a separate power, as opposed to a variant of Summon.

 

"I Summon an alternate version of me from a parallel universe" is a lot less of a stretch than "I Summon an elemental that surrounds me and adds 10 rPD and 10 rED" instead of buying a force field.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by austenandrews

And I would argue the opposite - if you're conjuring a bunch of "clones of yourself" you shouldn't make it with Summoning, because there's already a power called Duplication. Not that you -can't- make it with Summon, but to me Duplication is clearly the more appropriate path.

I agree completely. But, from the description the character is not creating "clones of himself." The description, "If they get hit once, they just dissappear in a puff of smoke, else they can fight with a bit lower power than himself, think independant and have got a good team work," doesn't sound like a clone to me. The "duplicate of self" just sounds like a Special Effect (the shadows look like the character). What is actually created sounds like something with virtually no defenses, less powerful attacks (if they are even the same), probably no skills (except the additional Teamwork, which the original character may not even have), likely limited Characteristics, etc. That sounds so far from a "duplicate" that I would have no problem making it a Summon (especially because destroying one has no impact on the power--it can just be "summoned" again).

 

Heck! A character could have an Continuous, Autofire Energy Blast which has the Special Effects of, "Duplicates of myself jump out and attack an opponent or opponents," without the character needing to buy it as a Duplication. That may even be a valid choice for this power, with the condition that turns off the Cotinuous power being, "The shadow of me is hit by an attack." It depends on what these shadows can actually be used for, etc.

 

Of course you can use Summon or Transform to simulate nearly any special effect you can think of, but I don't care for that approach. I mean, there are people who genuinely think a missile should be built with Summon instead of RKA.

Any Special Effect, but not any mechanics. Transform and Summon have their own built-in rules, and behave quite differently from other Powers in some respects. Not to mention that if you really build it as a Summon (for example), then it is affected by things that affect Summon, not some other power (Dispel maybe--although I'm sure we could argue all day about whether the effects of Summon can be Dispelled--I would say it depends on the Special Effects).

 

By the way, I agree with you about missiles. I am particularly uneasy about Star Hero's choice to make missiles separate Vehicles. I have to think about that one.

[austenandrews]

Originally posted by prestidigitator

Heck! A character could have an Continuous, Autofire Energy Blast which has the Special Effects of, "Duplicates of myself jump out and attack an opponent or opponents," without the character needing to buy it as a Duplication. That may even be a valid choice for this power, with the condition that turns off the Cotinuous power being, "The shadow of me is hit by an attack." It depends on what these shadows can actually be used for, etc.

 

True, it does depend on what the actual effect is. When he said "clones" I made the assumption that the shadows could do everything that the original character can do, including powers and skills. If all they're doing are basic punches/grabs/what-have-you, a large AE TK would do it. Slap on a Limitation that "destroying a duplicate" grants the target a reprieve for that Phase. You'd have to figure out how to make them act independently of the character, probably add Uncontrolled, season to taste.

 

-AA