Gargoyle

[JmOz]

OK, this character is a redo on another I posted a couple months back, that game self destructed but the player is in this new one. So review away. This game is more powerful than the last and he shows it.

 

The cnaracter is a college student who has gotten bonded with a gargoyle (Creature from the netherworlds)

 

In Gargoyle form he is strong, tough, and can fly

 

Gargoyle

Andrew Rogers

 

VAL CHA Cost Roll Notes

15 STR 5 12- / 24- HTH Damage 3d6/15d6 END [1/4]

15 DEX 10 12-

15 CON 5 12- / 15-

9 INT -1 11- PER Roll 11-

13 EGO 3 12-

10 PRE 0 11- / 15- PRE Attack: 2d6 / 6d6

4 OCV 5

4 DCV 5

3 OMCV 0

4 DMCV 3

5 SPD 30 Phases: 3, 5, 8, 10, 12

5 PD 3 5/50 PD (0/20 rPD)

5 ED 3 5/50 ED (0/20 rED)

5 REC 1

25 END 1

12 BODY 2

20 STUN 0

 

Movement Cost Meters Notes

RUNNING 0 12m/24m END [1]

SWIMMING 0 4m/8m END [1]

LEAPING 0 4m 4m forward, 2m upward

FLIGHT 25m/50m

 

 

 

 

Characteristics Total: 75

 

Cost Powers

5 Nightvision - END=0

10 Soulvision: Detect A Class Of Things 11- (Sight Group), Discriminatory - END=0

Form of the Gargoyle, all slots Only In Alternate Identity (-1/4) - END=

60 1) +60 STR, Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (75 Active Points); Only In Alternate Identity (-1/4) - END=3

12 2) +15 CON (15 Active Points); Only In Alternate Identity (-1/4) - END=

11 3) +20 PRE (20 Active Points); Only for Fear Effects (-1/2), Only In Alternate Identity (-1/4) - END=

28 4) +7 OCV (35 Active Points); Only In Alternate Identity (-1/4) - END=

20 5) +25 PD (25 Active Points); Only In Alternate Identity (-1/4) - END=

20 6) +25 ED (25 Active Points); Only In Alternate Identity (-1/4) - END=

72 7) Resistant Protection (20 PD/20 ED), Hardened (+1/4), Impenetrable (+1/4) (90 Active Points); Only In Alternate Identity (-1/4) - END=0

12 8) +15 REC (15 Active Points); Only In Alternate Identity (-1/4) - END=

6 9) +35 END (7 Active Points); Only In Alternate Identity (-1/4) - END=

10 10) +13 BODY (13 Active Points); Only In Alternate Identity (-1/4) - END=

20 11) +50 STUN (25 Active Points); Only In Alternate Identity (-1/4) - END=

14 12) Winged Flight: Flight 25m (25 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Only In Alternate Identity (-1/4) - END=2

 

Powers Total: 300

 

 

Cost Skills

3 Acrobatics 12-

1 Acting 8-

3 Breakfall 12-

1 Bureaucratics 8-

1 CK: New City 8-

3 Climbing 12-

1 Combat Driving 8-

1 Concealment 8-

1 Conversation 8-

1 Deduction 8-

3 Gambling (Sports Betting, Poker) 11-

3 Interrogation 11- (15-)

3 KS: Common Knowledge 11-

2 KS: Sports 11-

2 KS: Video Games 11-

4 Language: English (idiomatic)

1 Language: Spanish (basic conversation)

3 Mechanics 11-

2 PS: Student 11-

1 Paramedics 8-

1 Persuasion 8-

1 Shadowing 8-

1 Stealth 8-

2 Streetwise 10-

1 Strength Tricks 8-

0 TF: Small Motorized Ground Vehicles

1 Tactics 8-

3 Teamwork 12-

 

Skills Total: 50

 

 

 

Value Complications

15 Social Complication: Secret ID Frequently, Major

15 Psychological Complication: Worried about Accidentaly Hurting Someone (Common; Strong)

20 Hunted: VIPER Infrequently (Mo Pow; NCI; Harshly Punish)

 

Complications Points: 50

 

Base Points: 425

Experience: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

Total Character Cost: 425

[Matt Holck]

Re: Gargoyle

 

why do you put the statts in too separate areas?

[JmOz]

Re: Gargoyle

 

It formated weird, just noticed. It should be 15/75 (To represent his non hero and hero form)

[Matt Holck]

Re: Gargoyle

 

I run into my own problems trying to do everything by hand

[Checkmate]

Re: Gargoyle

 

The build looks fine but on a personal note it seems more and more people make all their characters OIHID. It feels like they come up with concepts that take advantage of that. I think this is a huge problem because the limitation rarely lives up to the point savings. I mean it's a -1/4 limitation so it should only come up 1 in 4 sessions... Unless you make every power and characteristic that takes the limitation come up 1 in 4 sessions. I dunno it just seems unfair to the few people that don't use it.

[Escafarc]

Re: Gargoyle

 

The build looks fine but on a personal note it seems more and more people make all their characters OIHID. It feels like they come up with concepts that take advantage of that. I think this is a huge problem because the limitation rarely lives up to the point savings. I mean it's a -1/4 limitation so it should only come up 1 in 4 sessions... Unless you make every power and characteristic that takes the limitation come up 1 in 4 sessions. I dunno it just seems unfair to the few people that don't use it.

 

I rarely allow OIHID unless there is a way to easily prevent the "change" then I make them use Multiform or a Focus.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Gargoyle

 

The build looks fine but on a personal note it seems more and more people make all their characters OIHID. It feels like they come up with concepts that take advantage of that. I think this is a huge problem because the limitation rarely lives up to the point savings. I mean it's a -1/4 limitation so it should only come up 1 in 4 sessions... Unless you make every power and characteristic that takes the limitation come up 1 in 4 sessions. I dunno it just seems unfair to the few people that don't use it.

 

 

unless the GM wants to ambush the characters every four sessions

Note: ambushing is not always a fun game

[Chimera 12]

Re: Gargoyle

 

The build looks fine but on a personal note it seems more and more people make all their characters OIHID. It feels like they come up with concepts that take advantage of that. I think this is a huge problem because the limitation rarely lives up to the point savings. I mean it's a -1/4 limitation so it should only come up 1 in 4 sessions... Unless you make every power and characteristic that takes the limitation come up 1 in 4 sessions. I dunno it just seems unfair to the few people that don't use it.

 

Only In Alternate ID is a Limitation because you genuinely only have the powers taken with it while in said alternate ID. Powers without it stick around in any identity you might have -- you may not want to use them in an obvious way so as not to blow your cover, but that doesn't change the fact that if you changed your mind you could do so at any time.

 

So, our Gargoyle character here is limited because, anytime he's just being plain old Andy Rogers, he literally is just a normal person (though with unusually high SPD and a couple of extra senses). A couple of common muggers could be a genuine threat unless he risks his secret by 'monstering out'; that's not a problem that, say, Clark Kent has to worry about in quite the same way.

[Checkmate]

Re: Gargoyle

 

Only In Alternate ID is a Limitation because you genuinely only have the powers taken with it while in said alternate ID. Powers without it stick around in any identity you might have -- you may not want to use them in an obvious way so as not to blow your cover' date=' but that doesn't change the fact that if you changed your mind you [i']could[/i] do so at any time.

 

So, our Gargoyle character here is limited because, anytime he's just being plain old Andy Rogers, he literally is just a normal person (though with unusually high SPD and a couple of extra senses). A couple of common muggers could be a genuine threat unless he risks his secret by 'monstering out'; that's not a problem that, say, Clark Kent has to worry about in quite the same way.

I understand the limitation, I just don't believe the limitations are worth the price savings. How many often will the character be ambushed? if it's all the time, cool may be worth the saving, although you're probably going to have some annoyed players. I'm with Escafarc, unless it can be easily stopped or is difficult to change, it's not really a OIHID.[/url]

[JmOz]

Re: Gargoyle

 

I feel that some GM's get a bit worked up over a -1/4 lim. OIHID is at least as limiting in my game as Unified Power or a host of other -1/4 lims...

[Matt Holck]

Re: Gargoyle

 

some GM get worked up over overall limited characters

it's true

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Gargoyle

 

I understand the limitation' date=' I just don't believe the limitations are worth the price savings. How many often will the character be ambushed? if it's all the time, cool may be worth the saving, although you're probably going to have some annoyed players. I'm with Escafarc, unless it can be easily stopped or is difficult to change, it's not really a OIHID.[/quote']

It's not so much about "ambushing the players". If, in your games, the players go out and interact in the regular world out of costume fairly regularly, it will come up. Iron guy doesn't have to be at the scene of the crime out of costume, but when Stars and Stripes Man signals him that something is going down and he has to spend 3 turns excusing himself from the fundraiser and finding a place to change without revealing his Secret ID (even if the change itself only takes one phase), then that is a Limitation. Now if all your PCs just hang out at their base all day, in costume, or roaming the city on "patrol" then maybe that Limitation just isn't right for your campaign. Doesn't mean the Limitation doesn't have its place in the system or that it can't be used without being "munchkiny".

[Chimera 12]

Re: Gargoyle

 

I understand the limitation' date=' I just don't believe the limitations are worth the price savings. How many often will the character be ambushed? if it's all the time, cool may be worth the saving, although you're probably going to have some annoyed players. I'm with Escafarc, unless it can be easily stopped or is difficult to change, it's not really a OIHID.[/url]

 

While I agree that a Limitation that isn't a Limitation in practice shouldn't be worth any cost breaks, OIAID is one of those Limitations that rely on the GM to properly enforce them. In other words, if you take powers with it? That's a way of telling the GM "I want this complication to come up; I want to be caught in the wrong ID often enough that not having my powers instantly available is actually a problem." (And it should be a problem distinct from just having to maintain a secret ID; you presumably already got the points for taking that Complication. No double dipping, please.)

 

For the poster child for this kind of Limitation, think Focus. If your character has an ostensibly Breakable OAF weapon, but it's always conveniently at hand whenever he needs it instead of lying forgotten at home from time to time and the GM never has anybody actually try to break it or take it away from your character...then what did you get the -1 Limitation for?

[Checkmate]

Re: Gargoyle

 

It's not so much about "ambushing the players". If' date=' in your games, the players go out and interact in the regular world out of costume fairly regularly, it will come up. Iron guy doesn't have to be at the scene of the crime out of costume, but when Stars and Stripes Man signals him that something is going down and he has to spend 3 turns excusing himself from the fundraiser and finding a place to change without revealing his Secret ID (even if the change itself only takes one phase), then that is a Limitation. Now if all your PCs just hang out at their base all day, in costume, or roaming the city on "patrol" then maybe that Limitation just isn't right for [i']your[/i] campaign. Doesn't mean the Limitation doesn't have its place in the system or that it can't be used without being "munchkiny".

You're right that is a limitation, it's called Secret ID and is worth 15 points (in 5th ed. anyway). For 15 points I absolutely think it's worth the cost.

While I agree that a Limitation that isn't a Limitation in practice shouldn't be worth any cost breaks' date=' OIAID is one of those Limitations that rely on the GM to properly enforce them. In other words, if you take powers with it? That's a way of telling the GM "I [i']want[/i] this complication to come up; I want to be caught in the wrong ID often enough that not having my powers instantly available is actually a problem." (And it should be a problem distinct from just having to maintain a secret ID; you presumably already got the points for taking that Complication. No double dipping, please.)

Okay again, I know how the limitation works. The problem I have with it is in order for the GM to enforce that large of a point savings, you have to annoy everyone at the table.

For the poster child for this kind of Limitation, think Focus. If your character has an ostensibly Breakable OAF weapon, but it's always conveniently at hand whenever he needs it instead of lying forgotten at home from time to time and the GM never has anybody actually try to break it or take it away from your character...then what did you get the -1 Limitation for?

The Focus is absolutely worth the points. A simple disarm, and poof it just limited you. I don't have to contrive every story around your limitation. I mean think of your past games. How many times has it actually come up? How many times has a character needed to use their powers in civilian ID that the Secret ID disad wasn't more limiting that OIHID (which most people take both OIHID and Secret ID)?

 

On a 350 point character adding OIHID to everything basically gives you an extra 87 points to work with. You can put that limitation on EVERYTHING. Characteristics, Powers, Skills can all be justified with OIHID. With a OAF Focus you typically save what 40-ish points on a 60 point multipower, and as I've said, a simple disarm and you've just paid for those points.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Gargoyle

 

You're right that is a limitation' date=' it's called Secret ID and is worth 15 points (in 5th ed. anyway). For 15 points I absolutely think it's worth the cost.[/quote']

My example might have been poorly stated, but my point stands. Superman has a Secret ID, but he can use his powers if he needs to, even when out of costume. Iron Man has to go climb into his armor and that's only if he can get to it. If you honestly can't see the difference there...

[Escafarc]

Re: Gargoyle

 

My example might have been poorly stated' date=' but my point stands. Superman has a Secret ID, but he can use his powers if he needs to, even when out of costume. Iron Man has to [i']go climb into his armor[/i] and that's only if he can get to it. If you honestly can't see the difference there...

 

Well I would make Iron Man buy his Armor as a Focus(or even a Vehicle in some games) so that example doesn't work for me.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Gargoyle

 

Well I would make Iron Man buy his Armor as a Focus(or even a Vehicle in some games) so that example doesn't work for me.

Good to know. If I ever play with you and face a Power Armor character I'll expect him to start losing powers every time damage gets through to him, since I'm damaging the focus every single time as well.

 

I'm not going to sit here and guess what examples will or won't work for you, that would be foolish. I'm sure you can think of plenty yourself (and the assembled heroites dozens more), unless you just blatantly oppose OIHI in general, in which case, no possible example will work for you.

[Chimera 12]

Re: Gargoyle

 

The Focus is absolutely worth the points. A simple disarm' date=' and poof it just limited you. I don't have to contrive every story around your limitation.[/quote']

Actually, you do. My point was exactly that if you, as the GM, never bother to take advantage of that Focus -- by actually taking the time to have some NPC try that disarm, for example --, it's no more of a Limitation than Only In Alternate ID is. So you do, in fact, have to 'contrive' events around it to make it worth the points; it may not be as immediately obvious, but it's exactly the same situation.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Gargoyle

 

Actually' date=' you do. My point was exactly that if you, as the GM, never bother to take advantage of that Focus -- by actually taking the time to have some NPC [i']try[/i] that disarm, for example --, it's no more of a Limitation than Only In Alternate ID is. So you do, in fact, have to 'contrive' events around it to make it worth the points; it may not be as immediately obvious, but it's exactly the same situation.

Since combat happens pretty much every game with most groups and anyone can do a disarm, I would not consider that "contrived". I mean, it's not like you "contrive" to punch a PC, that's just a matter of course in most games.

[Chimera 12]

Re: Gargoyle

 

Since combat happens pretty much every game with most groups and anyone can do a disarm' date=' I would not consider that "contrived". I mean, it's not like you "contrive" to punch a PC, that's just a matter of course in most games.[/quote']

 

Different degrees of contrivance, is all. Sure, I can have a campaign in which the drawbacks of OIAID never come up. I can also have one in which no NPC ever actually tries to do anything more complex to player characters than one Strike maneuver after the other -- no disarms, no grabs, no teamwork. The latter would likely eventually end up feeling more like a videogame than an actual RPG...but the NPCs are under the GM's control, and there's no minimum requirement for clever tactics on their part actually mandated anywhere. So, as I said -- how often an OAF actually limits the character who has it is a GM call.

[JmOz]

Re: Gargoyle

 

CHANGING TOPICS: I did make some modifications to the character, namely lowered his strength & Defences, added some skills, and decided to remove some things I considered cheese

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Gargoyle

 

Sorry if I contributed to de-railing your thread JmOz. I like the character.

[JmOz]

Re: Gargoyle

 

no problem, I know how these things happen, I only capatilized the one part as a sign post not as a I'm upset type of thing

[Checkmate]

Re: Gargoyle

 

Bigbywolfe,

I do see your point about Superman vs Iron Man and granted in some circumstances Supes is better off, however, if we consider that both Supes and Iron Man have secret ID's, sometimes Iron Man is better off: Wow Clark that huge Daily Planet globe just fell on your head and you don't even have a bump... I consider those SFX bonus/lims. For example if someone leaves a trail of fire when they fly, I'll let it have minor effects like being able to spell something out in the sky, but it will also let the enemies know he's around. They're minor ads and disads that balance each other out.

 

I agree that any GM worth his salt can come up with situations that will hinder a OIHID character. If he does it an average of 1 time every 4 sessions, it probably won't even be TOO annoying to other players. The problem I have with it though, is that I feel the amount of points you save can't be justified without seriously annoying others with severely contrived stories.

 

Chimera 12,

While technically you are correct, so is someone who says that a fly's butt and the Grand Canyon are both holes.

[Yansuf]

Re: Gargoyle

 

Please see the thread on "OIHID"