Advice needed for balancing my first 6E campaign

[lendrick]

This is kind of a continuation of a thread I started a week ago with a bunch of newbie questions. I've done a lot of reading and thinking since then (plus I've muddled around in Hero Designer), and my discovery is that with 6th edition (with Star Hero not out yet) I'm pretty much on my own in terms of determining how I'm going to put the system to use. This is both awesome and really scary.

 

Some background info: I'm going to be starting my players out with pre-generated characters for an adventure or two so they can get the feel for everything and then let them make characters of their own. My current plan is to run a heroic campaign and start them off at 150 points. I'm not going to allow them to build their own powers (some of them are notorious rules lawyers) but if they come up with cool non-game-breaking ideas, I'll implement them myself.

 

The actual campaign will be a fairly standard space-based campaign with multiple alien races and psionics. I'll be capping their abilities to the "Standard" values listed on 6E1 p35, possibly with the ability to exceed them at a large character point cost. For characteristics not listed on that table (BODY, STUN), I'll be capping them at the top end of the "Competent" range in the comparison table in 6E1 p 48. Does that seem fairly reasonable?

 

In terms of equipment, I'll be assigning the cost per item to 100 times its point cost, and giving them 5000 credits to purchase gear, which should limit them (at the beginning) to 50 points' worth of equipment, without making the equipment into a "power" like in a Superheroic campaign. Is *that* reasonable?

 

Now, the meaty questions:

 

• I'd like to have them fight off large numbers of generic goons. Assuming 150 points for a player character (plus 50 for gear), how many points (ballpark, I know it's a matter of preference) should a typical goon have? What kind of damage class should they be able to do?
  
• Is there a good way to calculate how challenging a particular encounter will be for a whole party? That is, how many goons can I throw at them at once? If they fight a single "boss" NPC, how powerful can that NPC be to pose a serious challenge but not wipe them out?
  
• Endurance seems pretty easy to come by, relative to how much various powers cost. How does this balance out in actual combat? Do people find that special powers are used too frequently if you don't increase the endurance cost of them to very high levels, or are things relatively well balanced as is? I don't want my psionicists to seem like super heroes.
  
• Would anyone be interested in looking at my WIP list of psionic abilities and giving some suggestions?
  

Thanks!

Bart

[Nevenall]

Re: Advice needed for balancing my first 6E campaign

 

It's hard to say, in points, what is a good range, because so much depends what the powers involved are and how much defenses others have.

When you run a combat it will be clear really fast what's too much and what's too little. I'd say make some characters and run some sample combats to see how it goes.

You could even make it a "holodeck" type adventure.

[Daltwisney]

Re: Advice needed for balancing my first 6E campaign

 

Balancing a HERO game can be a tricky thing, but here are a couple basics:

 

The PCs should have an advantage. The goons (or mooks) already have an advantage - numbers. The typical PC advantage is Defense, as measured by SPD, CVs, and Defense Characteristics.

 

SPD is pretty obvious, more actions is generally better.

 

If the mooks have CVs a couple points lower than the PCs, this increases the likelihood than the PCs will hit them, and lowers the chance that they will hit the PCs. Just be sure that the mooks have enough of a chance to hit that the PCs are actually in some danger.

 

If both sides are armed with fairly equivalent weapons, the mooks should pose enough of a threat that eventually they can wear the PCs down. This means that the PCs have some level of defense (PD or ED) that is superior to the mooks. Typically, a PC should be able to 1 or 2 shot a mook, but the reverse usually isn't true (though a lucky head shot can spoil a PC's day).

 

As far as 'Bosses' go, most of the above applies, except that the boss should have the ability to weather the PC's attacks for a time, forcing them to wear him down, or use special tactics. Also, bosses are usually surrounded by a few mooks or mook+ lieutenant types, forcing the PCs to split their focus at the start.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Advice needed for balancing my first 6E campaign

 

I'd like to have them fight off large numbers of generic goons. Assuming 150 points for a player character (plus 50 for gear)' date=' how many points (ballpark, I know it's a matter of preference) should a typical goon have? What kind of damage class should they be able to do?[/quote']If the equipment is fairly standardized, the DC should be appropriate for the equipment. As far as points, I never worry about that. I usually assign between 1 - 7 body for goons so that they tend to get one-shotted fairly regularly. Goons usually get 3 CV across the board (maybe upwards of 4 if I am feeling generous to the faceless masses) plus whatever bonuses the equipment gives them. They have Everyman skills only plus whatever Weapon Familiarities they need to use the guns they have. Goons, being disposable, need nothing further.

 

Is there a good way to calculate how challenging a particular encounter will be for a whole party? That is, how many goons can I throw at them at once? If they fight a single "boss" NPC, how powerful can that NPC be to pose a serious challenge but not wipe them out?

I have designed encounters specifically so that the characters could walk through a bunch of minions, only to have the characters stomped on (bad player die rolls versus good GM ones). Aside from that, pay close attention to DEF versus Body and Stun. Just a couple of points in either direction (high or low) can make a huge difference.

 

HERO does not lend itself well to the single opponent boss versus characters unless the boss is really scaled up. I would probably up his DEF more than anything and possibly Speed. If you up his DC, he will probably wipe out the party. Best advice I can give you is go easy for the first couple of combats. Feel your way. If the enemy was dropped too quickly, increase the next one's DEF, Body, and Stun. If the bad guy isn't doing enough damage, increase that DC. If he was Stunned too easy, CON is your bet. Running out of END, increase END and Recovery so his post-12 Recovery compensates enough so he doesn't have to take Recoveries in the middle of combat.

 

Speed and DEX. Mooks should be Speed 2, 3 tops. Henchman should be just under the heroes. Lieutenants should be right around the PC level. Master villains should be ahead of the PCs but by how much depends on your game. If your cap is 4, the MV should be 5 (6 absolute tops and have a good reason why - for yourself as much as the players).

 

 

• Endurance seems pretty easy to come by, relative to how much various powers cost. How does this balance out in actual combat? Do people find that special powers are used too frequently if you don't increase the endurance cost of them to very high levels, or are things relatively well balanced as is? I don't want my psionicists to seem like super heroes.
  

I have found Endurance burns out pretty fast. The faster the Speed (and hence number of attacks) the faster it burns. Post-12 will only recover so much of that precious END and STUN, so fast characters may have to take Recoveries more often than slower ones. Having a high Recovery is a great asset for high speed characters.

 

Would anyone be interested in looking at my WIP list of psionic abilities and giving some suggestions?

I'm quite sure you will get all sorts of answers if you post them.

 

As another suggestion, establish campaign guidelines for Characteristics Max, Skill Roll Max, DC Max, DEF Max, CV Max, Speed Max, Max Active Power Points, and all that other stuff. Stick with it and build your adventures around it. It's okay to raise those limits at certain "checkpoints" in the campaign, but MAKE THE PLAYER CHARACTERS STICK TO THEM. ~ahem~ Sorry for the shouting. That is the one lesson I learned quickly when running. Depending on what type of game you are running, even a marginal increase over those limits may make a character completely over-class his fellows. To challenge that character requires greater challenges than the other characters are perhaps able to meet.

[Utech]

Re: Advice needed for balancing my first 6E campaign

 

I'd like to have them fight off large numbers of generic goons. Assuming 150 points for a player character (plus 50 for gear)' date=' how many points (ballpark, I know it's a matter of preference) should a typical goon have? What kind of damage class should they be able to do?[/quote']

 

• First, decide if you want your PCs to one-shot the goons. If so, forget about point values for DEF, CON, STUN, BODY, etc. On a successful hit, the goon goes down.
  
• If you don't want goons to be one-shotable, decide if you want your PCs to stun the goons on a successful hit. If so, Work out how much damage your PCs average with their most common attacks and call that number A. Goon DEF + CON must be less than A. If no, goon DEF + CON must be higher than A.
  

 

Next decide how easily you want the heroes to hit the goons.

 

• Goons DCV is a point or two higher than average PC OCV = difficult to hit. PCs will have to figure out ways to improve their OCV or just keep rolling and hope to get lucky. Sometimes this is frustrating.
  
• Goons DCV is the same as average PC OCV = hit and miss. PCs don't have to manage a lot of special tactics, but doing so will speed up the fight.
  
• Goons DCV is a point or two lower than average PC OCV = easy to hit. PCs can bash away.
  
• Goons DCV is three or more points lower than average PC OCV = hard to miss. PCs might enjoy creative trick shots since standard bashing is just too easy.
  

Next decide how easily you want the goons to hit the heroes. Honestly, this really only matters if the goons can damage the heroes. You might want to give the goons extra OCV when there are a lot of them together. That way the mass of goons is tough when the heroes start, but gets easier to handle as the heroes reduce the number of goons.

 

Next decide how much damage you want the goons to do to the heroes. Work out the average PC DEF and call that D. Generally you want goon damage to be higher than D but lower than D + CON. You might want to give the goons extra DCs when there are a lot of them together or give a couple of the goons BFGs that the heroes need to respect (and destroy). A goon BFG should definitely do more damage than D + CON.

 

Is there a good way to calculate how challenging a particular encounter will be for a whole party? That is' date=' how many goons can I throw at them at once?[/quote']

Not really. A point or two difference here or there can really swing things. With goons it's easy to start an encounter with a few of them and simply have more pop out of the woodwork as needed. For the encounter to really feel like a goon rush, you'll need at least half again as many goons as PCs. I'd recommend 2x as many. If the goons are one-shotable, go with up to 5x as many.

 

If they fight a single "boss" NPC' date=' how powerful can that NPC be to pose a serious challenge but not wipe them out? [/quote']

 

• A boss' average damage should be about D + CON. He should have a stronger attack that is less accurate and/or can be taken away from him. He should have a weaker attack that is more accurate and/or works against PCs with unusual defenses.
  
• The boss' DEF + CON should be significantly higher than A. You don't want the boss Stunned unless the heroes coordinate attacks and/or do something really remarkable. Putting the Limitation "Not Against Surprise Attacks" on some DEF helps. Consider giving the boss lower DEF, high CON, and give him Damage Reduction. Damage Reduction means the heroes will do damage on most successful hits -- just not much of it.
  
• Boost all boss stats if his Speed is lower than PC average. Nerf all boss stats if his Speed is higher than PC average.
  
• If the boss is being defeated too easily, have him summon goons.
  
• If the boss is too tough, make sure he's vulnerable to something in the environment and/or a seldom-used PC attack. Have him monologue about how superior he is. Then tell the PCs they need to get creative.
  

 

Endurance seems pretty easy to come by' date=' relative to how much various powers cost. How does this balance out in actual combat? Do people find that special powers are used too frequently if you don't increase the endurance cost of them to very high levels, or are things relatively well balanced as is? I don't want my psionicists to seem like super heroes. [/quote']

I don't usually have a problem with this. Try it out in your game. If it's a problem, try one of these solutions:

 

• Cap PC END scores.
  
• Slap a 2x END cost (minimum) on psionics.
  
• Have Psionics draw END from an Endurance Reserve.
  
• Put Charges on psionics.
  
• Make Extra Time or Concentration or similar Limitations standard on psionics.
  

Would anyone be interested in looking at my WIP list of psionic abilities and giving some suggestions?

Post it. Someone will.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Re: Advice needed for balancing my first 6E campaign

 

As mentioned above, the best rule of thumb is to calculate average damage and average number of hits to takedown target. Generally I've found 1-2 hits for mooks and 3-4 for PCs for PC level attacks. Mooks should do about 1-3 less DCs than PCs and that'll typically mean they'll have to do 1 more hit to take a PC down. Giving them slightly weaker CV values will also give PCs a "mighty" feeling. Making sure that the PCs have access to a "second lifebar" option such as healing or aid stun also makes things easier since they'll be able to take a lot more punishment.

 

Playing mooks more simply and tactically less flexible is another way to even out the odds. If mooks don't abort except in the most obvious of cases, they'll be taken down quite quickly. This is because it helps reduce the impact of having higher numbers since they can't just have the target abort to save themselves and have the rest focus fire the attacker (our group calls this "wolf pack tactics"). Also keeping mooks down once they are knocked out (in my experience KOs are more common than deaths) helps PCs take them out and speeds up play.

 

Lone Boss NPCs are a whole different matter. I've found 75% DR to be a must and set static defenses so that the PCs will do 3-5 stun a hit. Typically this means 10-15 hits to takedown (though I've seen much higher or lower numbers work and should vary based on party size). I guess you can make the boss virtually unhittable (though super high CVs or speed) and have lower defenses, but that makes the fight way more swingly and possibly make entangle + all levels on damage team attacks super effective. CVs, DCs, and Speed should be higher than the PCs though how much so varies, but should only be at most 4 higher than the PCs. What’s far more important for boss npcs is not being a big pile of combat values, but to have a gimmick.

 

Generally it should have some sort of unusual construction so you have fights like “destroy its eyes first to stop its eyebeam attack!” or “it’s actually unstoppable but you have to keep the artifact of doom away from it until you can dump said artifact into Mt. Doom.” Basically something to make sure the fight is memorable and different. A simple way to do this is to have the boss have something nasty but limited in some way that the PCs can directly influence and is outside the norm for them. It’s more of an art than a science since the gimmicks players will like will vary from group to group.

 

Always make sure the gimmick is obvious, something that can do about (stopping it, mitigating its effects, or turning it on the boss), and should matter for the fight. If you’re worried about the PCs getting defeated still, be sure to design an “out” so things can continue even if the PCs are defeated (such as NPC help, the boss just wants to KO the PCs and not kill them, or capture). You can have it so that the PCs still lose something if defeated (a beloved NPC dies, they’re captured, or they lose the lead).

 

If you want "bread and butter" epic fights, I suggest team battles where the PCs fight a roughly equal team of NPCs (in terms of power and number). This keeps having all your combat eggs in one basket, and generally leads to rivalries, heckling, foils, and other fun PC-NPC interactions.

 

To keep special powers “special” and not just have psychics (or freaky alien race powers) shoot mind bullets instead of regular ones, there’s several ways to keep this in line. First off, since you’re heroic, some of the problem is already solved. Why pay 30 character points for the ability to do a 2d6 RKA mind bullet when you can just buy a 2d6 RKA gun with cash? Therefore, you’ll likely see psionics show up to cover things that the PCs can’t do with equipment (some forms of clairsentience, mental blast, mind control, mental illusions and the like).

 

Since I’m assuming your weapons are No END, that means psychics will be using more END than their gun using counterparts. If moving and maybe a little bit of STR are your only END costs (1-3), you can get away with 20 END and 4 Rec. A psychic is likely using more like 4-6 END (assuming 45 AP power) a phase and thus will need to put points into higher END and REC. Even if they spend 5 points towards this, that’s 3% of their starting CP and means forgoing a skill and a skill level or 5 presence. If you make it END x 2, things will be even tougher for the psychic. However, if you’re out of combat, END costs don’t really matter. Even if you have to take some stun, you can just take a 12 second breather and most certainly be fine (this is part of the reason why our group banned out of combat aids and succors).

 

So I’ll ask myself, “are psychic powers suppose to be combat useful or out of combat useful?” If it’s the latter, then you can easier make it not worth it though limitations. If it’s the former, I’ll be careful. If I’m a psychic and I paid points for combat useful psychic powers, but I find myself defaulting to my gun, I’m just wasting those points. The exceptions to this are situational powers like teleportation and desolidification since you won’t use them all the time, but when you do, you’re really happy you have them. It may be best to keep powers (especially alien racial powers) in this category if you want to keep their uses “rare.”

 

I’ll also be up for reviewing powers. Be sure to keep in mind equipment as well. For example, are you using Active Points or Real Points for the cost? I can see arguments for either, but it’ll have a huge impact on the game.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Advice needed for balancing my first 6E campaign

 

I agree with everything Hida Tsuzua says, and want to repeat one point he made indirectly, directly.

 

PCs will use "Wolf Pack Tactics" on single boss monsters. If all the PCs have 3 speed, and the boss has 6, they will all hold, abort when attacked, and the others will then hit the boss with impunity. You need to cut down on this by:

 

1) having enough speed that the boss can keep hitting one guy and they can't abort fast enough (double or so works pretty good). This does mean your boss will punish one PC and be shafted if he switches targets

 

2) Hit many targets on a single phase (AoE, Multiple Attack, Autofire, whatever)

 

3) Be built with either secondary speed or duplication to take many actions on his phases

 

or something along those lines. That's not an exaustive list, but a starting list. I will also look over your equipment and psychic powers