Building a Wall of Fire spell

[slaughterj]

In tooling around 6e some, I decided to try to build a Wall of Fire spell where the mage casts it and it stays up and running for a short while independently (i.e., mage can run away, get ko'd, switch Multipower, etc.), and just damages (i.e. not an actual barrier). After some effort, this seems to be what I need to include:

 

Area of Effect (Line), 4m tall & 16m long +1/2

Constant +1/2

Uncontrolled +1/2

Costs END to Activate +1/4

Time Limit, 1 Turn +1/4

 

This leads to some questions:

1. Is there anything I am missing? Other advantages/limitations to include?) Something I am not understanding about the foregoing to make my construct work as intended?

2. These are a lot of advantages, meaning the base attack power has to be pretty low in order to not bust AP caps (or ability to even buy it). To keep within 60 AP (a stretch for standard heroes in Fantasy Hero under the guidelines), basically this means either a 4D6 blast or a 1D6 RKA with Penetrating (AVAD/NND is possible too, but don't seem particularly appropriate). However, either of those options are not particularly compelling, as even against mooks, the blast is maybe 8 stun after defenses and the penetrating RKA is 2 body - that's just not enough to deter someone from going through it (sure, people don't *know* how strong it is, but PCs facing an evil wizard with this kind of effect could guess it to be very weak given the inordinate cost of advantages to make it happen). While the advantages do add up, they are not *that* powerful in the grand scheme of things without some decent base damage. What can be done to make this work as desired, yet actually be meaningful in terms of game effect?

 

I like the detail Hero can provide, but the inordinate cost of things like this seems a bit troubling.

[AlHazred]

Re: Building a Wall of Fire spell

 

What are your standards for the campaign? If you're using the Turakian Age standard of dividing the Real Cost by 3, it shouldn't be too heavy a price for a decent amount of damage.

 

When I stat something like this out, I start from Hero standards. If it's supposed to be as hot as flaming oil, then a maximum of 1d6+1 RKA should make the AP about 60, which is the most common standard in the 5E Grimoires. Assuming Gestures, Incantations, Skill Roll, and OAF Expendable, you're talking 18 points; divided by 3, the mage spends 6 points for it. For a Constant, Area Effecting attack power, that's not too shabby.

16....Wall Of Fire ['Realistic']: RKA 1d6+1, Area Of Effect (16m Line; +1/4), Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4), Time Limit (1 Turn; +1/4), Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Penetrating (+1/2) (65 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Difficult to obtain; piece of coal with Fire Runes inlaid in silver on it; -1 1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Requires A Roll (Fire Magic Skill roll; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Limited Range (50m; -1/4), Side Effects (Side Effect only affects the environment near the character; nearby flammable items begin to smolder and burn; -0)....END=6

For a more cinematic feel, you can increase the size of it (more impressive) but make it Nonselective -- don't bother rolling against the NPCs and mooks who run through it who cry out the Wilhelm scream before roasting, but Heroes run through with nothing more than smudges.

16....Wall Of Fire [Cinematic]: RKA 1d6+1, Area Of Effect Nonselective (16m Long, 2m Tall, 3m Wide Line; +1/4), Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4), Time Limit (1 Turn; +1/4), Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Penetrating (+1/2) (65 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Difficult to obtain; piece of coal with Fire Runes inlaid in silver on it; -1 1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Requires A Roll (Fire Magic Skill roll; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Limited Range (50m; -1/4), Side Effects (Side Effect only affects the environment near the character; nearby flammable items begin to smolder and burn; -0)....END=6

Keep in mind, the Real Cost to the mage for either of these spells is 5.

[slaughterj]

Re: Building a Wall of Fire spell

 

Thanks for the response. I'm just trying to stat it out based on the main book for 6e, and am more concerned about AP than RP, e.g., for fitting into a MP, as well as what is reasonable overall for a build. With massive disads and/or fantasy campaign specific cost reductions, I can certainly bring down the RC to a decent level, but that still leaves it as a purchase of undereffective power, and pretty expensive to raise even marginally.

 

Note that changing it from 1D6 RKA to 1D6+1 RKA, while a significant increase in AP cost, is not a significant increase in actual effectiveness. It goes from 3.5 Body and 7 Stun on average to 4.5 Body and 9 Stun, i.e., it does hardly anything to even a mook in leather armor. Further, 1D6+1 RKA does nothing more on the Penetrating than 1D6 RKA, just 2 Body on average for either. So even with a significant cost increase for a negligible power bump, it is still quite underwhelming in effect unfortunately.

 

And stepping away from fantasy level, trying to make it for a superhero still won't make it effective given the low dice of effect versus the excessive cost for the advantages, the AP making it hard to fit in MPs, the lack of disadvantages or cost reductions for fantasy, etc. I just wonder if there is some sort of solution to making this sort of thing effective and work as intended, but at a reasonable cost.

[AlHazred]

Re: Building a Wall of Fire spell

 

So, you want the Wall of Fire to do more damage, for no more than 60 Active Points.

11.....Wall Of Fire [inescapable]: RKA 1d6, Area Of Effect (16m Line; +1/4), Constant (+1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Life Support [safe Environment: Intense Heat]; All Or Nothing; +1), Does BODY (+1) (56 Active Points); OAF Expendable (Difficult to obtain; piece of coal with Fire Runes inlaid in silver on it; -1 1/4), 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Requires A Roll (Fire Magic Skill roll; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Limited Range (50m; -1/4), Side Effects (Side Effect only affects the environment near the character; nearby flammable items begin to smolder and burn; -0)....[1 cc]

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Building a Wall of Fire spell

 

Get rid of Uncontrolled and just buy it as Continuing Charges.

 

Basically, compound power, Force Wall + linked/unified 0 Range RKA Damage Shield, Continuous, X Charges (Continuing X Time)

 

Or just the AE Line RKA, Continuous, X Continuing Charges (Continuing X Time)

[slaughterj]

Re: Building a Wall of Fire spell

 

So' date=' you want the Wall of Fire to do more damage, for no more than 60 Active Points.[/quote']

 

Thanks, the AVAD plus Does Body route is something I can explore. I'm not too interested in the charges route though, since (a) I want it to be usable a bit more frequently (charges seem a bit wonky to me for magic, too much like DnD; sure, I could up the # of charges, but...), and ( I want it to cost END on the start (maybe there's a solution for this, perhaps it is another limitation?).

 

It seems like Uncontrolled with Time Limit is the exact representation of how I want it to work, but if I want it to work effectively (i.e., enough damage), then maybe the only choice is to go the Continuing Charges route, even if it isn't exactly how I want it to work...it seems maybe Uncontrolled with Time Limit should somehow work out a little cheaper instead so people can practically build things...

[AlHazred]

Re: Building a Wall of Fire spell

 

Generally, Hero is a cinematic system. For 60 Active Points, you get an attack that should be lethal to normal (8 BODY) people with relative frequency. If it's used against competent Normals or Heroes, then it'll be less effective by an order of magnitude. You have several choices.

 

• You can use Charges. Since they severely limit the utility of the power, they are worth a big Limitation value. They might not fit the flavor you want for your magic powers, though.
  
• You can use Uncontrolled, Constant powers, without Charges. Since they are very useful, they make the power much more expensive.
  
• You can reduce the value of ED for most types of Armor. There's really no reason that plate armor should provide 8 ED versus fire damage -- it's basically a big tin can, and metal has good heat-conductive properties. Reducing the ED value of armor, even a 1d6+1 Fire RKA will be dangerous to Heroes, unless they have magic to protect them. Since you control the magic, you can control this as well.
  

I've been thinking of that last option myself.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Building a Wall of Fire spell

 

Well, the nice thing about charges is you'll be able to up the damage as you are losing an advantage, thus lowering the active points per die. Don't think of it like "spells per day" think of it as some special thing they have to prepare to do the spell.

 

But yeah, for 60 AP, at least in 5th, I can't work it out to much more than 1d6+1 RKA with the expected effects (AoE Line, Continuous, etc.)

 

Wall of Fire: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6+1, Area Of Effect (16" Line; +1), Continuous (+1) (60 Active Points); 4 Recoverable Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (Recovers Under Limited Circumstances; -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4)

 

(I didn't worry about any other limitations so far as gestures and such, figure you can add that to your taste.)

[Ice9]

Re: Building a Wall of Fire spell

 

One question - why is the Time Limit advantage being applied to an attack that already has Constant, Uncontrolled, and OCETA? Such an attack could already last forever, or at least as long as the GM felt was reasonable.

Not that it makes a big difference to the cost of the power.

[slaughterj]

Re: Building a Wall of Fire spell

 

Offhand, I think that AE(Line) is only +1/2 in 6e, and Constant is +1/2, so that may help.

[slaughterj]

Re: Building a Wall of Fire spell

 

One question - why is the Time Limit advantage being applied to an attack that already has Constant, Uncontrolled, and OCETA? Such an attack could already last forever, or at least as long as the GM felt was reasonable.

Not that it makes a big difference to the cost of the power.

 

Good question! Without Time Limit, then instead, maybe a disadvantage would be appropriate for a short duration, e.g., 1 Turn? This makes me have to look back and see what the point of Time Limit is again?!

[Armitage]

Re: Building a Wall of Fire spell

 

Plugging it into Hero Designer I get:

 

Wall of Fire: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6+1, Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4), Time Limit (1 Turn; +1/4), Area Of Effect (16m Long, 4m Tall, 2m Wide Line; +1/2), Constant (+1/2) (50 Active Points)

 

or

 

Wall of Fire: Killing Attack - Ranged 1 1/2d6, Costs Endurance Only To Activate (+1/4), Time Limit (1 Turn; +1/4), Area Of Effect (16m Long, 4m Tall, 2m Wide Line; +1/2), Constant (+1/2) (62 Active Points)

 

If you want Penetrating, It's 1d6+1 for 60 Active Points.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Building a Wall of Fire spell

 

Can someone please explain why Time Limit is an Advantage when it's placed on a power that has also bought Constant? I haven't read throug 6E yet, but this seems odd. What am I missing? Does it replace the need for a simple way to de-activate the power or something? If not, wouldn't it be a Limitation?

[Armitage]

Re: Building a Wall of Fire spell

 

Can someone please explain why Time Limit is an Advantage when it's placed on a power that has also bought Constant? I haven't read throug 6E yet' date=' but this seems odd. What am I missing? Does it replace the need for a simple way to de-activate the power or something? If not, wouldn't it be a Limitation?[/quote']

 

A Constant Power turns off if you lose Line of Sight or if you're Stunned of Knocked Out. A Constant Power with Time Limit keeps running, like Uncontrolled. In fact, beyond a 1 Minute Duration, it's cheaper to buy Uncontrolled and simply state a fixed Duration, as suggested in the section on 0 END Uncontrolled Powers on 6E1 352.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Building a Wall of Fire spell

 

I've seen people use the Time Limit Advantage on Uncontrolled, Constant Powers as well, which is part of my confusion. I take it they were just doing wrong then...

[Shinobi Killfis]

Re: Building a Wall of Fire spell

 

This may be cheesing it out a bit further than you like but

 

2d6 blast AoE line +1/2, constant, +1/2, cost end to activate +1/4, uncontrolled +1/2, sticky +1/2 AVLD(LS heat) + 1 1/2, does body +1.

 

Anyways my thought it with sticky people who travel through the area catch on fire and take damage for the rest of the duration.

 

Instead of AVLD you could go with penetrating and make it a killing attack.