Requires another power limitation?

[shnar]

Is there a way for a power to require another power? I'm thinking magic, how many spells and abilities are learned in a specific order (i.e. must learn the Fire Control spell before learning the Fire Bolt spell, before learning the Fire Ball spell). Is there a way to enforce this in the game with a Limitation or something?

 

I know I could just enforce it as a GM in my world, but that doesn't feel like the proper HERO way of doing things. Is there another way to do this?

 

-shnar

[dmjalund]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

Actually enforcing as GM is really the only thing to do. As, If a person has the prerequisite power (the only one who can buy the power), this power does not limit him. If the person does not have the prerequisite power, he cannot spend points on it, so any limitation is irrelevant.

[AlHazred]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

In the original Fantasy Hero Grimoire, you'll find spells with the limitation where you needed to have X points in magic spells of the correct school before you buy this spell. This was supposed to separate the magic spells into Easy, Moderate, Hard, etc. Each 10 real points was a -1/4 limitation. However, it fell out of favor because it's not really limiting the character much. The better way is to do as dmjalund describes above, provide the PCs with in-game reasons for restrictions on magic. This is so that you can always have the wild-card talent, extremely gifted apprentice, or other MacGuffin that "breaks the rules of Magic."

[Markdoc]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

Or, if you want an in-game mechanism, set up a game specific-rationale that spells are written with the assumption that you already know the prior spell (-0 limitation).

 

You can do this several ways. If you are using a skill roll, specify that if you don't know the pre-requisite spell, that gives you a -5 on your skill roll. So a guy trying to cast a Fire Ball spell

without learning Fire Control spell and Fire Bolt spell, is at -10. He's diving in at the deep end.

If you are not using RSR, give the spells an activation roll (14-/11-/8-) with side effect. So a guy trying to cast a Fire Ball spell

without learning Fire Control spell and Fire Bolt spell, has an 11- chance that it will generate a nasty side effect, but only an 8- chance if he knows Fire control.

 

These limitations are -0 since they affect all casters equally and because if you have the correct spells (which most casters will), you are not limited at all.

 

cheers, Mark

[shnar]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

That's kind of why I was looking for a limitation, so that characters that do the "proper" spell progression get a discount of sorts, but the prodigies that bypass the basics have to pay more. I'll take a look at that Grimoire and see if I like that and incorporate it in the campaign.

 

-shnar

[AlHazred]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

I'm trying to determine if my memory was correct about where the Limitation showed up (I know the limitation value is correct). The limitation doesn't show up in the 4th edition Fantasy Hero book.

[AlHazred]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

Pardon me, I was looking at the 3rd edition Fantasy Hero book.

 

LIMITED POWER

Expertise

Some spells require a certain level of background knowledge before they can be cast; this is especially appropriate for spells organized into magical colleges. To use a certain spell, a wizard must have this many real points in spells from the particular college:

 

10 points: -1/4

20 points: -1/2

30 points: -3/4

40 points: -1

 

To take the expertise Limitation means that a character is required to invest a certain amount of time (or points, anyway) in the college to use its spells. This Limitation particularly affects magicians who are learning their craft during the course of the game, as they will need to accumulate enough experience to buy a block of spells before they may use a single one. Generally, the lower the minimum point value, the less intensive the magic college is.

 

For example, fire magic might be easy to learn, requiring little total investment, whereas time wizards might study a lifetime to master their enchantments. Generally, all spells within a college take the same Limitation, although more difficult spells in a college may have greater Limitations, indicating that they require much more overall study to master.

[shnar]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

I like that. Is that frowned on now-a-days? I was reviewing FH 5th Ed chapter on magic, and the part about armor and a wizard seemed like it would be "campaign rules" instead of an actual limitation on the spell (i.e. cannot cast while wearing metal -1/4 or something). Is it more HEROish to not make these limitations but make them campaign rules instead (with maybe new talents to surpass the established systems)?

 

-shnar

[AlHazred]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

Cannot Cast While Wearing Metal (-1/4) would be a valid limitation. Why? Because it has a mechanical effect that can be exploited to the detriment of the caster. If "everybody knows" wizards can't cast while wearing metal, controlling incarcerated mages becomes easy -- just attach a metal collar to them, or put them in a riveted-shut metal plastron or something (whatever's required to keep them from casting).

 

Must Have 20 Points Of Spells To Cast (-1/2) is frowned on because it has no mechanical effect. How do I, as a non-mage, use this to the detriment of the caster? I guess I could perform brain surgery to remove his knowledge of spells, but that's not always going to be convenient and possible. Compare the actual limiting factor of the Limitation to one of equivalent value. In this case, compare it to OIF (armor, -1/2). Once I learn my 20 points in spells (which I was probably going to do anyway), where's it going to come into play? On the other hand, the armor is a pain to wear all the time, and can be removed by antagonists under the right circumstances over the course of a Turn.

[shnar]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

True, however the "required points" I'm thinking wouldn't just be on any spells, but on some specific "basic" spells. Ones that players probably wouldn't buy anyways, and that's the limitation ("wasting" points on powers so they can learn the "good" ones). Without the limitation, why would a hero ever buy the mundane spells?

 

Although, thinking of it a different way, rather than providing a cheaper cost to bigger spells, maybe the mundane spells offer better casting abilities, similar to what Markdoc was suggesting. Maybe it's not a limitation at all, but each X-points in spells adds a bonus to the spell casting roll?

 

-shnar

[Ice9]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

The problem with this as a limitation is the same as NCM - there's not really a trade-off in play, and even in character creation it's just a math question whether it saves you points or not, not really a choice.

[shnar]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

So a Limitation has to have an affect in play? It can't be in limiting what the hero can buy?

 

-shnar

[Markdoc]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

So a Limitation has to have an affect in play? It can't be in limiting what the hero can buy?

 

-shnar

 

Well, would you allow a character to take "cannot use air powers" as a valid limitation? It would certainly prevent him from buying any air-based spells, but then he'd probably design his character with that in mind, so it wouldn't disadvantage the character in practice. Same with this approach: it's unlikely the player would buy useless spells just to reach that point total, unless there are very few spells in existence - he'll just take 20 or 30 point of useful spells - at which point he really isn't suffering any disadvantage. He's just getting a price break.

 

cheers, Mark

[AlHazred]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

It's unlikely the player would buy useless spells just to reach that point total' date=' unless there are very few spells in existence - he'll just take 20 or 30 point of [b']useful[/b] spells - at which point he really isn't suffering any disadvantage. He's just getting a price break.

Which is fine, if you're the GM and that's the intention, mind you. It's just that it's not really necessary to fill a Power up with "non-limiting" Limitations if your goal is to reach a particular "price point" -- just put a Multiplier on it (0.50 or the Fantasy Hero standard 0.33) to reduce the cost down to what you feel best represents your vision of "reality."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

True' date=' however the "required points" I'm thinking wouldn't just be on any spells, but on some specific "basic" spells. Ones that players probably wouldn't buy anyways, and that's the limitation ("wasting" points on powers so they can learn the "good" ones). Without the limitation, why would a hero ever buy the mundane spells?[/quote']

 

Let me turn that around. Why should the character pay points for spells that aren't helping them in the game? The Warrior isn't paying for WF: Wooden Training Swords, KS: Armor Polish or PS: Grunt Work for Mentor but he probably needed those skills to get his training. If something has no in-game benefit, it should not carry a point cost.

 

Rather than putting a limitation on a larger spell that saves the character 3 points, but requires him to buy a smaller, useless spell that costs 3 points, why not just include the 3 point spell as part of the SFX of the larger spell, and call it a day?

 

So a Limitation has to have an affect in play? It can't be in limiting what the hero can buy?

 

Well' date=' would you allow a character to take "cannot use air powers" as a valid limitation? [/quote']

 

To expand on Markdoc's very valid point, should a "pure" warrior or "pure" rogue get a limitation on all of his skills, characteristics and abilities for "cannot cast spells"? The limitation a character faces from not having certain abilities is the inability to use those abilities in play. His point reward is that he gets to spend the points he would otherwise have spent on those cool abilities he does not have to purchase other cool abilities he gets to use in play.

 

You can only have a 20 STR if you have at least a 15 STR. What should the limitation be on my +5 STR, only if character already has a 15 base STR or higher?

[shnar]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

I'm just trying to find game mechanics to force the players to buy the powers in-progression. Your STR example is a good one. You *have* to buy 15 STR to get 20 STR. You don't have to buy Force Field to get Force Wall. So I thought that maybe Limitations was the way to do that. I was envisioning a pool of spells at different levels (i.e. 10 or so "basic" spells, then a handful of "intermediate" that required X-pts in basic, and a handful of "advance" that required X-pts in intermediate, etc) that was enforced from the mechanics of the game (like you usually see in other systems) rather than the will of the GM...

 

-shnar

[Ice9]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

Still sounds like a campaign rule rather than a limitation - even if it was a limitation, players could just choose not to put it on their powers, unless it was mandatory (which would be a campaign rule).

[Markdoc]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

I'd agree with the others: this is a campaign rule. That doesn't mean I think it's a bad idea - just that it's not something I'd enforce with limitations on specific spells of the kind you suggest. In my current game, all human spellcasters* must take requires a skill roll, costs Long Term Endurance, Concentration, 1/2 DCV and Extra time full phase as limitations on their spells - no exceptions. Because of the full phase limitation no spells may be used in multiple power attacks and they can only be cast one at a time.

 

But that's a game design decision meaning that spellcasters who want to cast must use up LTE and be at 1/2 or 0 DCV for at least a full phase, for each spell. Those limits were put in place to specifically gimp mages who want long term protection spells and warrior mages, so that strong guys with swords would have a useful role to play.

 

I'd take the same route with what you want - but I wouldn't use "must buy X points first" because it's a non-limiting limitation in play. Think of some limitations that would enforce wht you want, or simply make a GM ruling "You have to buy spells up this tree". You could also apply the same rationale to (for example) fighting "feats" or martial arts.

 

Cheers, Mark

 

*and all player characters are human. I make the distinction because some non-humans can cast spells without these limitations - in these cases the spells are natural powers for them and they have their own problems to compensate, like the fay suffering injury from iron and burning up in sunlight.

[shnar]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

It was actually Martial Arts that I was thinking about originally, similar to Rolemaster's Mark system (they have 4 different marks of martial arts and to learn Mark 2, you have to have equal or greater skill in Mark 1, etc. And the attack charts max out at the different marks, so Mark 1 maxes on a roll of 90 or something, Mark 2 on 100, Mark 3 on 110, etc).

 

So campaign rule it is.

 

-shnar

[dragntyr]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

Well there is a Third option that no one has offered up.. I will be the one to do so. It is actually off of KillerShrikes Website using the Vancian Magic System. It will allow you to set spell levels and from there you can set spell progression (you need to have so many of Level X, before taking the next level and so on) as a world mechanic and not as a limitation.

 

The following Excerpt is from KillerShrikes website.

Start Quote

"SPELL LEVEL TO ACTIVE POINTS

All of the Vancian Magic Systems described on this site share the concept of Spells that are ranked by Spell Level; some GMs may prefer to refer to this concept in variant ways, such as Spell Circles, Spell Houses, or Spell Ranks to avoid confusion stemming from the overloaded use of the word "Level", or simply to add more flavor.

Each Spell Level starting at Spell Level 0 has 15 Active Points more than the Spell Level before it.

Spell Level -> Active Point Range

0 -> 1 - 15

1 -> 16 - 30

2 -> 31 - 45

3 -> 46 - 60

4 -> 61 - 75

5 -> 76 - 90

6 -> 91 - 105

7 -> 106 - 120

8 -> 121 - 135

9 -> 136 - 150

 

Thus a Level 0 Spell is between 1-15 AP, 1st Level Spells are between 16-30 AP, 2nd Level Spells are between 31-45 AP and so on as indicated in the table below."

End Quote"

 

Now if you had the inclination to expand on this then you can. In my games spell casters need to have teachers for the spells that they wish to learn. So if your wizard want to learn Fireball he first needs to find the mentor that will teach him. If he be longs to a school or society of wizards then it should be easy but that mentor may require him to learn the other stuff first, if you are a sorcerer then you need to see another sorcerer cast the spell first in order to see how it is cast and to learn it, Druids and Cleric will not be granted access to cast those spells until they know the basics ie. Fire control, but this is all GM restrictions not any for of limitations (simply because it is just as limiting for all spell casters).

 

Linkage to KillerShrikes Site

[torchwolf]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

Even though basing spell-casting ability progression on Active Points when it comes to combat-effective magic, some weird results come up, especially with utility abilities such as Life Support.

 

Immortality (3 Active Pts of LS) should maybe not be one of the first spells learned.*

 

There's no way around GM adjudication of acceptable spell builds, but making a list of those Powers that should require a higher level of magical proficiency in a specific campaign is an easy enough step to give players an idea of how things are supposed to work as well as indicating what kinds of spells would be considered very powerful and/or rare within the setting.

 

*Fantasy Hero for 4th Edition (which used the Limitation -1/4 per 10 required real point purchase) placed the Light of Lifegiving Spell [LS: Immortality] as requiring 40 pts of spells in the College of Light Magic before it could be purchased - easy enough, but only once you had the necessary expertise.

 

Almost all FH 4th Edition (actually 2nd edition of FH, but for 4th Edition Hero System) schools of magic were redundant, meaning it would tend to make magicians specialize a bit since the choiciest abilities were put at "Requires 40 Real Points Of Spells From School Of X". Not entirely such a bargain as it would seem, since it effectively allowed almost all casters to be reasonable effective while keeping some abilities restricted to certain schools. The styles of spells are pretty utilitarian though, and the 5th Edition Grimoires and sample spells for published settings have far better flavor specific to their magic schools.

[spaceprincessecho]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

There's already a system like this in place for Martial Arts - in 6E1 it discusses that if you buy any Martial Arts you have to get at least 10 points worth. Additionally, HSMA talks about optional systems for ranking martial manoeuvres - essentially, the idea is that you have to buy a certain number of points of "low tier" manoeuvres before you can get higher tier ones. It's discussed as a campaign ground rule - something we, as GMs, can just enforce. That sort of thing is okay in HERO.

[Markdoc]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

There's already a system like this in place for Martial Arts - in 6E1 it discusses that if you buy any Martial Arts you have to get at least 10 points worth. Additionally' date=' HSMA talks about optional systems for ranking martial manoeuvres - essentially, the idea is that you have to buy a certain number of points of "low tier" manoeuvres before you can get higher tier ones. It's discussed as a campaign ground rule - something we, as GMs, can just enforce. That sort of thing is okay in HERO.[/quote']

 

You are basically right, although the martial arts rules are a bit of a special case: there's no suggestion you have to start with low-tier powers - in fact it specifically states that you could just buy two of the most powerful maneuvers and call it good. The reason for that, is that martial maneuvers are a sort of pseudo framework: to keep the price of a decent number of maneuvers in a reasonable range, they get a substantial price break (Most maneuvers cost between 10 and 25 points to build as powers, but cost 3-5 points as maneuvers). The 10 point minimum is to reduce abuse.

 

Nonetheless, as a campaign ground rule, for example, the suggested ranking system - it'd work fine.

 

cheers, Mark

[spaceprincessecho]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

You are basically right' date=' although the martial arts rules are a bit of a special case: there's no suggestion you have to start with low-tier powers - in fact it specifically states that you could just buy two of the most powerful maneuvers and call it good.[/quote']

 

It's an optional system mentioned in HSMA, for campaigns that desire more realism in martial arts acquisition.

[Palmate]

Re: Requires another power limitation?

 

I would simply put a 0 point limit must have X spell. that X would be the spell previous in the progression.

So…

Spell X has no requirement

Spell Y requires X

Spell Z requires Y.

Pretty straight forward, also limits don't need to be known. in many games the requirement - as stated above - is X point of spells from Y school. that too is valid, but if you want the character to have to know flame finger, fire Jet, fire Bolt, and fire ball in that order then this is a way to do it.

P