Dr. Terror's not so terrifying PRE

[Ockham's Spoon]

In 6e1 on pg 176, there is an example power, Dr. Terror’s Fear Aura, purchased as

Change Environment: -4 to PRE to resist Dr. Terror’s fear-based PRE attacks, AoE 16m R, 0 END for 45 Active points. Not to be a power-gamer here or anything, but the more obvious way to do this would have been to sink those 45 points into Dr. Terror’s PRE. This would not only be way more effective than CE (add 9d6 to the PRE attack instead of merely dropping the defenders PRE by 4), but he would get the defensive bonus from PRE as well. I don’t think the price for CE is necessarily unfair, but I think PRE could have used a bit of tweaking in 6e.

 

As a GM, I really dislike high PRE because I have seen it throw too many combats. It has come to the forefront though, as I am about to start a campaign where all the heroes have supernatural or monstrous backgrounds (think X-Men meet Buffy the Vampire Slayer), and sure enough one of the players is looking at a supernatural fear power, which would most obviously be a high PRE. I would like to establish some ground rules before we get started though, and I am hoping for some thoughts and/or feedback on handling this. Here are some of ideas I had on how to limit the power of PRE (none of which I am wild about, but all of which I think are workable):

 

1. Just put a cap on it. Nobody has PRE over, say 40. There are no other caps in this game, although I have suggested what a reasonable power levels would be (around 50 active). But if someone puts 50 points into PRE, you can easily get a PRE+30 effect on a large number of people who would not reasonably have a high PRE (soldiers and other agent types - these guys aren't game-changers but should pose a credible threat that a high PRE attack would effectively neutralize).

 

2. Make extensive use of PRE Defense (PRE purchased with the limitation “only for defense”). While effective, this strikes me as a band-aid fix.

 

3. Make PRE subject to CHA Maxima, so any PRE over 20 costs double (including from Aid). No other CHA is subject in this campaign, but it would keep things in check.

 

4. Establish a new house rule. Normally the target of a PRE attack can use the higher of PRE or EGO to defend. The house rule states if the target makes an EGO roll he can add his EGO to his PRE for defensive purposes. I can see where this would have the desired effect, but that could be a lot of EGO rolls to make with each PRE attack unless I just apply a statistical rule and say 50% make it and 50% don’t or something.

 

5. Change the PRE scale. Make the increments for PRE attack larger; say +15, +30, and +45. This is pretty nonstandard, but it allows for low level effects while making the combat-ending upper range effects harder to achieve.

 

Any comments on the above or other ideas for ways to keep PRE in check?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Dr. Terror's not so terrifying PRE

 

I've never observed a high PC presence to be an issue. There are typically multiple negative modifiers to the number of dice, and it only hoses someone for a phase as far as I know (after which, there's a recovery). The only time I ever got irritated with a high PRE was as a player, where the GM had a villain throw her 90 point Magic pool into +90 Presence, then houseruled that the Presence Attack table continued on, with every 10 over being another phase of frozen in terror without actions. Nobody got an action until something like Segment 8 of the second turn ... oh, and did I mention that this villainess was teamed with Dark Seraph and his 18d6 Explosions? Yeah, that kinda sucked.

 

Anyway, I personally would just put a cap on it (of course, I cap every attack power). I'd also mention that putting 50 points into Presence is sixty active (base 10 + 50), just as a side note.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Dr. Terror's not so terrifying PRE

 

An alternate way to build fear-based Powers is to use the Emotion Control (Only To Control/Inflict Fear, -1) option for Mind Control.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Dr. Terror's not so terrifying PRE

 

I've never observed a high PC presence to be an issue. There are typically multiple negative modifiers to the number of dice, and it only hoses someone for a phase as far as I know (after which, there's a recovery). The only time I ever got irritated with a high PRE was as a player, where the GM had a villain throw her 90 point Magic pool into +90 Presence, then houseruled that the Presence Attack table continued on, with every 10 over being another phase of frozen in terror without actions. Nobody got an action until something like Segment 8 of the second turn ... oh, and did I mention that this villainess was teamed with Dark Seraph and his 18d6 Explosions? Yeah, that kinda sucked.

 

Anyway, I personally would just put a cap on it (of course, I cap every attack power). I'd also mention that putting 50 points into Presence is sixty active (base 10 + 50), just as a side note.

 

You're right about the base PRE adding, but even a 10d6 base PRE attack can be dangerous. IME the negative modifiers can be offset with appropriate actions and soliloquies (and without negative mods that 10d6 attack can hit 14d6 without too much trouble). The problem is not necessarily the loss of a PHA or DCV (although that is significant) but the compulsion to do what the attacker says. At PRE+30 everyone surrenders pretty much, but even at PRE+10 "he will consider deeply what attacker says" and the effects last for around 1 minute. I can reasonably say most people engaged in combat aren't going to chicken out at the +10 level unless things are going badly for them, but past that you would expect some people to run at least. So while PRE+20 might not automatically end combat like PRE+30, if the opposition loses half their number the battle becomes pretty trivial.

 

The "secondary" effects of the PRE attack are somewhat subjective, so I could just tone them down, but in many ways they are the whole point of the PRE attack mechanic.

 

 

 

The Mind Control route is reasonable, but Mind Control costs END and isn't AoE by default like PRE and so it begs the same question as Dr. Terror's Fear Aura: why not just buy PRE which is more effective for the same points?

[Ice9]

Re: Dr. Terror's not so terrifying PRE

 

5. Change the PRE scale. Make the increments for PRE attack larger; say +15, +30, and +45. This is pretty nonstandard, but it allows for low level effects while making the combat-ending upper range effects harder to achieve.

I would go with this one, and actually add more intermediate levels - so +10, +20, +30, +40, +50 maybe. Just making PRE attacks harder in general kind of sucks for anyone with high-PRE - they paid to be impressive, and now a lot of foes just shrug off their intimidation with no effect. But with more intermediate levels, it doesn't go so easily to "insta-victory".

 

Also, I'd add an option to "focus" your Presence on a single person, granting a +10 or even +20 on the result. Allows you to scare the crap out of a single foe without winning the entire battle.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Dr. Terror's not so terrifying PRE

 

The "secondary" effects of the PRE attack are somewhat subjective, so I could just tone them down, but in many ways they are the whole point of the PRE attack mechanic.

 

The Mind Control route is reasonable, but Mind Control costs END and isn't AoE by default like PRE and so it begs the same question as Dr. Terror's Fear Aura: why not just buy PRE which is more effective for the same points?

 

Important note, I don't know how this stuff works in 6e, I only speak 5e.

 

One advantage of the Mind Control aspect is that it works well on people with low EGO but high PRE.

 

Another option is to raise the price of Presence to whatever level you feel is appropriate for what it does. Not sure how high this would be.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Dr. Terror's not so terrifying PRE

 

Change Environment usually affects Characteristic ROLLS, not the Characteristic itself. -4 to Pre ROLLS would be the equivalent of -20 Presence. Reduction in a Characteristic Roll normally shouldn't equate to reducing the actually Characteristic, but in the case of Presence Attacks which conceivably could be handled by a Characteristic Roll but for some reason aren't....

[Tasha]

Re: Dr. Terror's not so terrifying PRE

 

Also be aware presence attacks lose effectiveness the more often they are used against the same target in the same combat. Also Pre attacks against people who think they have the upper hand are also at a reduced value and also combat also causes a lost die.

 

As for Pre defense, I would say that troops that were trained to deal with "scary" supernaturals would have some presence defense. They would probably have more than a basic Presence value (ie 15 or more depending on how long they have been in the business so to speak).

 

Perhaps you could also require "fear" effects based on Pre to be negated by their target making an Ego roll at -2 or -3 (ie Horrible Visage +4d6 pre, only if target misses their Ego roll minus 2).

 

Some fear effects could be done with Mind Control (ie Fear aura Mind Control 4d6 AOE 16m AOE Radius constant ) would cause fear in people of up to ego 14. The idea is to edge people into fearing the person with the aura. This would be enchanced if they took up to a couple of levels of Striking Appearance (Frightning Visage).

 

Take a look at the Presence chart and see both the bonuses and negatives for conditions. Pre Attacks are great starters for making mooks pause (losing a half phase or more), and as a closer to get those last hangers on to give up or flee.

[Naanomi]

Re: Dr. Terror's not so terrifying PRE

 

Change Environment usually affects Characteristic ROLLS' date=' not the Characteristic itself. -4 to Pre ROLLS would be the equivalent of -20 Presence. Reduction in a Characteristic Roll normally shouldn't equate to reducing the actually Characteristic, but in the case of Presence Attacks which conceivably could be handled by a Characteristic Roll but for some reason aren't....[/quote']

 

Entering an area with a CE that requires a skill roll immediately prompts one as well, and failing a PRE skill check means running uncontrollably... so Dr. T's aura is actually pretty darn effective, albeit not the only way to simulate the effect.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Dr. Terror's not so terrifying PRE

 

Entering an area with a CE that requires a skill roll immediately prompts one as well' date=' and failing a PRE skill check means running uncontrollably... so Dr. T's aura is actually pretty darn effective, albeit not the only way to simulate the effect.[/quote']

Yeah, true. Good point.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Dr. Terror's not so terrifying PRE

 

I would go with this one, and actually add more intermediate levels - so +10, +20, +30, +40, +50 maybe. Just making PRE attacks harder in general kind of sucks for anyone with high-PRE - they paid to be impressive, and now a lot of foes just shrug off their intimidation with no effect. But with more intermediate levels, it doesn't go so easily to "insta-victory".

 

Also, I'd add an option to "focus" your Presence on a single person, granting a +10 or even +20 on the result. Allows you to scare the crap out of a single foe without winning the entire battle.

 

I really like that idea, giving a bonus when singling a target out. Partly because it makes good gaming sense to me, but partly because it encourages the player to pick a target instead of hosing the whole group; PRE is kind of a blunt instrument that way. I can't rep you again yet though.

 

The extra intermediate levels, although also nonstandard, could be a nice way to add a bit more granularity although the subjective part of the attack will require some work with more levels to deal with.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Dr. Terror's not so terrifying PRE

 

Entering an area with a CE that requires a skill roll immediately prompts one as well' date=' and failing a PRE skill check means running uncontrollably... so Dr. T's aura is actually pretty darn effective, albeit not the only way to simulate the effect.[/quote']

 

Wow, I totally missed that. Thanks for pointing it out. That makes the CE build is a pretty brutal fear power, although not quite as absolute as PRE+30.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Dr. Terror's not so terrifying PRE

 

Also be aware presence attacks lose effectiveness the more often they are used against the same target in the same combat. Also Pre attacks against people who think they have the upper hand are also at a reduced value and also combat also causes a lost die.

 

As for Pre defense, I would say that troops that were trained to deal with "scary" supernaturals would have some presence defense. They would probably have more than a basic Presence value (ie 15 or more depending on how long they have been in the business so to speak).

 

 

Take a look at the Presence chart and see both the bonuses and negatives for conditions. Pre Attacks are great starters for making mooks pause (losing a half phase or more), and as a closer to get those last hangers on to give up or flee.

 

You're right; trained soldiers would almost certainly be more resistant than your average mook, esp. if they are trained for battling supernatural threats. That could certainly be a mitigating factor.

 

I particularly want to highlight your second point though, because I think this is the reason PRE was introduced to the game in the first place, and this is exactly the function it should have. Conceptually I am okay with the idea of Lovecraftian horrors that can make grown men pass out in terror, but in practice I find that it skews gameplay, possibly because the PRE scale is fairly narrow as written. Which is the whole reason for this post of course. Anyway, thanks for your input.