Mental CSL's and base cost weirdness (6e)

[hammersickle59]

To buy a OMCV is 3 points. Same for DMCV.

 

To buy a MCSL that applies to all mental powers (just like the base!) costs 6pts.

 

So, for 6 pts i can have +1 OMCV and +1 DMCV always on! Or i can have just 1 MCSL that has to be assigned. The only advantage to the MCSL is that you can spend 2 of them to increase the damage class by 1. A rather small effect (and not cost effective), compared to having both offense and defense always on for same cost.

 

42 points could give you +7 OMCV and +7 DMCV OR you could just have 7 MCSL's that have to be assigned. Why would a mentalist ever choose the latter!

 

Dean

[Dreamstreamer]

Re: Mental CSL's and base cost weirdness (6e)

 

I believe that the answer is flexibility. I don't think that the MCSLs are supposed to replace OMCV or DMCV, but they can augment them. Also, there is one thing that MCSLs can do that OMCV and DMCV cannot: augment DCs. Those 7 MCSLs could be used to augment OMCV, DMCV or the mental power's DC (which, depending on the number of advantages that the power has, could be quite efficient.)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental CSL's and base cost weirdness (6e)

 

Let's assume I really want to augment DC's. Most Mentalists have their attacks in a Multipower already, so why don't I:

 

- Bump the base of the MP up by, say, 30.

- add two flexible slots, +10 MOCV and +10 MDCV - cost of 6 points each, so 12

- add a flexible component to each attack slot to add +5 DC (which, I note, costs 25 points - I could go to +6 DC) With 8 attack slot choices, this costs another 40 points.

 

Total cost - 82 points. Equivalent to 10 Mental Combat Skill Levels for 60 points. Drop down to 4 attack slots and the cost falls to 62, so the breakpoint is at more than 3 attack powers.

 

Mind you, those extra DC's from my levels also cost 0 END. My extra DC's above cost END.

 

I wonder if the problem lies in the ratios - buying CV is a lot cheaper than buying 0 END damage classes.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Mental CSL's and base cost weirdness (6e)

 

At 3 or less attack powers, you can buy 3-point MCSLs, though, so there isn't really a breakpoint.

[GAZZA]

Re: Mental CSL's and base cost weirdness (6e)

 

Fireg0lem is correct. With (say) Mental Blast, Mental Illusions, and Telepathy, you could go:

 

Multipower, 90pt reserve [90]

Mental Blast 6d6 [6-f]

Mental Illusions 12d6[6-f]

Mind Control 12d6 [6-f]

+2.5d6 Mental Blast [5-v]

+5d6 Mental Illusions [5-v]

+5d6 Mind Control [5-v]

+10 OMCV [6-v]

+10 ODCV [6-v]

 

That's 135 points. The basic attack multipower (sans 30 points of reserve and all bar the first three slots) costs 78, so that's 58 points this flexibility costs. Alternately, as per Fireg0lem's suggestion, you buy 10 3 point CSLs for 30 points. Hugh has shown it works for 4+ powers; this shows that it works for 3. In fact, it works even for 1:

 

Mental Blast 6d6 [60]

Multipower: "Mental Combat Levels" [30]

+2.5d6 Mental Blast [5-v]

+10 OMCV [6-v]

+10 DMCV [6-v]

 

That still comes in at 17 points "too much". So if you want to have this flexibility, CSLs are definitely the cheap way to get it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Mental CSL's and base cost weirdness (6e)

 

+2.5d6 Mental Blast [5-v]

+5d6 Mental Illusions [5-v]

+5d6 Mind Control [5-v]

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here, but these slots are worthless unless the character has Mental Powers outside the Framework. One slot cannot add to another in the same Multipower.

[GAZZA]

Re: Mental CSL's and base cost weirdness (6e)

 

Just illustrating Hugh's idea that the CSLs are a cheaper alternative to buying it as a Multipower.

 

That said, you're right of course, but I'm not sure if you can have a slot that is "partially fixed", which is what I'm trying to illustrate. Assume you have a 17d6 Mind Control in the MP. 60 active points are a fixed slot, the upper 25 are a variable slot. I don't believe this is a standard build, but it's not really unbalanced in any way. Offhand I can't think of anywhere it's really needed though.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Mental CSL's and base cost weirdness (6e)

 

The system values flexibility more than a given individual might. Go with what makes sense for your character.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental CSL's and base cost weirdness (6e)

 

At 3 or less attack powers' date=' you can buy 3-point MCSLs, though, so there isn't really a breakpoint.[/quote']

 

10 MOCV, 10 MDCV and a 6d6 Mental blast costs 120 points.

 

You could, alternatively, buy a 6d6 Mental Blast and 20x3 point MCSLs for the same price. That means that you could have up to 20 MOCV or MDC. You could balance them 10/10, giving you a 62.5% chance to hit or be hit against the above opponent, OR you could have (say) 8 MOCV and 12 MDCV, giving you a 37.5% chance to hit or be hit. That doesn't really help - it is still a toss of the coin who wins. If you actually start to divert levels to damage (bearing in mind you need 4 levels for +1d6 damage), the only sensible approach is to abandon all defence, throwing everything into extra damage and OCV, assuming you will always be hit but also always hit: you could use 14 levels on MOCV and add 1 1/2 dice of damage by adding the other 6 levels to damage. Put NOTHING into defence. You'll be hit unless the opponent rolls 18, but then you'll be hitting unless you roll 16-18, which gives you over 95% chance to hit - close enough to even odds. This works because what you are doing, in effect, is making the points that your opponent spent on OCV pointless, whilst taking advantage of the 3d6 probability curve - getting close to the end of the curve is enough - you don't need to go all the way, which you have effectively forced your opponent to do.

 

Also the ability to move your skill levels about might give you an advantage if the timing is right, but, really, all out attack is the only sensible way to do it.

 

In a one on one battle you should always win, as you will both hit every time but you will be doing more damage.

 

Against two opponents of significant lesser ability (say 8 MOCV and MDCV and 5d6 Mental Blasts) it makes sense to increase your MDCV to 12 and they will hit you once a phase about 45% of the time as opposed to your 62.5%, and the chance of them both hitting in a single phase is very low (less than 3%) - so you should win the war of attrition. The 'fixed' 10OCV/10DCV character has an 83% chance to hit and a 37.5% chance to be hit by each (about a 60% chance to hit at least once and a significant (about 15%) chance of being hit by both in a single phase. The outcopme is a lot less certain.

 

Assuming I have my numbers right, there are pretty massive advantages to the flexibility of levels over fixed characteristics.

 

However. also bear in mind that the characteristics are 'always on' whereas skill levels are (and cannnot be made) persistent, so if you rely on MCSLs you will be easy to attack if you are not expecting it.

 

Unless you have more than 3 mental powers (possible buy relatively rare as there are only 5 standard 'offensive' mental powers), it would probably make sense not to buy MOCV, but instead buy 3 point (or even a combination of 3 point and 1 point) MCSLs, but to buy up at least some of your MDCV so that your defences, at least, are 'always on'.

 

One other point to ponder - all of this talk supposes that the GM is going to be OK with you upping your MOCV to 15 and your Mental Blast to 4 1/2 dice. In campaigns where CV and damage caps are enforced, and you can afford to buy your abilities at or near them, the advantage diminishes or vanishes entirely.

 

Well - not entirely - another point in favour of levels strikes me: when facing an opponent with adjustment powers, they can drain or otherwise diminish your characteristics and powers, but not as far as I know, your skills (unless they are skills bought as a power). Even if I'm wrong on that, I imagine more opponents are built with the power to adjust powers and characteristics than skills. Also because you are going to have SOME MOCV and MDCV, you can still benefit from positive adjustment.

 

In summary, I'm not sure that skill levels are really there for flexibility as opposed to raw power - they seem to be a much better investment in these common circumstances than 'straight' characteristics. Skills in 5e were often overshadowed by 'straight' characteristics, but the pendulum may have swung the other way in 6e.

 

When I started writing this post, I did not think I was going to come to that conclusion. Shows how wrong you can be...assuming, always, that my maths is right

[GAZZA]

Re: Mental CSL's and base cost weirdness (6e)

 

Assuming you are correct there Sean, it has even more implied consequences for "real" OCV. A brick would appear to be better off ditching or even selling back OCV and buying 3 point levels in Punch, Grab, and Haymaker. Even a martial artist is possibly better off with 5 point levels than "straight" OCV, for much the reasons you come up with.

 

Interesting points.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental CSL's and base cost weirdness (6e)

 

Hard numbers:

 

In the above scenarios, where Level Man is fighting Characteristic Girl, and Level Man puts 14 levels into MOCV, none into MDCV and 6 into damage, he's doing 25 damage a phase on average as opposed to Characteristic Girl's 21.

 

Where they both fight Weaker Types (not THAT much weaker - just goes to show), against CG, the WTs average 13 damage per round, and CG averages 18. Against LM, the WTs average 6 damage per phase, against LM's 13 per phase - a significant advantage in both absolute terms and proportional terms for the level based approach.

 

The problem here is that lower cost levels are a bargain, but higher cost levels aren't - there is really no point in prefering 6 point MCSLs over characteristics: for the price of 10 MOCV and 10MDCV (60 points), you get 10x6 point MCSLs. I'm not even going to work it out - no comparison - characteristics win hands down except in certain (very rare) situations where all that matters is more damage and not hitting or being hit. Escaping a mental entangle, perhaps, and even then the MDCV 'penalty' could prove devastating.

 

That means that we are in the unfortunate position, from a character development PoV that there is a massive disadvantage to increasing the flexibility of your levels or buying more than 3 mental powers. It seems to me that 'all mental power' CSLs are costed badly - they should be 4 points. That would get you 15 levels for 60 points and you should still win against a single opponent running 10/10, using the same strategy (your damage advantage falls to about 1.5 stun per phase - very close and subject to the vagaries of fate) - and you would lose badly against two weaker opponents. There will always, with a point based system, be a trade off of power and flexibility, but it seems to me that the trade off for higher cost levels is too great, and the lower cost levels not enough. This really is unfortunate because it penalises the character who spends points on more mental powers, especially as there is potentially substantial overlap between some mental powers anyway - you can often use Mental Illusions as a form of Mind Control and Mind Control as a form of Telepathy.

 

3 point MCSLs are arguably too effective and 6 point MCSLs are arguably not effective enough. They both miss the balance point. Or am I missing something?

[GAZZA]

Re: Mental CSL's and base cost weirdness (6e)

 

Your analysis is certainly difficult to refute. Compare it to "normal" powers. You can get +1 to all HTH or all Ranged for 8 points - I submit this is roughly the equivalent of "all mental powers" as far as utility is concerned. This is less than the cost to buy +1 OCV and +1 DCV, so it doesn't seem right that the cost for all mental powers is not also cheaper than +1 OMCV and DMCV.

 

Perhaps it would be best to ditch the 3 point levels entirely and only have the 4 point levels; that would seem the most balanced compromise.

[GAZZA]

Re: Mental CSL's and base cost weirdness (6e)

 

Hmm, side question: what happens with ACV attacks? For example: a PC in my campaign has an 12d6 Blast "fireball" with ACV "OMCV vs DCV". Can that benefit from mental CSLs, normal CSLs, neither, or both?

 

The text for Mental CSLs implies that any attack that uses OMCV uses Mental CSLs. But that's a bit weird, as it would imply he can assign the level to increase his DMCV even though that's not what the power targets; it would of course be even weirder to have a mental CSL able to boost the "normal" DCV of the user. Stranger still, the same text says that Mental Powers get to use Mental CSLs - apparently even if they are ACVed such that they now work on OCV vs DCV.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Mental CSL's and base cost weirdness (6e)

 

But with Mental CSLs you can bounce your mental attacks!

 

(In all seriousness I'd like to see more uses like bouncing attacks to make CSLs more effective. Mental CSLs can increase the damage/effect of mental powers, so I suppose if you want to get a bit of a rebate you can limit away that ability and pay a little less than 6 points....)

 

EDIT: Actually, on pondering it for a moment I think I'd like to revisit that idea of bouncing mental attacks with a little more seriousness. What if you could bounce Mental Powers off of minds to establish LOS where you otherwise might not have it? Hmm.....

[GAZZA]

Re: Mental CSL's and base cost weirdness (6e)

 

I think I could probably count on no hands the number of times I've ever seen anyone Bounce anything in my games, but I admit that's more my lack of imagination than anything else.