Mental Powers vs. Machine Minds

[JeffreyWKramer]

I'm particularly looking for discussion with HERO system GMs, but all informed opinions are welcome.

 

Steve says we're going to have to wait until ULTIMATE MENTALIST to get a real rundown of what one can accomplish using mental powers vs. machine minds. Meanwhile, what effects do you let such powers have in campaigns you run? I'm particularly interested in opinions about Mind Control vs. machines. Other than the obvious (Mind Control vs. robot characters, computers and AIs), what do you let it accomplish? Can such a character bypass/shut down electronic security systems? How about activating/shutting automatic doors? Turn the microwave on and off? Change TV channels w/o a remote? Take control of or shut down hi-tech foci?

 

Inquiring minds, y'know?

[zornwil]

Hasn't come up much. The only robots I've had as PCs have had a sentient brain of sorts (elecronic impulses that generate brain waves or they actually have a human brain) that mentalists can see, depending on SFX. As my mentalist PC and mostly the mentalist NPCs don't have in-depth understandings of electronics, they see a mind and they interact with it normally, not touching the underlying computer/electronic bits.

 

As far as actual automata, just haven't messed with in the contexts of mentalists, believe it or not. However, from what I've seen, if the thing has no brain, the mentalist shouldn't use Mind Control per se (not that they couldn't use the power, the SFX are just different). Rather, someone would need a combination of abilities where they could hack in via wireless (however that's done) and understand the thing, utilizing skills.

 

But you could have techno-mentalists who do that with brains and therefore can do the same with "simple" computers. Basically, these characters manipulate electrical patterns (as opposed to seeing them wholly as "thoughts" or "images") at such a discreet level that they control anything they can understand. To understand human brains, they have to have an amazing neurosciences skill level and their powers are probably RSR with that. For computers, they have to do the same with "computer" skill (of course you could break that down as desired).

[Lupus]

Personally, I can't see why automatons aren't vulnerable to mind control, against 'machine' class of minds. If you can mind control a toaster, you can mind control a robot. Just don't see why making something self-mobile means you can no longer affect it. *shrugs*

 

And if the 'machine' class of mind doesn't count toasters... what on earth DOES it affect? Standard rules, AIs are vulnerable as the 'human' class of minds.

 

That said, I also count AIs as the machine class of mind, and not vulnerable to ordinary mental powers, regardless of their intelligence. Different brain waves and all that. Same reason why aliens and humans are two separate classes.

[McCoy]

Personally I consider mind control vs (non AI) machines to be a Special Effect for a limited telekinesis/clairvoyance combination. You can do anything from a distance that you could do if you were standing at the controls.

 

AI, same as against any other character, ECV vs ECV.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Lupus

Personally, I can't see why automatons aren't vulnerable to mind control, against 'machine' class of minds. If you can mind control a toaster, you can mind control a robot. Just don't see why making something self-mobile means you can no longer affect it. *shrugs*

 

And if the 'machine' class of mind doesn't count toasters... what on earth DOES it affect? Standard rules, AIs are vulnerable as the 'human' class of minds.

 

That said, I also count AIs as the machine class of mind, and not vulnerable to ordinary mental powers, regardless of their intelligence. Different brain waves and all that. Same reason why aliens and humans are two separate classes.

 

I meant all non-brain/sentient machinery, sorry, I didn't mean to divorce automata from that.

 

The other portions of my text, where I refer to those who manipulate via electronic signals (feel free to substitute other pseudo-science here), applies to the machine class of minds.

 

I didn't/don't care for the way 5th breaks this out, so I didn't even think about it when responding. I don't mean that as any sort of indictment of 5th, and I doubt I'd change it if I even somehow had the opportunity (well, I'd elaborate on it with a larger discussion of the underlying SFX/mechanics of mental powers, and how those SFX should apply to different classes of minds).

[Lupus]

Originally posted by zornwil

I meant all non-brain/sentient machinery, sorry, I didn't mean to divorce automata from that.

 

The other portions of my text, where I refer to those who manipulate via electronic signals (feel free to substitute other pseudo-science here), applies to the machine class of minds.

 

I didn't/don't care for the way 5th breaks this out, so I didn't even think about it when responding. I don't mean that as any sort of indictment of 5th, and I doubt I'd change it if I even somehow had the opportunity (well, I'd elaborate on it with a larger discussion of the underlying SFX/mechanics of mental powers, and how those SFX should apply to different classes of minds).

Oh, yah, I wasn't saying that to you. Was more about Steve's ruling on the HERO System Rules Questions board. That if an automaton is vulnerable to mental powers of any sort (including machine class), it should take a physical limitation to reflect that. I just don't get the 'why' of it.

[TheEmerged]

Personally, my rule of thumb is that the machine has to have a "mind" of some kind in order to be controlled -- and that it can only be made to do something the "mind" could make it do.

 

That means a vaccuum cleaner probably can't be controlled. A programmable coffee pot on the other hand can be controlled -- but things it could be programmed to do normally. It couldn't for example be programmed to spew or spill the coffee in its pot unless it has a way to move the pot.

 

Similarly, my car could be mind-controlled in this way -- but it wouldn't be able to press the accellerator or brake, or move the steering wheel. It could probably activate or deactive the cruise control, and its performance could be affected (via the "brain box").

[Lord Liaden]

The first edition of The Ultimate Mentalist specified that Mental Powers affecting the Machine class of minds could affect computers that only have Intelligence but no Ego, by substituting Intelligence as the basis for ECV and the figure that the attacking mentalist would have to exceed to gain effect. Since so much of modern technology is run by computer (especially in secure installations such as government or hero/villain bases), this is actually a powerful effect. While a machine Mind Control might not be able to shut off surveillance and alarm systems, open doors or turn building power on and off, gaining control over the mainframe that can do those things is very nearly as good. Not to mention compelling an encrypted computer to regurgitate its data through direct mental coercion.

 

I recall a scene of this sort from a short lived sci-fi television series from a few years back - I think it was called The Visitor starring John Corbett. The central character was a human kidnapped by aliens in the 1940's who returned to try to prevent mankind's self-destruction, having been given some exceptional abilities by the aliens. In one scene he's frustrated by his unfamiliarity with a contemporary computer; he presses the monitor to his forehead for a few seconds, and the screen lights up with the info he wants.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

Personally, my rule of thumb is that the machine has to have a "mind" of some kind in order to be controlled -- and that it can only be made to do something the "mind" could make it do.

 

That means a vaccuum cleaner probably can't be controlled. A programmable coffee pot on the other hand can be controlled -- but things it could be programmed to do normally. It couldn't for example be programmed to spew or spill the coffee in its pot unless it has a way to move the pot.

 

Similarly, my car could be mind-controlled in this way -- but it wouldn't be able to press the accellerator or brake, or move the steering wheel. It could probably activate or deactive the cruise control, and its performance could be affected (via the "brain box").

 

See, this makes a bit more sense to me than the TK thing as a way of doing "mind control vs. machines." Actually, both powers have certain advantages. With TK (+fine manipulation, only vs. machines), one *could* turn on a toaster or run the vacuum cleaner long distance, but those functions make no sense with Mind Control. On the other hand, it seems to me that machines that control something else or have some sort of programming should be "controllable." Modern cars, which have lots of programming and computers, clearly fall into that category, as would things like alarm clocks, automatic security systems, etc. - within the parameters of what the device can do. One could thus make an alarm ring, or shut off, but could not make a coffee machine walk.

 

Imagine, for example, a powered armor character has some powers like OCV levels with weapons systems, defined as computer targeting. It makes sense that a machine Mind Control could impact at least some systems of the power armor affected - the OCV levels and/or the weapon systems they're connected to. I suppose someone with Mental Illusions vs. machines could also interfere with the targeting system, making it target something that wasn't there (assuming the Mental Illusions affected whatever sense groups the targeting system was using).

[JeffreyWKramer]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

The first edition of The Ultimate Mentalist specified that Mental Powers affecting the Machine class of minds could affect computers that only have Intelligence but no Ego, by substituting Intelligence as the basis for ECV and the figure that the attacking mentalist would have to exceed to gain effect.

 

This at least has carried over from the previous edition, as the 5E rules (in the section on computers) states that with non-AI computers, one computes mental power effects using the mentalist's EGO vs. the computer's INT.

[Farkling]

I'm playing fast and loose with the effect. Luckily the character who BOUGHT the Machine class Mental Powers is the pickup GM...so we hash it out.

He bought Mind Scan, Mind Control, Mental Illusions and Telepathy...and is every bit the decker, scaled up to the superhero world. Given a choice between Clairsentience for the building security systems and Telepathy to read the information, he preferred the Telepathy. With a Programming roll, I allow him to form pictures (JPEG's) of information streams he has scanned.

 

My take is this::

Mind Scan will allow you to find a specific computer. As a "special effect", I will allow it to locate an internet access point also. "A computer with internet access"

Telepathy will let you communicate with it and read it's memories, operating system, hidden directives. You can also send images/messages back, so if the operating system will accept commands from your "remote IP address" then you can operate it.

Mental Illusions is to trick the machine. Feed it wrong information, isolate it from it's interfaces, appear to be an authorized user, show a valid network ID instead of a remote internet access. This also applies if you have isolated the machine (picture information running both directions) - illusions would also allow the Mentalist to project the appearance of a functioning computer to the user. This level should also work against "smart scanners" of ID cards, retina scanners, and palmprints. An illusion to the computer of authorized personnel.

Mind Control: To force the computer to follow instructions. It cannot, of course, do anything it has no program for, but if the program exists, Mind Control can be used to run it, or to stop it. "Shutdown" "Engage Fire Alarms" "Activate 911 Call" "Transfer Company Fund 019284 to Swiss Bank Account 4564-3421-098765" "Erase Transaction" "Erase HArd Drive" "Back up system to remote site at this number" "Activate, download, and copy this program (said Program can be sent by Telepathy or relayed by Telepathy depending on mental capacity of being)."

AI's of course will not take instructions of "erase", "detonate", or "explode" easily. Normal computers do not have self preservation unless included as a program...

 

So far::

He has used Mind Control to ORDER systems to give him administrator passwords and forget about it.

He scrambled the aeronautics system in a surplus military helicopter. It crashed. This would probably work on F-16's also. He'd need to mess up FOUR computers to crash the shuttle though.

Erased every video record on the mainframe at a Las Vegas hotel.

He convinced a Wall Street admin computer he was authorized with a sophisticated illusion.

He steadily 'hacks' into the internet with Mind Scan and Telepathy and the nearest open internet access system.

He set off the sprinklers and fire alarms in a skyscraper

He has raided everything short of top level classified computer systems for information

He habitually takes information straight from computers to his brain and interprets on the fly.

Mental Illusions to scramble the automatic sensor systems.

Mental Illusions to alter streaming video feeds.

Reprogrammed the ArchAngel Michaels EMachine to receive 70% porn from the internet.

Erased PDA's

Erased Servers.

Planted video footage in computerized security storage with correct time/date stamps

Logged into the stock tracking system on Wall street to delete the GENOCIDE finacier stocks from the records

Erased one of his companions from the public infonet (that was an extended programming action, and much END cost)

Read everybody's EMail

Hacked the Federal Computer System to get WindRider into the US Marshal training program.

Bought up 12% of the Martian planetary surface with accompaniying mineral rights from an internet based seller.

Established the Hero base as the Martian Embassy (though Mars is only inhabited by a small research team from an Australian corporation)

 

He has used Mind Scan to search for a specific mainframe in the world steadily...and frequently has found it.

(*Note* we thought a lot about that...Mind Scan appears to be a simple way to simulate cyberspace under Hero5. After all, you keep hacking through systems looking for leads to the next one... and it covers the planet or more with simple mods)

 

He does plan to buy a TK or Suppression that will let him interfere with small electronics and cybernetics. He views that as interfering at the level of the microchips themselves.

 

That's all I can think of for now. He plans to ultimately turn Wheels over as a plot device...as the powers grow he will become unchallengeable in the campaign, or dead as a threat to the world.

[prestidigitator]

Hmm. Just remember that anything that is affected by Mental Powers should also have the potential for Mental Defense. Security devices/programs/EM shielding anyone?

[SuperBlue]

Farkling: Very good stuff, and precisely how I would have done it

 

Here's my take on Mental powers and machines:

 

The Mental powers cannot affect a machine unless the following conditions are met:

 

The physical hardware is a Nervous Net (hardware that mimics biological Nuerons)

The machine has an acutal living brain inside of it

The SFX of the mental powers are set for Machines/Computers (which means the mental powers would NOT affect living things).

 

That's my rule on the whole thing.

 

Of course, the NPC character I've concocted (Mindshock) had to buy each of the mental powers twice... once for people and once for machines.

[Farkling]

Why did Minshock buy them twice?

 

There's a 10 point adder in the section discussing Mental Powers isn't there?

 

Pretidigitator::

 

Yep...GENOCIDE is::

1) Putting up Mental Defense Shields around the mainframes (which won't work as planned)

2) Designing a "mental camoflauge" generator (invisibility to mental senses...halves ECV )

3) One scientist (underfunded) is working on a harmonic feedback system that the computer can filter out (Ego Attack, Damage Shield)

Also::

1) Two existing systems on the planet have the feedback system in place already...one is in Russia, and one is buried under the polar icecap in a remnanat of alien technology.

2) The feds are working on a reverse tracker...a Mind Scan that Triggers when the system is activated.

[SuperBlue]

Originally posted by Farkling

Why did Minshock buy them twice?

 

Ah, because his powers affect both living and machines. And it's in an elemental control so he can do both at the same time :-D