HSMA: A combat test

[Barwickian]

The idea

 

A series of one-on-one encounters between 175/50 6th edition standard heroic martial artists, each following a different art.

 

The testers

 

Myself: tabletop gamer for nearly 30 years. Wide experience of systems, somewhat oldschool. Growing hero system experience. Martial arts experience: a couple of years' judo as a kid; about 8 years of wado-ryu karate in two separate stints, ending a decade ago with a green belt. Moderatley interested in MMA/UFC; got my ribs broken a few months ago sparring with my son, who trains MMA 3 times a week.

 

Mo: tabletop gamer of around 10 years' experience, mostly D&D3/3.5. Recent convert to Hero System (delighted to find a game he hasn't been able to break yet). Martial arts experience: brown belt karateka in his teens; currently trains MMA, including a couple of sessions with Royce Gracie; major UFC fan (not only does he never miss a fight, he passionately watches reruns and every Ultimate Fighter episode).

 

The set-up

 

I asked Mo to pick several martial arts from HSMA. Fighters would meet one on one on a small island, featuring a 'fighting platform' of around 40m diameter, then a 2m mini-cliff down to the beach, about 6m wide. I wanted to give someone the opportunity to drop or throw an opponent over the edge.

 

Since we're discussing starting a South China Sea Pulp Hero campaign, Mo picked seven South Asian and Southeast Asian arts. I only had time to build three of them (bandesh, bando and escrima fighters).

 

The big fight

 

The first bout was, in fact, the only bout of the evening as it took us longer than expected to finish (partly because we spent a lot of time watching developments in Egypt on Al Jazeera English).

 

We picked the fighters randomly (character sheets attached, for those interested in looking further).

 

I ended up with the escrima fighter, who had SPD4, OCV7, DCV8, no skill levels in escrima (that extra SPD is expensive), and the Weapon-based Strike autofire power from HMSA to represent escrima's flurry of blows. His major complication was 4 levels of Unluck.

 

Mo ended up with the the bandesh wrestler, SPD3, OCV7, DCV7, 4 CSLs with bandesh, Feint as his power (built as a Drain), and an old knee injury causing a vulnerability as his major fighting weakness.

 

We were please that we ended up with two radically different fighters, a wrestler and a striker, built on different concepts (speed versus skill).

 

We both spent a bit of time circling, staying out of half-move range, before I closed, allowing Mo the first attack. He stepped in an opened with a grappling disarm, putting all his skill into attack, which left one of my sticks 2m away and me on the ground.

 

I stood and struck with my remaining stick, missing. Mo grappled, locking my weaponless arm (a distinctly gamist move - he wanted to leave me some attack ability, although I did explain my character could also fight barehanded). The grapple proved impossible to break - that wrestling STR add is VERY significant at heroic level.

 

For a while the fight devolved into me trying a variety of attack moves, all failing miserably (oh, that OCV penalty for being grappled), while coming perilously close to being gassed (using up my END reserve). Then Mo started the throws.

 

We somewhat misread the MA throwing rules, and having no familiarity with bandesh, figured the fekan move was a strike/throw. So I basically took double damage from those throws for a while. However, my character had a high PD, so remained conscious and active. I managed a succesful hit which did minor damage.

 

Realising my PD was tough to overcome, Mo threw me and let go, planning to use his choke NND on the next move. He succeeded, and my STUN was becoming low. (He did object to his visualisation of this - how can I choke while I'm standing and you're on the ground - but I suggested that rather than standing, he should visualise control and picture a rear naked choke).

 

It was Phase 12. I aborted to my +5 dodge and avoided, then, having the next phase, finally managed to land a blow, causing enough damage to stun him. We mutually decided that this broke his grapple. I stood and replied with my autofire attack, which I'd tried and failed with before. This time it worked, and I rolled a 6 on the attack: three successful blows, which knocked Mo out.

 

What we cocked up

 

We didn't know enough about bandesh to figure out how it worked. Note to others: at least google a martial art before you try to play a practitioner.

 

We incorrectly combined the standard grapple/throw maneouvre with the martial throw.

 

Despite giving one of the characters a localised vulnerability, we didn't use the hit location rules. In the end, it didn't matter much as the two successful attacks I made did what was needed anyway.

 

Stuff we learned

 

In Hero martial arts, as in real life martial arts, a wrestling specialist is an absolute nightmare to fight if you have no wrestling skills yourself. They can tie you up in knots and you can do absolutely nothing about it. Hence the importance of wrestling and BJJ in UFC and similar franchises. A balanced fighter must have some martial evasion/breakout/breakfall skills.

 

Speed versus skill - the old debate. Despite the fact that my character won in the end, it was a close call and a lucky roll. I think skill probably has the edge.

 

High speed and aggressive moves mean you are likely to get gassed (use up all your END).

 

As a GM, look at characteristics carefully. My high PD made me nearly invulnerable to normal attacks. Not an issue if killing damage is involved, but this character probably had too much PD for a martial arts contest.

 

Mo's comments

 

As a practising martial artist, I paid close attention to what Mo thought about the contest.

 

He really liked the way it worked in general. He continues to be impressed with Hero System.

 

He thought there should be some better defence against grappling - not to break out, but to avoid the grapple in the first place (takedown defence, in MMA terms).

 

He wanted more detailed rules for groundwork, particulary guards and transitions. I suggested this was probably more detail than ANY tabletop game should have, and he said he agreed for a standard campaign, but if it came to a martial arts tournament, he wanted as much detail as he could get.

 

He also likes the system enough to want to build some of his favourite UFC fighters with it.

 

I think he may be planning an expansion to HSMA...

 

My thoughts

 

I figure most joint locks should be built around NND strikes, with a requirement that they follow a grapple. These things are generally there to cause pain and force a submission rather than simply immobilise.

 

Having not run a martial arts contest before, I think I can build better martial artist characters now. Lower characteristics and more skills would be better, I think.

 

Comments on the conduct of the session, the findings and the characters will be all much appreciated.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]37877[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]37878[/ATTACH]

[RexMundi]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

As someone with a bit of experience in the real world fighting here and there (boxing, wrestling, tossed in with kajukenbo, and some odd bits of stuff picked up here and there), it's nice to see this approach taken to a HSMA martial arts set up.

 

A few things I'll toss in. If you want, Take Down Defense, typically speaking let's say, The grappler goes to shoot, you double underhook him and splay while shifting forward. All that really is is a Block, or even a dodge. A lot of folks over look the sheer versatility of block/dodge. Now, you could expand upon that, with the Grappling Block maneuver, now you have blocked, and you are going back and forth between grapple control.

 

Add to that, penelty skill levels for hit locations. Then of course the disable and impair elements/usage in the rules (As specific types of maneuvers automatically hit certain locations with no penelties (though no bonuses either, so it's important to remember)), not to mention another constantly overlooked martial arts ability.

 

Sequence attacks will overcome just about anything, and both structured and unstructured sequence attacks are what often represents the back and forth goal for control before the final initiation of the attack in a hand to hand fight. It's just often forgotten. Your friend Mo should know right off the top of his head the simple value of feeling out an opponent with various jabs and feints. This is common amongst us old grapplers as well as strikers. String together enough in a sequence attack either structured or unstructered, and mayhem will follow.

 

Another point, there really wasn't any need to waste points building autofire for eskrima. Again, skill levels and things such as Rapid Attack, Off Hand Weapon, etc, would have served much better, especially when one remembers penelty skill levels are your greatest friend.

 

Otherwise. Awesome example. Now if you really want to fire one up, go for 175 pt MMA fighters to bring it home to a base of more familiarity and give it another shot.

 

~Rex

[Barwickian]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

Yeah, I'm a great believer in penalty skill levels myself. I didn't use them with these fighters as (a) they were put together on the fly, with no prior experience in hero martial arts.

 

Howver, I don't think I'd limit them to hit locations. PSLs against the OCV penalty when being grappled would be useful too.

 

Disable/impair didn't really come into this bout - the escrima fighter's PD was so high he never took any body damage; the bandesh guy got stunned and then knocked out.

 

The big issue, if we were to modify with house rules, would be the ability of a grappler to select the limbs he grapples with a succesful attack roll.

 

Feeling an opponent out would seem to fall pretty squarely into Analyse Style.

 

PSLs and Rapid Attack/Off hand is a nice aproach to escrima - I like it. I went with the powers basically to try them out and to give each fighter an appropriate signature move; the thinking here was more gamist than simulationist (dragon whips his tail!).

 

And yeah, Mo has been telling me the importance of structured attacks particularly. My combat training is many years behind me, and was largely limited to touching attacks for ippon. Full contact is a whole different ballgame (I've had two full contact bouts and collected broken ribs in both). Having seen Mo do some serious striking combo training, yes, I now recognise the value!

 

(There's a video of Mo doing his combo training, and working out with pro MMA heavyweight Marcos Oliveira here )

 

And as for MMA, yeah, I think that's where we're going next. Mo wants an in-game octagon. And he has an encyclopedic knowledge of UFC fighters' strengths and weaknesses (eg. BJ Penn, awesome BJJ and a superb jab; Brock Lesner superb grappling, no striking to speak of, and can take massive punishment). The question is how we model those abilities in Hero; that will come with experience.

 

Nice suggestions. Thanks, Rex.

[Darbor]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

I understood very little of the martial arts stuff but it was fascinating to see how you built characters for a specific and, it seems to me, non-traditional Hero System encounter.

[Kevlyn]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

I just got my copy of HSMA, and it was nice to see it in use. Not a big MA fan, but the optional rules were referred to by some of my other books so I grabbed it.

[RexMundi]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

Just as a side note, if you want to target specific limps with a grapple, you can easily just build the martial arts maneuver to be that specific (Such as Choke Hold for example). When you do that you skip over the normal location modifiers per the rules, but you can combine penelty skill levels with the standard moves and once again get the same result.

 

I found also National Geographics Fight Science to be helpful in modeling real fighting to the HERO system (Especially the MMA episode). Once you understand the comparitive scale, it's actually very easy. IE: Lesnar's sub standard striking ability would be a +0 CSL, just his raw ability, but his Grappling ability is some of the best out there, so +2 to +3, with maybe a few penelty skill levels to balance out maneuver penelties. Then you facotr in things like the Analyze skill, and now you're rolling.

 

Great training vid btw.....I sent that link to a few friends of mine. Always good to see training vid's that showcase proper takedowns and the use of resistance bands in training.

 

~Rex

[Susano]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

The most strenuous part of working on HSMA was watching all of those martial arts movies in order to mine them for power builds.

 

It was taxing! Taxing I tell you! I have no idea how I survived.

[RexMundi]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

I assume at least two of those were Meals on Wheels and Dragons Forever......hard to go wrong with jackie Chan vs Bennie the Jet heh.....

 

That being said some of the MMA crowd are starting to toss out a few flicks not to mention a serious rush at being included in one movie or another lately. Most of them can even act, or at least took a few lessons which is more then what can be said for a lot of the guys back in the day, heh.

 

~Rex

[Susano]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

I assume at least two of those were Meals on Wheels and Dragons Forever......hard to go wrong with jackie Chan vs Bennie the Jet heh.....

 

Actually no. While Meals on Wheels has one of the best fight scenes ever made, it was pure cinematic-level fighting. I watched a lot of pure wuxia films to mine for ideas for really over-the-top martial arts powers. Stuff like The Stormriders, or The Duel, or Dragon Tiger Gate, or Seven Swords, or... well... you get the idea.

[RexMundi]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

A Man Called Hero perhaps (Saw you mentioned Stormriders and The Duel)? Haven't seen Ekin Chen around in awhile, wonder what happened to the guy. last I heard he was off doing the Ultraman TV show but that was oh, 2005...... Hop he didn't fall back into the horror that is Cantopop....

 

Either way, Solid fight scenes such as Jackie and the Jet in Meals on Wheels, are great source material for building Skill heavy as opposed to power heavy. It also let's you if you so choose, stop watch the entire scene so you can see where it would fit on the HERO speed chart....also handy for developing a concept of comparitive scale.

 

And a lot of fun to watch.

 

~Rex....Wuxia rocks.....but then so does a really good Boxing movie.

[Susano]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

A Man Called Hero perhaps (Saw you mentioned Stormriders and The Duel)? Haven't seen Ekin Chen around in awhile' date=' wonder what happened to the guy. last I heard he was off doing the Ultraman TV show but that was oh, 2005...... Hop he didn't fall back into the horror that is Cantopop....[/quote']

 

I heard there was a sex scandal.

 

Either way, Solid fight scenes such as Jackie and the Jet in Meals on Wheels, are great source material for building Skill heavy as opposed to power heavy. It also let's you if you so choose, stop watch the entire scene so you can see where it would fit on the HERO speed chart....also handy for developing a concept of comparitive scale.

 

And a lot of fun to watch.

 

~Rex....Wuxia rocks.....but then so does a really good Boxing movie.

 

Sure, but I was tasked with building martial arts powers, so I needed to watch stuff with powers in it. Granted, some of the stuff you see in Jackie Chan films can be found in the Real World and Cinematic martial arts power sets, but I was looking more into Wuxia, Anime, and Video Games type stuff.

[Steve Long]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

Sounds like a fun experiment!

 

He thought there should be some better defence against grappling - not to break out, but to avoid the grapple in the first place (takedown defence, in MMA terms).

 

I'm not sufficiently familiar with MMA to have detailed knowledge of what "takedown defense" might involve, but in HERO System terms, is there some reason why Block wouldn't do the trick (and/or Dodge)? The special effect becomes "takedown defense" rather than a literal block, if the two somehow differ.

 

 

He wanted more detailed rules for groundwork, particulary guards and transitions. I suggested this was probably more detail than ANY tabletop game should have, and he said he agreed for a standard campaign, but if it came to a martial arts tournament, he wanted as much detail as he could get.

 

This generally squares with my experience that practitioners of Martial Art X always want X to have more detail, more rules, more Maneuvers, etc. I think you're correct that most games don't need such detail. However, your son also has a good point that if you were going to do an entire campaign (or major event) based around a martial arts tournament, maybe you would want more detailed rules for some things (just like some Fantasy campaigns have much more detailed rules for magic than others).

[Barwickian]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

I'm not sufficiently familiar with MMA to have detailed knowledge of what "takedown defense" might involve' date=' but in HERO System terms, is there some reason why Block wouldn't do the trick (and/or Dodge)? The special effect becomes "takedown defense" rather than a literal block, if the two somehow differ.[/quote']

 

Takedown defence is, simply, the ability to avoid a takedown. And yes, block or dodge work excellently for it.

 

However, there's a common technique - the sprawl - which if done right moves the advantage to the defender. and I think this is what Mo was talking about. As the attack crouches to grab the defender's legs the defender spreads his legs wide and slides them backwards, coming down with his upper torso on the attacker's back (a quick or cautious attacker may be able to pull out of this).

 

I'd be inclined to build it as a grapple maneouvre which must follow a block or dodge against a grapple.

 

This generally squares with my experience that practitioners of Martial Art X always want X to have more detail, more rules, more Maneuvers, etc. I think you're correct that most games don't need such detail. However, your son also has a good point that if you were going to do an entire campaign (or major event) based around a martial arts tournament, maybe you would want more detailed rules for some things (just like some Fantasy campaigns have much more detailed rules for magic than others).

 

Heh. You're quite right, but I think that for a martial arts game, HSMA *is* the extra detail. From that point on, I prefer interpreting the mechanics to suit the detail, rather than adding more mechanics.

 

And it's always possible to build extra maneouvres (such as 'sprawl') using the system if our interpretation of the off-the-peg styles differs.

 

When I've had a chance to sit down with Mo and work on some specific MMA moves, I'll post them as a style. Of course, most MMA fighters will have a couple of other styles as well (Muay Thai, BJJ, collegiate wrestling, etc).

 

Kudos to both you and Susano; HSMA (and the earlier UMA/Ninja Hero) is the best martial arts rulebook I've found. And I can't think of higher praise than a practising fighter liking it so much he wants to work with it further.

 

Edited: typos.

[Netzilla]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

Takedown defence is, simply, the ability to avoid a takedown. And yes, block or dodge work excellently for it.

 

However, there's a common technique - the sprawl - which if done right moves the advantage to the defender. and I think this is what Mo was talking about. As the attack crouches to grab the defender's legs the defender spreads his legs wide and slides them backwards, coming down with his upper torso on the attacker's back (a quick or cautious attacker may be able to pull out of this).

 

I'd be inclined to build it as a grapple maneouvre which must follow a block or dodge against a grapple.

 

[snip]

 

And it's always possible to build extra maneouvres (such as 'sprawl') using the system if our interpretation of the off-the-peg styles differs.

 

Having a background in Judo with a bit of wrestling and having worked with a number of MMA guys, here's my interpretation of how to build the Sprawl manuever:

 

SPRAWL
------------------------------------
Exclusive Basis: Block (Abort)   +0
Elements:
 Grab Opponent                  +3
 +2 OCV                         +2
 +10 STR                        +2
 -2 DCV                         -2
 Both Hands                     -0
 Response to Takedowns/Throws   -3
------------------------------------
Total Cost                        3

Here's my reasoning:

 

Based on Block for probably obvious reasons.

Grab Opponent (probably also obvious)

+2 OCV to help succeed on the Block

+10 STR for the Grab

-1 DCV because if you blow the sprawl, you're vulnerable.

Both Hands (again, obvious)

Response to Takedowns/Throws as you can only do this in response to a takedown attempt.

 

So, when an opponent attempts a throw or takedown maneuver, your character can abort to the Sprawl to Block at +2 OCV/-1 DCV. If successful, then your character will have grabbed the opponent at +10 STR.

[Barwickian]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

That looks pretty good to me. I had thought about it a 'target falls' element, but I'm not sure that's necessary, as not all sprawls end in a takedown. The simple grapple covers a subsequent throw/takedown, clinch or lock attempt.

[Cardinal]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

Isn't there already a maneuver called Grappling Block that fits the bill? My memory is that it is a block that results in a grab.

[Netzilla]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

Isn't there already a maneuver called Grappling Block that fits the bill? My memory is that it is a block that results in a grab.

 

It's similar except that it grabs only 1 limb and can be used to block any HtH attack. I believe it's meant more as a deflect-and-grab-the-striking-limb maneuver you see in various 'soft' martial arts. If you've ever seen someone catch a kick in an MMA fight, Grappling Block would be good to simulate that.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

One thing to remember is that the Abort aspect of the move only applies to the Block, not the Grab. You have to have a held action to Block and Grab.

[purple justice]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

It is really interesting but in the real life a wrestler doesn't try to grab a man with a stick. It would be too dangerous.

A kali eskrima practicer habitually uses one stick in each hand. Why does your character ony one ?

[BlackSword]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

A kali eskrima practicer habitually uses one stick in each hand. Why does your character ony one ?

Escrima can use a mix of weapons, from two sticks (dobleteros), stick and knife (espada y daga), and single stick with empty hand.

[purple justice]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

Oh I didn't know that. Thanks for the information.

Last year I participated to a stage of JKD with included a part of Kali eskrima. Really interesting but hard for a novice like me.

[RexMundi]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

Escrima/arnis/Kali/Eskrima etc etc etc, heh, has as many forms as it does titles for the form. Certainly one of the better write ups in the HSMA book as well.

 

~Rex.....says lots can be done with block and grapple, especially block, and doubley so if tied to non exclusive elements.

[Barwickian]

Re: HSMA: A combat test

 

It is really interesting but in the real life a wrestler doesn't try to grab a man with a stick. It would be too dangerous.

A kali eskrima practicer habitually uses one stick in each hand. Why does your character ony one ?

 

He started with two sticks. One of the was lost when my opponent disarmed it in his first move,