Help with Transform

[Rhonin84]

Any help would be useful...we are trying Champions for the first time in a looong time and I was hoping I could get some help with a power question.

 

I have two players that both want to transform into a Raven and a Sparrow. Regular creatures that would only give them flight and maybe some sight bonuses.

 

I have read the power description but I'm afraid I have a few other game systems in my mind right now and it just isn't making sense. Any help for an old Champs player from the early 80's?

 

Thanks

 

Rhonin

[Rhonin84]

Re: Help with Transform

 

Sorry this is for 6E!

[Naanomi]

Re: Help with Transform

 

As with all things in this system, there is more than one way to do this.

 

First, and most straight forward, would be a 'Multiform' power; with a write up of their avian forms on a separate sheet.

 

Slightly more complicated, but sometimes also appropriate, would be a 'Shrink' power to get to the correct size, and then a variety of powers Linked to the Shrink... Flight, Enhances Senses, Shape-shift (into the bird looks)

 

This second option allows the players to keep access to all their old abilities and such without duplicating them all in the Multiform.

[Escafarc]

Re: Help with Transform

 

You're looking at the wrong Power for this. Check out Multiform or Flight linked to Shapshift.

[baronspam]

Re: Help with Transform

 

You are probably not looking at a transform here. Transform lets you turn stuff into other stuff. Rocks into oranges, enemies into toads, etc. Its not really to change yourself.

 

The multiform power lets you have several differnt forms that you change between. Basically, each form has its own character sheet and set of stats. You would have a character with a human form and a raven form, each with its own stats, powers, etc.

 

As others have said, the other option is to buy some linked powers to simulate the effects of the changes. Shriking to get to the right size, and them some powers like flight, enchanced senses, etc, only usable when shrunk, to simulate the raven's abilities. Shapchange can let you look like a raven rather than a little, flying, sharp eyed person.

 

EDIT: I am away from my books, shapechange might be really called shapeshift. Having a senior moment over that.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Help with Transform

 

Yeah, Transform isn't meant for use on oneself.

 

Since birds are significantly different in abilities than a humanoid (no hands being the big one, meaning the character has different Disadvantages), I'd recommend the use of Multiform for the bird forms.

[Naanomi]

Re: Help with Transform

 

Since birds are significantly different in abilities than a humanoid (no hands being the big one' date=' meaning the character has different Disadvantages), I'd recommend the use of Multiform for the bird forms.[/quote']

 

That can be a 'side effect' of the linked power set, sort of how Growth and Shrink work when toolkited out. If the character is the same, just in bird shape (no chance in mentality, knowledge, skill set, etc) I'd prefer the linked powers over multiform... still, both are totally viable.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Help with Transform

 

That can be a 'side effect' of the linked power set' date=' sort of how Growth and Shrink work when toolkited out. If the character is the same, just in bird shape (no chance in mentality, knowledge, skill set, etc) I'd prefer the linked powers over multiform... still, both are totally viable.[/quote']

 

My general guideline is 'If the Disads change, you should use Multiform', but as you say, either works.

[Rhonin84]

Re: Help with Transform

 

If anyone would walk me thru this then I would appreciate it...I will need to take a look at Multiform then.

[baronspam]

Re: Help with Transform

 

Rules for for Multiform are on pg. 266 of 6E1. The Basics: Pick one form you have as you "true form", you pay 1 character point for each 5 character point your alteranate form is built on. Your alternate forms are essentially differnent characters, they have their own stats, powers, skills, even complications. Changing between forms is a half phase action. You can have additonal extra forms for a small cost.

 

There are a bunch more situation specific rules listed in the book, but that is the basics of it. The raven form has its own character sheet, and the human form pays 1 point for every 5 points the raven is built on.

[Rhonin84]

Re: Help with Transform

 

Rules for for Multiform are on pg. 266 of 6E1. The Basics: Pick one form you have as you "true form", you pay 1 character point for each 5 character point your alteranate form is built on. Your alternate forms are essentially differnent characters, they have their own stats, powers, skills, even complications. Changing between forms is a half phase action. You can have additonal extra forms for a small cost.

 

There are a bunch more situation specific rules listed in the book, but that is the basics of it. The raven form has its own character sheet, and the human form pays 1 point for every 5 points the raven is built on.

 

Alright thanks I can work with that! Last question before I go wandering through the books, is a regular bird, IE Raven or Sparrow or Hawk statted out somewhere?

[Arc Esu]

Re: Help with Transform

 

Rhonin-

 

Yes, all the birds you mentioned are statted out in the Hero System Bestiary (I'm at work so I can't give you a page number). To reflect that it's a human mind in a bird body, you may need to change the write-up slightly (higher Int, Ego, and Pre to match the human's stats, no "Animal Intelligence" limitation, higher OMCV and DMCV, etc).

[Rhonin84]

Re: Help with Transform

 

Rhonin-

 

Yes, all the birds you mentioned are statted out in the Hero System Bestiary (I'm at work so I can't give you a page number). To reflect that it's a human mind in a bird body, you may need to change the write-up slightly (higher Int, Ego, and Pre to match the human's stats, no "Animal Intelligence" limitation, higher OMCV and DMCV, etc).

 

Ok thanks I will have to look at picking that book up then!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Help with Transform

 

Raven: page 430

Sparrow (song bird): page 431

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help with Transform

 

Hmmm. My first question would be do they really want to transform into those creatures. Do they want the strength of a raven and the BODY of a raven or do they simply want to be able to fly, be smaller and look like a raven?

 

If they actually want to BE a raven then multiform might be the way. Otherwise you might be looking at Flight and Shrinking with a special effect of "looks like a raven".

 

 

It really depends on what the player wants to be able to do when in raven or sparrow form....

 

 

Doc

[Rhonin84]

Re: Help with Transform

 

Hmmm. My first question would be do they really want to transform into those creatures. Do they want the strength of a raven and the BODY of a raven or do they simply want to be able to fly, be smaller and look like a raven?

 

If they actually want to BE a raven then multiform might be the way. Otherwise you might be looking at Flight and Shrinking with a special effect of "looks like a raven".

 

 

It really depends on what the player wants to be able to do when in raven or sparrow form....

 

 

Doc

 

They want to keep their intelligence and reasoning abilities but be able to fly and pass as a bird. I hope that makes sense...

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help with Transform

 

I presume this is a heroic level game. The question is whether the players really want to lose all of the other stuff, like defences, CV and BODY etc.

 

You could go with flight and shapeshift which essentially means that the characters would look and feel (and potentially smell etc) like the shape they shift to without losing all of the rest of their abilities. As a GM I would be inclined to allow the shift to a different form (as it is always the same form) to be part of the SFX of the flight and shrinking being used - any ordinary person would be convinced - people with special senses would potentially spot discrepancies.

 

Doc

[baronspam]

Re: Help with Transform

 

Hmmm. My first question would be do they really want to transform into those creatures. Do they want the strength of a raven and the BODY of a raven or do they simply want to be able to fly, be smaller and look like a raven?

 

If they actually want to BE a raven then multiform might be the way. Otherwise you might be looking at Flight and Shrinking with a special effect of "looks like a raven".

 

 

It really depends on what the player wants to be able to do when in raven or sparrow form....

 

 

Doc

 

This is a good point. The thing to remember (to the OP) is that with multiform each form is basically a different character. Its hard to say without more details on your campaing, but a "realistic" raven character sheet may make you very vulnerable in combat. You will have the the stun, pd, body ,etc of a raven. You are free to buy those up, but as you do so the multform gets more and more expensive. You also will not have any powers/skills/talents that your main character does, unless you duplicate them on the character sheet for the multiform, further increasing the cost.

 

An advantage of the multiform, however is that once in raven form you can stay that way as long as you want without having to spend endurance, worry about contant vs persistant powers, etc.

 

The alternative to multiform is to just buy some shrinking to get down to size, some flight only usable when shrunk, some senses only usable when shrunk, and maybe a shapechange for one specific form (look like a bird). You might look at unified power as a limitation (the whole thing is one power "turn into a bird".) The advantage of this is that you keep your defences and other powers. The drawbacks of this is that you have to pay end to shrink down, or buy it with an advantage to cost 0 endurance, and being a constant power you would transform back if knocked out.

 

The tricky part about the second is option about what to do about the physical limitations that shrinking/raven form imposes. You would lack a human voice and hands if you were in "bird form". With multiform this is just a complication on the raven character sheet. I am honestly not sure how to handle that on the non-multiform option. Some kind of limitation, but not sure if you would put it on just the shrinking or all the bird powers.

 

Is there a rules guru who might right up a version of the non-multiform "Turn Into a Bird' with all the advantages and limitations?

[TheSouljourner]

Re: Help with Transform

 

My yardstick is that I use multiform whenever the alternate form *loses* some or all of the powers of the main form. Thus, if you turn into a raven and can no longer cast spells, multiform is appropriate. If you retain your abilities, it would probably be better to use a combo of flight, shrinking, and shapechange to a specific shape.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Help with Transform

 

You would lack a human voice and hands if you were in "bird form".

 

Ravens can be taught to speak like parrots, so presumably a human being taking the form of one while retaining his or her intellect would have no difficulty in that respect.

[Rhonin84]

Re: Help with Transform

 

What the characters want is their form to change into that of a bird. They want their intellect and powers of reason but in the form of a bird. They do want the natural abilities of the bird, flight better eyesight, but that's about it.

 

Does that make sense and knowing that then, what is the best way to go with that?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Help with Transform

 

As GM, I would say that you have shrinking, flight, and possibly a sense or two. I would give the players this with the form of a raven for free - all the powers linked or part of a unified power (need to read the rules properly to get an idea of what is best - linked sounds better to me as they are all used at the same time). The form would be good for mooks and any cursory examination. If they wanted to fool even the closest examination then I would add shapeshift into this.

 

If I had time I would find out what this meant cost wise.

 

However, this provides you with the ability to gain the advantages of being a raven without attracting the disadvantage of that.

 

Doc

[Naanomi]

Re: Help with Transform

 

In the section about toolkitting Growth/Shrink/DI; the disadvantages that come with those powers are 'Side Effects' that 'activate whenever the power is used'. I imagine the same thing would be true of this shapeshift power in regard to the disadvantages you gain. Just have to decide if 'No Manipulating Limbs', 'Cannot Speak', and perhaps 'Affected as Animal and Human class minds' is Minor, Major, whatever. I'd tally up the points and compare it to the growth states or something, but I am away from books right now.

 

Also, as a side note, I'd probably make the shrink and shapeshift 'costs endurance only to activate'

[Rhonin84]

Re: Help with Transform

 

I think I will take a look at the Champions Super Power book as well and see if there is anything spelled out there...

 

I would like to thank everyone for chiming in and helping, please continue it helps me wrap my head around the rules...I have one player who is trying to get me to use MnM3e so I need to have answers for certain questions...this being one of them.