Multiform

[Rebar]

I don't understand Multiform.

 

I've got a human (20CP) that can transfrom into a Polar Bear (200CP).

 

I thought the most expensive form (bear) should pay the cost of the MF but it doesn't make sense this way. The bear form is paying for its own points (i.e. 40 of its points must go into paying for the most expensive 200pt form.) Which is fine, except the human form is now free to use as many points as he wants all the way up to 200 - the only restriction is to ensure that he starts off balanced with disads.

 

So the bear earns 4XP. He can put it into MF, and now the humans form can jump from 20CP to 40CP, as long as I can balance it with a 20pt. disad.

 

That can't be right. Despite what the rules say, ALL forms MUST gain experience normally. The only caveat is that the points allotted for MF must climbs accordingly. (Which might mean only 3XP to grow, with 1 put in MF).

 

Same thing works if its created with the humans as the true form. The MF is paid for by the human.

 

Human form, instead of being 20pts, spends 40 points on MF and gets 200pt bear. Now the human earns 4XP. If the human put those 4 pts into MF, can the bear increase to 220pts? No! Well, sure if I added another 20pts of disads to the bear so that it still balanced out, right?

 

So, how does the bear grow? XP! The bear MUST gain 4XP, just like normal, despite the fact that the rules do not say that.

 

Huh?

 

(Also, to be persnickety, conceptually, why is the human earning anything? It is possible that the human is not even aware of the adventure that transpired since she's got MF amnesia.)

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

Nope. Only the Main Form pays for Multiform. Only the Main Form gets the XP.

 

Of course a Multiform could have it own Multiform (two-staged transformation) or the Multiforms could have seperate personalities, but overall that is the rule.

 

Edit. In the Rules the Main Form is called "True Form", the others are called "alternate forms".

[Martin2]

Re: Multiform

 

This is how I read the Multiform (correct me if I am wrong!).

 

You have a character based on the campaign maximum (in my players case is 400). You then pay the points into multiform to get your character point maximum and any extra forms (in my players case it was 70 points to make 2 characters of 325 points, so one 400 point and two 325 point characters). You can then decide to give any of your characters Multiform. It does not have to be the main character it can be one of the new forms and this becomes the true form character (my player chose to put the multiform into one of the 325 point characters so allowing the 400 to have more focus on powers other than multiform).

 

The general rule is that the true form character is the one who gets the experience. Your alternative forms do not gain experience. As 1 experience is 1 character point and if this is invested into the Multiform this would be 5 character points for your other multiform so this would not please every other player in your group if you did this every time so gaining 5 for every one of theirs making your alternative forms grow larger and larger compared to everyone else.

 

So the general rule is all your experience is given to your true form character. Only 1 character point in 6 is allowed to be placed in your multiform so giving 5 character points for your True form to invest in other skills and powers and 5 character points for your alternative forms (effectively 10 character points from 6) This keeps all character moving at a similar rate from the experience.

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

That is, as far as I know

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

The general rule is that the true form character is the one who gets the experience. Your alternative forms do not gain experience. As 1 experience is 1 character point and if this is invested into the Multiform this would be 5 character points for your other multiform so this would not please every other player in your group if you did this every time so gaining 5 for every one of theirs making your alternative forms grow larger and larger compared to everyone else.

 

So the general rule is all your experience is given to your true form character. Only 1 character point in 6 is allowed to be placed in your multiform so giving 5 character points for your True form to invest in other skills and powers and 5 character points for your alternative forms (effectively 10 character points from 6) This keeps all character moving at a similar rate from the experience.

 

I'm sorry, this just makes no sense. (Not your explanation - I think you're interpreted the rules literally, I just can't believe HG would design it this way.)

 

1] So, my 20pt true form character gets 4XP. She can throw them into MF if she chooses. So, her 200pt form just jumped by 20pts. She can do this EVERY TIME she gains XP. After 12 adventures, she'll be pushing 400pt - twice as powerful as her teammates.

2] Does the (now) 220pt from still have to balance? i.e. do I have to find 20 pts in disads? When the alternate form is pushing 400pts, does it need to have acquired 200pts in disads to stay balanced?

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

1] So, my 20pt true form character gets 4XP. She can throw them into MF if she chooses. So, her 200pt form just jumped by 20pts. She can do this EVERY TIME she gains XP. After 12 adventures, she'll be pushing 400pt - twice as powerful as her teammates.

2] Does the (now) 220pt from still have to balance? i.e. do I have to find 20 pts in disads? When the alternate form is pushing 400pts, does it need to have acquired 200pts in disads to stay balanced?

Simply: You only have a 20 pt True form. If your true form is killed, your alternate forms are killed as well. Also, when body or STUN differ greatly, transforming back could kill your true form (as damage is shared between the forms). And your True form has to pay the price, thus he is up to (Character Limits/5) Points behind every other characters "true form".

 

And of course Multiform should fit into the campaign limits (especially the AP of Multiform and how powerfull your alternate forms can be).

 

Note that when you have only one form and they don't differ greatly (like small boy with big dragon form) but only minimal (small boy with Captain Marvel form), OIAID my be the better way to go.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiform

 

I'm sorry, this just makes no sense. (Not your explanation - I think you're interpreted the rules literally, I just can't believe HG would design it this way.)

 

1] So, my 20pt true form character gets 4XP. She can throw them into MF if she chooses. So, her 200pt form just jumped by 20pts. She can do this EVERY TIME she gains XP. After 12 adventures, she'll be pushing 400pt - twice as powerful as her teammates.

2] Does the (now) 220pt from still have to balance? i.e. do I have to find 20 pts in disads? When the alternate form is pushing 400pts, does it need to have acquired 200pts in disads to stay balanced?

 

By the book, the higher point form has the same base points as the base form, and must find sufficient disadvantage/complication points to balance out.

 

As with many things Hero, "I can" does not equate to "I should". In a 200 point game, you could also spend your points on a 12d6 Blast and +20/+20 Armor. That takes 120 points (less if you have some limitations) leaving 80 to "fill out" the character. Will that be a balanced character in your 200 point game? I'm guessing not - so you would not allow such a character in the game. He could spend the same 120 points on Summoning 16 200 point Slavishly Loyal followers. Pretty sure I wouldn't let that character in either.

 

Similarly, a Multiform based on twice the points of the PC's will not be a balanced character, so it goes.

 

As a very basic rule, we would generally keep the Multiforms to the same total points as the PC. So, if you gain 25 xp, no more than 5 can get spent on the Multiform, bringing it to 225 total points.

 

That's a really broad, basic rule though. I can certainly see situations where it needs to be broken, such as a Fantasy spell that Shapeshifts the wizard into a Dragon - likely with some significant limitations, but undoubtedly with way more points than the PC's have, and probably not balanced off in full with extra disadvantages.

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

The entire process of "upgrading" the multiforms is detailed on 6E1 269. It's sugested the players uses common sense, the GM revievs every change or you simply use a "Only 1 XP out of 6 can go into multiform"-rule. That way, the alternate forms will never get unbalacing strong.

Also, alternate forms do not need to take complications to get those points. Taking complications is only required while building the form and each form can have different complications (but then they have different total points too). But when you don't take the full complications while building a form, these points are lost forever. You can't retroactively take them!

 

With vanilla Multiform you have the following limitations:

Change takes a Half action

All Powers of the lost form turn offline. All Powers of the form you change into are offline too.

All STUN, BODY and END used by any form count against the limits of whatever form is currently active. Alternatively with great distances (5 BODY vs. 35 BODY) you can make the loss percentuall/based on quotients

The Transformation is Persistant (you don't change back when Stunned/K.O.)

 

Let's take an Example with three Forms:

True Form is Build on Standart Heroic (400, incl. 75 Complciations) and Pays for two Forms of up to 400 Points each (85 AP).

First A-Form is Build the same way: 400, incl. 75 Complications.

Second A-Form is Build with lesser Points, 325. A 400-pt Hero without matchign complications.

 

Now he gets 6 XP and invests 1 In the Multiform and the other 5 in his True Form:

True Form: 405 with 75 Complications or a 400 with 70 Compllcations

1. A-Form: 405 with 75 Complications or a 400 with 70 Compllcations

2. A-Form: 330 Points, no Complications

 

I hope that helps understanding the bancing

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

Sounds like the final answer is that only 1 pt in 6 can go into MF, and that is the rate-limiting factor on the growth of the most expensive form.

 

OK but, since the MF has some limits on it, that 1CP might actually gain her 2AP in MF, meaning her bear form could jump by 10pts.

 

Also, her human form is going to gain 3XP for doing nothing but sitting in limbo. That 20pt character is going to grow fast.

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

Also' date=' her human form is going to gain 3XP for doing nothing but sitting in limbo. That 20pt character is going to grow [i']fast[/i].

When you put limitations into the mix, then change the rule accordingly that it says: You can only get 5 Points for your alternate froms for every 5 your true form gets. And it is solved. When you put advantages into the mix, it get's slightly more complicated.

Or simply use the intent of the rule: The Alternate forms schouldn't grow faster than the Real Form grows and shouldn't start beyond what your character was allowed.

 

The other thing is, her human form isn't "sitting in limbo" sure, her body and skills are, but her mind is in the bear form. As such, experiences from bear form carry over to human form. You could complicate the entire XP-Gaining/Spending Process to make it more realistic, but that would hardly be fun.

 

Also, we still asume that the characters have 200 pt allowed for them. If not, I wonder why this player was allowed to take a form with up to 8 times her own total points?

 

Could you give us the complete description of the character/multiform, especially what advantages/limitations, what points they are build on, etc?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiform

 

You take XP you're given and put them on your character sheet. You may spend as many as the GM allows on your Multiform. If you earn 4XP, and your GM allows you to spend all 4 on your Multiform Power then your Alternate Form goes up by 20 Points, and your True Form that earned the XP has 4 Spent XP.

 

I tend to spend 1 in 5 in a MP IF I want the Multiform to have more points. It tends to give a sort of even 5XP on the True Form +5 Points in the Multiform.

 

Spending points on Multiform is just like spending points on any other Power. Of course, sometimes the Multiform has Advantages or Limitations on it, and it may take more than 1XP to increase my Multiforms Alternate Forms by 5 Points. Or if I have Limitations spending 1XP on Multiform may actually give it +10 Points. At that point I adjust and spend as concept fits and as the GM permits.

 

They don't "grow" together, Multiform gains points as you spend XP on it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiform

 

Sounds like the final answer is that only 1 pt in 6 can go into MF, and that is the rate-limiting factor on the growth of the most expensive form.

 

OK but, since the MF has some limits on it, that 1CP might actually gain her 2AP in MF, meaning her bear form could jump by 10pts.

 

Which is why my rule is simply "the multiform is caped at the same total points as the base character". If the base character had 200 points, and earned 25 xp. up to 5 can be spent on the Multiform power, which will mean that form has 225 points as well.

 

Also' date=' her human form is going to gain 3XP for doing nothing but sitting in limbo. That 20pt character is going to grow [i']fast[/i].

 

The human form gained xp. It does not have to grow. It was a 20 point character, plus (say) 40 for the Multiform = 60 points. It could have spent 200 points. So why can't it be a 65 point character with 200 base points (including complications) + 25 xp after spending 5 points to make the other form a 225 point character?

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

Or simply use the intent of the rule: The Alternate forms schouldn't grow faster than the Real Form grows and shouldn't start beyond what your character was allowed.

That does not seem to be the intent of the rule. I would have thought they'd state it explicitly.

 

The other thing is, her human form isn't "sitting in limbo" sure, her body and skills are, but her mind is in the bear form. As such, experiences from bear form carry over to human form.

Not necessarily. There's nothing in the rules that says this must be true. In fact, there are limits to simulate this NOT being true.

 

 

Also' date=' we still asume that the characters have 200 pt allowed for them.[/quote']This is correct. But it changes nothing. It is the true form that has the MP. Once the game has started, there's no restriction on the point level of the 200pt version except how many pts can go into MF.

 

Could you give us the complete description of the character/multiform' date=' especially what advantages/limitations, what points they are build on, etc? [/quote']

Well, it really doesn't/shouldn't matter. The problem exists anyway. I can make it up a hypothetical character to show the problem..

 

5E rules

Character cap: 150+50.

True form: 20pt human, + 40AP Multiform (20RP, with limitations - loss of persanality after X, and ... something else)

(human character can only scrounge 40pts in disads)

Alternate form: 200

 

 

Oh, I don't know. Why can't the human form be 200pts? She gets the points free anyway! Why is she limited to 20?

 

Maybe I should just declare the bear to be the true form. Then it needs only spend 4CP to get a multiform for the 20pt human...

 

Or maybe what I should really do is scrap the MF completely and build it as an OHID. You know, that might make the most sense if her human form is that weak... I'll just have to figure out why she "forgets" all her science skills when in bear form.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

The human form gained xp. It does not have to grow. It was a 20 point character' date=' plus (say) 40 for the Multiform = 60 points. It could have spent 200 points. So why can't it be a 65 point character with 200 base points (including complications) + 25 xp after spending 5 points to make the other form a 225 point character?[/quote']

 

What??

 

If the human form is only allowed to spend 1XP per 6 gained, then 5XP cannot go into the alternate form; they either go into the real form or accumulate indefinitely, or are discarded.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiform

 

Isn't the human form a PC? If it is, it probably has more than 20 points. If the human form has 20 points, + 40 points of Multiform, and is a 200 point PC, it has 140 unspent points.

 

If the character earns 25 xp, and spends 5 bumping the Multiform to a 225 point form, it has now spent 65 points of 225 available and has 160 unspent points.

 

How is the former OK but the latter a problem?

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

Again: The true form and only the true form gets or spends XP. The points the true form invests into the multiform, go 1 to 5 Into Multiform Points and you can treat/write them down as if they were XP (buying of complications, increasing powers, etc...).

That the rule has the intent to tie True and Multiform growth to the same level, is the reason you asked for it: balancing. So no player can just put every XP into the Multiform and thus get 5 times the Points the other player get. And it is only one way to keep the balance, and as Hugh may say not the best.

 

Please give us the example character, at least with values for overall pt for the true form. Points, andvantages and limitations spend on Multiform and the Overall points of all Alternate forms. Otherwise we can hardly talk on even terms.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

Isn't the human form a PC? If it is' date=' it probably has more than 20 points. If the human form has 20 points, + 40 points of Multiform, and is a 200 point PC, it has 140 unspent points.[/quote']

Yes. The idea was that the human form is just a person.

 

The way MF is designed, there's no reason that the true form would ever be less than the campaign max. i.e. true form is always at least as powerful as any alternate form.

 

If the character earns 25 xp, and spends 5 bumping the Multiform to a 225 point form, it has now spent 65 points of 225 available and has 160 unspent points.

 

How is the former OK but the latter a problem?

And what's to stop the human from dropping all 25XP into MF? Now the bear form is 200+(5*25) = 325.

It still comes down to either:

- alternate forms cannot grow more than 5pts per 6XP earned by true form (i.e. each time true form get to put 1XP into Multiform)

or

- alternate forms cannot grow faster than XP gained

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

Wait. You have 200 Points allowed but a player only chooses to use 40 Multiform +20 = 60 Points?

 

Seriously, such a build is not really what MF is designed for. It designed that a character of say 200 Points buys a MF of roughly equal size, or the MF lower. But a Multiform taht is 10 Times as big as the real form?

 

What is the build? What is the whole picture here? Please tell us why anyone would build this or what it is supposed to represent.

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

Please give us the example character' date=' at least with values for overall pt for the true form. Points, andvantages and limitations spend on Multiform and the Overall points of all Alternate forms. Otherwise we can hardly talk on even terms.[/quote']

I did. A couple of posts back.

But again, it's not character-specific. It seems the real problem comes to light if conceptually, the true form is less powerful than the alternate form. According to the rules, there's just no reason to do this. Free points are simply discarded.

 

(The way it used to be, it was the most expensive form that paid for the MF of the less expensive form. That meant that the 200 pt bear might only pay 4pts on MF to get a weak second character. There were no free points floating around - you paid for what you got.)

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

OK, I'll throw it to you. Here's the concept:

 

Human form: regular young girl, some science skills and about 30pts in disads.

Bear form: 200pt supertype. Can speak and understand but does not share skills with human.

 

The SFX of the change is a "swap". Girl goes into limbo, replaced by bear. There is some memory cross-over (can see through each other's eyes but cannot act).

There are some limits on changing, notably, personality loss, difficulty changing back after 1-6 hours.

 

How would you build it, just roughly?

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

I did. A couple of posts back.

But again, it's not character-specific. It seems the real problem comes to light if conceptually, the true form is less powerful than the alternate form. According to the rules, there's just no reason to do this. Free points are simply discarded.

Again. Why would you? You are still in a 200-pt game, so the only thing you get is a more fragile/useless true form. You don't get more XP for being weaker in True Form or anything else. And if she grows faster, it is irrelevant: She still is a heck of a lot of points behind everyone else in the group. 140.

 

So there is absolutely no benefit in only taking 60 Points form the 200 and build your character with it and when the Alternate form started with 200 pt in a 200 pt game and isn't allowed to grow faster than the others, there is not the slightest inbalance in the system. Or did I miss anything?

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

Again. Why would you? You are still in a 200-pt game' date=' so the only thing you get is a more fragile/useless true form. You don't get more XP for being weaker in True Form or anything else.[/quote']

Right. Normally, if you want something you have to pay for it. The corollary is: if you don't want it, you don't have to buy it.

 

But this doesn't work here. Conceptually, I wanted one normal character and one 200 point character. This is perfectly valid and very common concept.

 

The MF rules assume no one would ever want this. (The new rules do; the older way of building MF allowed you to build it this way of you wanted.)

 

 

How would you build Bruce Banner/The Hulk? Would you just max out Bruce Banner until he was as powerful as the Hulk?

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

How would you build Bruce Banner/The Hulk? Would you just max out Bruce Banner until he was as powerful as the Hulk?

He has time and again shown that he was a brilliant scientist. Strong enough to foil the military for a long, long time. 400 pt, with 80 going into the hulk leave 320 to buy Skills, INT and whatever else he had. And we can just leave out the 75 Complications, thus making him 400-75-80 = 240 Points.

 

Also, how doesn't it allow you to build a lower level "true form"? You can just buy the Small Human Form as Multiform for the big one (4 Points). You don't revert and it would be a -0 Limitation to say if you do, you go to the smaller.

Or you just say: Multiform can only grow as fast as other characters. True form only can put as many points into skills, charactersitics, perks and the like as he put in Multiform. Effectively you invalidate a lot of XP wich seems to be what you want to do.

[Christopher]

Re: Multiform

 

Even easier: if the small human isn't part of the action, just buy the need to reverse Transform and let her life her normal, unaware life this way:

Subject to Orders "The Other Life", how oft you want it to be a part of the game.

Depoendance: Must transform back, or suffer....

[Rebar]

Re: Multiform

 

He has time and again shown that he was a brilliant scientist. Strong enough to foil the military for a long, long time. 400 pt, with 80 going into the hulk leave 320 to buy Skills, INT and whatever else he had. And we can just leave out the 75 Complications, thus making him 400-75-80 = 240 Points.

Really? You'd say that, conceptually, Bruce Banner is as powerful a character as The Hulk?

 

 

Also, how doesn't it allow you to build a lower level "true form"? You can just buy the Small Human Form as Multiform for the big one (4 Points). You don't revert and it would be a -0 Limitation to say if you do, you go to the smaller.

Or you just say: Multiform can only grow as fast as other characters. True form only can put as many points into skills, charactersitics, perks and the like as he put in Multiform. Effectively you invalidate a lot of XP wich seems to be what you want to do.

So you suggest I just ignore the whole "True form versus alternate Form" thing. Build the bear as the main form, with the human form as the MF. Yep. This is what I was thinking too. It's basically a reversion to the old rules. i.e. the new rules have a hole in them.