Voodoo Mind Barrier

[beezany]

A character in the "Crossroads Blues" adventure has this power, and I'm struggling to understand how or why it works. According to the text, Voodoo Mind Barrier protects the character "from the prying Detects of mystics and mentalists" so that he appears to have no innate powers.

 

But the actual power write-up appears to simply be a naked advantage removing the END cost of his 30 EGO (see below). What does that have to do with hiding from Detects and Mind Scans?

 

Voodoo Mind Barrier: Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) for up to EGO 30

Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½); only to hide from mind scans and magical scans

[dmjalund]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

I thought Mental Shapeshift is supposed to be required to do this.

[beezany]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

That would make sense, and cost a lot less too!

 

Voodoo Mind Barrier: Shape Shift (mental group), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½). Total cost: 3 points.

 

The original power cost 22/18 and doesn't seem to accomplish anything useful. This way only costs 3/3 and is well-defined in the power rules.

 

Does the mental shape shift cover the anti-mystic aspect of the power? I'm wondering whether that's a special effect, or whether the power also needs to affect magical senses. That would raise the base cost to 5 and the total cost to 7 (which is still a lot cheaper).

[dmjalund]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

probably

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

That would make sense, and cost a lot less too!

 

Voodoo Mind Barrier: Shape Shift (mental group), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½). Total cost: 3 points.

 

The original power cost 22/18 and doesn't seem to accomplish anything useful. This way only costs 3/3 and is well-defined in the power rules.

 

Does the mental shape shift cover the anti-mystic aspect of the power? I'm wondering whether that's a special effect, or whether the power also needs to affect magical senses. That would raise the base cost to 5 and the total cost to 7 (which is still a lot cheaper).

 

'Grats, you win the KISS award .

[Christopher]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

I think there is a rule that you can Hide your Mental Powers when Minds Scanned with an ego roll, but that cost END/phase.

So that way can hide without that cost, so you can "always hide" for no cost.

 

Shapshifting is a way. As is Invisibility/Image (Mental Sense Group). But only when Mental Awareness uses the Mental Group (it could use the Radio Group instead).

APG 94 has optional Rules howto Block them, including a "Barrier with at least 1 Point Mental Defense".

[dmjalund]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

if you use Shapeshifting the mentalist sees a mind, just not the mind that is actually there.

Invisibility means the mentalist doesn't see a mind there at all

Images means you can make a mentalist see a mind where there isn't one, or make other minds look different to what they actually are.

[Christopher]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

if you use Shapeshifting the mentalist sees a mind, just not the mind that is actually there.

Invisibility means the mentalist doesn't see a mind there at all

Images means you can make a mentalist see a mind where there isn't one, or make other minds look different to what they actually are.

The proble is that each of them must eiter be bought against the specific sense to be fooled, or you have to buy them for the Mental Sense Group and they don't work when the Mental Awareness/Mindscan uses another Sense Group.

[beezany]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

Thanks for the information, it's a big help. I suspected that there might be a way to actively hide from detection using EGO, but I can't find it in 6E1, 6E2, or APG. Any idea where I can track that down? The power makes a lot more sense with that in mind.

 

Although the Shape Shift is still a lot more efficient in this case. The character write-up says that he's specifically guarded from mentalists and mystic Detects, which you can cover with just mental group and detect senses.

 

The only other point to cover is that particularly strong mentalists and mystics are supposed to be able to pierce his disguise. Any suggestions for implementing that?

[Christopher]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

Found it:

6E1 262, "Strange and Powerfull Minds". As long as he is not active, he can negate the bonus the enemy would recieve (+1 OMCV for each 20 AP of Mental Powers), but it costs 1 END/10 EGO (Constant, so per Phase) to do so.

[beezany]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

Aha, thanks! I see how that works now. And actually it doesn't seem to work very well: This rule doesn't protect him from Detects, or hide his non-Mental powers. Shape Shift can do all that for less.

[Christopher]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

It prevent that the mere fact of being a Strong Mentalist makes him easy to find. Someone like Menton who is not hiding his powers that way, stands out "like a beacon" even in a city of a million people.

 

How can Shape Shift hide his non-Mental Powers? How can the fact that he has one power even be detected?

All Mental Awarness can do, is detect Mental Powers during their use, the same way normally eyesight can see a Short or Contionous Blast. It can't even reveal the fact that he has Mental Powers. Only Mind Scan can, simply by the fact that his unhidden Mental Aura has a certain Strenght and Stands out, reveal him as a Mentalist but still gives no clue about what those powers are.

Neither Shape Shift, nor Invisibility, nor Images can hide it that you use a mental Power. that is applying IPE (Mental Awarenss; +1/4) to the power.

They allow you to hide or fake your Mental Signature (so they think you are somebody completly normal/different when examined with Mental Awareness) but unless you also hide your Mental Power (the EGO base thing), these 200 AP of Mental Powers and the resulting +10 OCV might simply "shine through".

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

0 END on one's EGO applies when attempting to escape from an Entangle based on ECV, but I can't see anything that really works here ...

[Christopher]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

0 END on one's EGO applies when attempting to escape from an Entangle based on ECV' date=' but I can't see anything that really works here ...[/quote']

Not in the writeup presented in the OP

 

Voodoo Mind Barrier: Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) for up to EGO 30

Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½); only to hide from mind scans and magical scans

[Christopher]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

Ah, now I get what Nutty meant with hiding "non-metal powers":

Mind Scan may also get a bonus when the target is exceptionally Strong Magician.

 

It may also be that the book in question features a "Magic Scan" Power/Mechanic that resembles Mind Scan (so the same rules for hinding your power apply to this).

[beezany]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

(Possible spoilers for "Crossroads Blues.")

 

The character is a voodoo magician with Mind Control and Summoning powers. He operates under the ruse that he's just a stage magician. Ordinarily, the fact that he's a mentalist and magician would make him easier to spot with Mind Scan, or with Detect powers designed to spot such things. The Voodoo Mind Barrier is meant to disguise him from those Mind Scans and Detects, according to the adventure, but the power as written doesn't do a very good job of that.

 

Shape Shift seems like a better solution: The Voodoo Mind Barrier then disguises him as "me with stage magic instead of real powers." Based on the write-up, he should have a disguise for mental group (mentalists) and detect senses (mystics).

[dmjalund]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

And if he wants to hide his powers from Mystics AS HE'S USING THEM then he will also need Invisible Power Effects

[beezany]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

Right, although I don't think that's the point of this power. It's just to protect him from people like Professor X who can detect supers.

[Christopher]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

(Possible spoilers for "Crossroads Blues.")

 

The character is a voodoo magician with Mind Control and Summoning powers. He operates under the ruse that he's just a stage magician. Ordinarily, the fact that he's a mentalist and magician would make him easier to spot with Mind Scan, or with Detect powers designed to spot such things. The Voodoo Mind Barrier is meant to disguise him from those Mind Scans and Detects, according to the adventure, but the power as written doesn't do a very good job of that.

 

Shape Shift seems like a better solution: The Voodoo Mind Barrier then disguises him as "me with stage magic instead of real powers." Based on the write-up, he should have a disguise for mental group (mentalists) and detect senses (mystics).

Indeed, I have no Idea if the hiding described under mind scan would work against detects. Actually, I don't know of any detect that can find you just because you are mentalist. Mental Awaresness is Detect build, but it only detects powers usage, not anything else.

 

Afaik Mind Scan is the only way to detect your Mental Powers, so actually that "Midn Barrier" should work good. Maybe just a misunderstanding of the rules on the side of the Autor? Perhaps he misremembered the entire "Hide your Mental Aura for EGO/5 END per Phase" thing, and thought it would work against a "Detect (Mentalist)"? (asuming such a power exists even in the first place).

[Lucius]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

Indeed' date=' I have no Idea if the hiding described under mind scan would work against detects. Actually, I don't know of any detect that [i']can[/i] find you just because you are mentalist. Mental Awaresness is Detect build, but it only detects powers usage, not anything else.

 

Afaik Mind Scan is the only way to detect your Mental Powers, so actually that "Midn Barrier" should work good. Maybe just a misunderstanding of the rules on the side of the Autor? Perhaps he misremembered the entire "Hide your Mental Aura for EGO/5 END per Phase" thing, and thought it would work against a "Detect (Mentalist)"? (asuming such a power exists even in the first place).

 

It does now

 

Detect A Class Of Things: Mentalists (Mental Group), Discriminatory, Analyze, Increased Arc Of Perception (240 Degrees), Penetrative, Rapid: x100, Sense, Telescopic: +10 Real Cost 40

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Detect Palindromedary

[Christopher]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

Detect A Class Of Things: Mentalists (Mental Group)' date=' Discriminatory, Analyze, Increased Arc Of Perception (240 Degrees), Penetrative, Rapid: x100, Sense, Telescopic: +10 Real Cost 40[/quote']

What level of Detect is that? And is this thing still fair/beatable?

 

Unless the character has some type of Distinctive Feature that is detectable, detecing someone beacuse he has a certain power or uses a certain Special Effect sound like a very dangerous thing for any Campaign.

The next step would be "Detect guys with Blasts", "Detect guys with Attack Powers", "Detect guys with Body Affecting Powers" and the like, so in the end you would just have caused a lot of chaous by allowing it.

[Lucius]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

If I'm not mistaken, Champions has had "Detect Guys with Mutant Powers" for a very very long time now.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary buys Detect: Palindromedary Detection, to know when it's been detected

[Christopher]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

"You should also consider establishing rules that reflect the characters’ mutant nature — for example, maybe all PCs have to take a Distinctive Features Complication because government agents can detect them with special scanners[...]" Champions 6E 37

"Campaigns featuring characters who are mutants often require such characters to take the Distinctive Feature Mutant (Not Concealable, Always Noticed; Detectable Only By Unusual Senses; 10 points). That way, villains and government agents with special scanners can identify the character as a mutant." Champions 6E 107

 

Bold added by me.

 

Saphire has this Complication. It's part of the Mutant Blaster, Mutant Brick and any other Mutant Based Complication Sets.

 

So this detect was only there as Part of the Distinctive Feature (Not Obvious) Mutant, since it's the only means to detect them. Of coruse you can make it (or a similar SFX appropirate Complication) an everyman Complication, but until then there should be not Detect just because of the Special Effect used.

[Lucius]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

"You should also consider establishing rules that reflect the characters’ mutant nature — for example' date=' maybe all PCs have to take a Distinctive Features Complication [b']because[/b] government agents can detect them with special scanners[...]" Champions 6E 37

"Campaigns featuring characters who are mutants often require such characters to take the Distinctive Feature Mutant (Not Concealable, Always Noticed; Detectable Only By Unusual Senses; 10 points). That way, villains and government agents with special scanners can identify the character as a mutant." Champions 6E 107

 

Bold added by me.

 

Saphire has this Complication. It's part of the Mutant Blaster, Mutant Brick and any other Mutant Based Complication Sets.

 

So this detect was only there as Part of the Distinctive Feature (Not Obvious) Mutant, since it's the only means to detect them. Of coruse you can make it (or a similar SFX appropirate Complication) an everyman Complication, but until then there should be not Detect just because of the Special Effect used.

 

 

You're putting the cart before the horse. It's not that Mutants can be Detected because they have Distinctive Features; it's that they have Distinctive Features because the campaign assumptions are such that they WILL be Detected, often enough to matter.

 

 

I'll also point out that you're not quoting the rules; you're quoting the Champions book. Nothing in the description of the Power Detect says "this can only be used to detect something with Distinctive Features."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Distinctive Features: Palindromedary

[Lucius]

Re: Voodoo Mind Barrier

 

What level of Detect is that? And is this thing still fair/beatable?

 

I honestly don't know what you mean by "level of Detect." As far as I know, Detect doesn't come in levels. It's a 40 Active Point Power if that's what you're asking.

 

It could of course be bought cheaper if one didn't want all the extras like Discriminatory and Telescopic.

 

As for being beatable, it could of course be defeated by something like Invisibility to Mental Senses, and is as vulnerable to Flash and Images etc. as any other Sense. I would say it could also possibly be defeated by the right skills.

 

How is Detect Mutant beatable?

 

 

While I'm at it, as far as "Detecting a Special Effect" goes, Detect Magic has been around since the first Fantasy Hero.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I buy Detect Palindromedary Detection Detection, so I know when the palindromedary has detected that I am detecting it.