My dreamscape within a dream

[Ragitsu]

Though this didn't strictly deal with a HERO game, I could easily see it being adapted for one.

 

My dream last night involved me entering a sort of "pocket dimension" with small boundaries...it was another house, and the surrounding street, but the rest was bordered by pure blackness. The house itself was very rough in construction...at first.

 

I ultimately find out that this dimension is able to be molded by my ability to dream. Essentially, the dreamscape is only accessible while i'm asleep (within the dream...trippy, huh?), but anyone else in the "real world", awake or not, can enter with me.

 

Assuming I could make enough "dreaming rolls", the pocket dimension could eventually grow much larger. For the time being, I only experimented with adding details to the plot of land, and making the house more presentable.

 

So...how would you build such an ability with HERO 6th Edition? I imagine Extra-Dimensional Movement would be the start.

[Christopher]

Re: My dreamscape within a dream

 

So...how would you build such an ability with HERO 6th Edition? I imagine Extra-Dimensional Movement would be the start.

The house/area could be build as Base.

 

That you need to start sleeping first could be made things like Extra Time, Feedback (from your real body).

 

Alternatively a "Astral Projection" Type duplicate could work.

When you have the APG, take a look at "Projection" (afaik it's listed under Desolidification Rules).

[Ragitsu]

Re: My dreamscape within a dream

 

The house/area could be build as Base.

 

That you need to start sleeping first could be made things like Extra Time, Feedback (from your real body).

 

Alternatively a "Astral Projection" Type duplicate could work.

When you have the APG, take a look at "Projection" (afaik it's listed under Desolidification Rules).

 

Either the Base/Dimension exists all the time, or is only brought into existence when the character in question is sleeping. But, the only way those they do not wish to bring in can enter would be through very exotic/hard to reproduce powers.

 

The other issue is time. Should the dimension only be available for eight "real" hours (the period of time the character sleeps) or would it last for much longer within (dreams can last for subjectively longer than "real" time)?

[Christopher]

Re: My dreamscape within a dream

 

Either the Base/Dimension exists all the time' date=' or is only brought into existence when the character in question is sleeping.[/quote']

That is a question, but only you can answer it. A normal EDM can only go to existing dimensions so it would most likely be permanent.

Also, what happens to those going with you? Do they come as Dream-Projection too, or Physically? How is their presence in the dimension linked to your sleep? (can they stay when you wake up? does the dimension chease to exsit?).

 

But' date=' the only way those they do not wish to bring in can enter would be through very exotic/hard to reproduce powers.[/quote']

A EDM for that Dimension, like you do. I think that could somehow effect the "Location" variable of the Base, but such rules may only exist in the "Ultimate Base" Sourcebook.

 

The other issue is time. Should the dimension only be available for eight "real" hours (the period of time the character sleeps) or would it last for much longer within (dreams can last for subjectively longer than "real" time)?

This is directly linked to your first question. With normal EDM dimension, it woulkd be permanent and you only "stumbeled" across it.

[Gent]

Re: My dreamscape within a dream

 

it woulkd be permanent and you only "stumbeled" across it.

It could have originated in a mundane dream, and somehow become permanent afterwards.

[Christopher]

Re: My dreamscape within a dream

 

When he wants to build it out, it has to be permanent.

 

So far we have the following variants:

EDM:

Let you Mind enter the Dreamscape: extra-Dimensional Movement (only the personal base in his dreamscape), reduced endurance (0 enD; +½) (30 active points);

Meat Body (character’s body remains in the real world, but cannot move, perceive, or act. Damage to either the dream form or the real body can hurt or kill the character; -1), extra time (must fall asleep in order to reach dreamscape, 1 hour; -1½); 8 Real Cost.

(this a modification of the "Cyberspace" Power from 6E1 223)

 

Step into the Dreamscape:

Extra-Dimensional Movement (only the personal base in his dreamscape), (20 active points); 20 Real Cost

You just transport your body over there.

 

Duplication:

Enter the Dreamscape: (creates dreamscape form which leaves character’s body behind to travel the dreamscape)

Duplication (creates 350-point dreamscape form), easy recombination (half phase action at half Dcv), ranged recombination (+½), altered Duplicate (100%; +1) (187 active points); Base character is incapacitated and helpless While Duplicate exists (-1), extra time (must fall asleep in order to reach dreamscape, 1 hour; -1½), Feedback (-1). total cost: 41 Real Cost.

(Notes: The duplicate will be created in your dreamscape and can have skills/powers that are usefull there; This is almost a excapt copy of the "Astral Form" writeup from 6E1 204).

[Ragitsu]

Re: My dreamscape within a dream

 

Here is essentially what I have in mind ->

 

Character falls asleep, then their dream self/astral projection can reach this dream pocket dimension. The dimension starts out small, but can be expanded in time with "dreaming rolls". Time flows slower here: one "real" second is three "dream" seconds here (effectively giving up to twenty four hours for the eight hours slept in the real world).

 

If dream selves get hurt in the dimension, nothing happens to the real selves. HOWEVER...since the character can bring in someone with their consent via a telepathic message, if they happen to be the awake, and then THEY get injured/killed...that stays when they return to the real world. This, of course, can be avoided if those being brought in are already asleep as well.

[Christopher]

Re: My dreamscape within a dream

 

The fact that damage should not translate makes the EDM approach to not vey easy.

 

That leaves only Duplication, without the feedback and without averaging during recombination. It has the advantage that you can take powers there you would not have in the real world (inlcuding the telepathy and the power to call people there), while omitting those you would not need. You might not even need a full duplicate (fewer points), but I fear you will need the "altered Duplicate (100%; +1)" as your duplicate naturally exists in a different Dimension (wich is about the greates difference two beings can have).

Specific GM's may allow you to omit the Ranged recombination.

 

That the times flows slower is simply an effect of the alternate dimension. You could even use EDM to make a "Time Stop" power (everything is frozen in time, but you can't affect anything either).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: My dreamscape within a dream

 

The main issue here is that one has to decide how "Dreamscapes" work in their campaign setting.

 

In a game where any mentalist or mystic with Telepathy, mind link and Mind Scan can enter a persons dreams, I balk at requiring EDM to represent a personal dreamscape unless this represents a Dreamscape that is under complete control of the dreamer to the point that any Dreamnaughts could get caught within it and at the mercy of the dreamer.

 

Within "normal" Dreamscapes, I would require PRE rolls for the dreamer to regain their sense of self (and to control their own actions in the dream) INT rolls to recognize they are in a dream and EGO rolls to attempt to control their own dreamscape (modified by psychological complications etc as appropriate to the dream)

 

Prospective "Dreamnaughts" can enter a dream with Telepathy or Mind Link to enter a dream Krequiring EGO+10 to enter). In order to change the Dreamscape itself requires Mental Illusion and to control the actions of the Dreamer requires Mind Control of course.

 

An expert Dream Watcher could purchase EDM that could take them to the Astral realm or some similar Dream Dimension which would allow them to enter dreams with impunity. Such characters should be able to come and go as they please, although particularly intense dreams and nightmares may trap them and prevent their EDM from activating (adventure!)

 

I have lots mor to say on dreamscapes but I have homework to do, so that's all for now

[Doc Democracy]

Re: My dreamscape within a dream

 

Here is essentially what I have in mind ->

 

Character falls asleep, then their dream self/astral projection can reach this dream pocket dimension. The dimension starts out small, but can be expanded in time with "dreaming rolls". Time flows slower here: one "real" second is three "dream" seconds here (effectively giving up to twenty four hours for the eight hours slept in the real world).

 

If dream selves get hurt in the dimension, nothing happens to the real selves. HOWEVER...since the character can bring in someone with their consent via a telepathic message, if they happen to be the awake, and then THEY get injured/killed...that stays when they return to the real world. This, of course, can be avoided if those being brought in are already asleep as well.

 

Dream places have intrigued me since Wheel of Time. I think that there is something interesting about it but, like with all HERO building projects so easy to get distracted from what the actual game effects are. I'm not quite sure what you intend those to be.

 

So. If there was a dreamscape that the character could go to that would not be accessible by anyone else then, IMO, the game effects are that, when sleeping, the character can shield his mind almost completely. You could do that either through having large mental defences (SFX - gone to dreamworld) or by actually EDM to dreamscape. The problem with the first is that the character defence is not absolute - a strong enough mentalist could break in. The problem with the second is that someone who's mental powers can work transdimensionally will break in. Either of those are acceptable depending on your vision of the dreamscape. You mentioned the time thing - that would be extra - but what does it actually do for you. It would make time penalties on thinking tasks less - you could do three times as much preparation than normal. You might take skill levels, only to offset time penalties for that.

 

The next question is that of other people. When you are on your own, the physicality of the dreamscape is a moot point. No-one else is affected. When you can take others lots of things become an issue.

 

The first is the space. How much control would you have over the landscape etc? If you are imposing that on other people then you might simply be using mental illusions or you might be moving them to your mental space. Do their bodies remain at home? Do they take damage physically if they take damage in the dreamscape? All good questions. Can they leave voluntarily? Can they be taken there involuntarily?

 

From what I can see, you want some of that to be different depending on whether the person is awake or asleep when they make the transition.

 

I think I would be tempted along the mental defence, mental illusions route. It is much simpler to sort things out. You _can_ damage people with mental illusions (or you could in 5th - have not read 6th mental powers) and it is pretty much up to the person in control. Also changes to the fabric become simply matters of managing the player/illusion interface.

 

The question is pretty much over the consent issue. If people can leave by struggling then this is not a problem. If they cannot, then you need to be going down the EDM route which makes the differences between awake and asleep more difficult. If you have moved the person to the alternate dimension how do you, in game terms, differentiate between real and dream damage. The duplication idea is interesting, if I have read it correctly, you could transform a duplication power onto another other person in which you control activation of the duplication (usable as an attack) and the duplicate appears in the dreamscape as default (part of the build). If the person is awake then there is a damage leak, if not there is none. Complex build but duplication does some of the heavy lifting...

 

Doc

[Christopher]

Re: My dreamscape within a dream

 

You _can_ damage people with mental illusions (or you could in 5th - have not read 6th mental powers)

Rules for that are in the APG.

 

The duplication idea is interesting' date=' if I have read it correctly, you could transform a duplication power onto another other person in which you control activation of the duplication (usable as an attack)[/quote']

I understood it as following:

He can invite people (Naked UOO for the Duplication Power, Transdimensional togehter with Transdimensional Mind Scan/Targetting Sense), who also only pop up as Dream Projection.

The space itself is a form of base. Of course you can't store your Stuff in it, but being near/in the dream space could give you access to informations.

One plus of duplication is, that your real body still recieves it's full rest.

 

About the "My Mind is someplace else, so you can't atack it": It think this could be part of the Projection-Desolidification from APG, but I have to look that up. Having this could give the base a Game Utility (you just send the mind of somebody there so the enemy mentalist can't attack it).

[Ragitsu]

Re: My dreamscape within a dream

 

You mentioned the time thing - that would be extra - but what does it actually do for you. It would make time penalties on thinking tasks less - you could do three times as much preparation than normal. You might take skill levels' date=' only to offset time penalties for that.[/quote']

 

The extra time afforded in the dreamscape means that anyone inside has that much more time to do whatever they want there as compared to the real world. Plans can be made without fear of spying, conversations or meetings can had, the dreamscape can be further expanded, etc.

 

The first is the space. How much control would you have over the landscape etc?

 

Total control, but only for the purposes of creating/editing specific elements at a time. I can see the PC creating, say, half an acre to one acre at a time per "dreaming roll". Of course, time is limited, so they have to decide between making the pocket dimension bigger, or doing other things they'd normally do.

 

If you are imposing that on other people then you might simply be using mental illusions or you might be moving them to your mental space.

 

Really, it's neither: it's an actual physical pocket dimension that's accessible only via the one dreamer, or, as mentioned, to those with exotic/rare means of doing so (basically, enemy invasion would be a once in a blue moon type deal)

 

Do their bodies remain at home?

 

If they were brought in while THEY were dreaming, yes. If they were brought in while awake, their actual bodies are brought in.

 

Do they take damage physically if they take damage in the dreamscape?

 

Only if their "awake" bodies are there.

 

Can they leave voluntarily?

 

Yes.

 

Can they be taken there involuntarily?

 

No.

 

From what I can see' date=' you want some of that to be different depending on whether the person is awake or asleep when they make the transition.[/quote']

 

Yeah, that's right.

 

I think I would be tempted along the mental defence' date=' mental illusions route. It is much simpler to sort things out. You _can_ damage people with mental illusions (or you could in 5th - have not read 6th mental powers) and it is pretty much up to the person in control. Also changes to the fabric become simply matters of managing the player/illusion interface.[/quote']

 

Do the above rule options work with an actual dimension?

 

The question is pretty much over the consent issue. If people can leave by struggling then this is not a problem. If they cannot' date=' then you need to be going down the EDM route which makes the differences between awake and asleep more difficult. If you have moved the person to the alternate dimension how do you, in game terms, differentiate between real and dream damage. The duplication idea is interesting, if I have read it correctly, you could transform a duplication power onto another other person in which you control activation of the duplication (usable as an attack) and the duplicate appears in the dreamscape as default (part of the build). If the person is awake then there is a damage leak, if not there is none. Complex build but duplication does some of the heavy lifting...[/quote']

 

Though, now, you've made me consider that the dreamscape creator can perhaps make an EGO roll to keep someone in their dreamscape. I imagine that if this were the case, that keeping in multiple people would be more mentally/spiritually taxing.

 

Doc

 

Thank you for posting!

[Ragitsu]

Re: My dreamscape within a dream

 

The main issue here is that one has to decide how "Dreamscapes" work in their campaign setting.

 

In a game where any mentalist or mystic with Telepathy, mind link and Mind Scan can enter a persons dreams, I balk at requiring EDM to represent a personal dreamscape unless this represents a Dreamscape that is under complete control of the dreamer to the point that any Dreamnaughts could get caught within it and at the mercy of the dreamer.

 

That's pretty much what I had in mind, maybe sans "mercy of the dreamer" (as anyone coming in has to do so voluntarily).

[Christopher]

Re: My dreamscape within a dream

 

As I understood it being transfered physically causes damage. So a simple EDM with Side Effect (always occurs; Apropirate amount of Damage) that is given via UOO.

For the voluntary transfer while dreamign you just have to give the power you use to get there to someone via UOO (maybe naked advantage).

Don't forget that they need to be Transdimensional and you need a way to detect them trough dimensions (Clairsentience, Trandimensional is the right way I think).

 

I looked up Projection-Desolidification, but it has to take Feedback Limitation so the damage would transit in both directions.

[Ragitsu]

Re: My dreamscape within a dream

 

As I understood it being transfered physically causes damage. So a simple EDM with Side Effect (always occurs; Apropirate amount of Damage) that is given via UOO.

For the voluntary transfer while dreamign you just have to give the power you use to get there to someone via UOO (maybe naked advantage).

Don't forget that they need to be Transdimensional and you need a way to detect them trough dimensions (Clairsentience, Trandimensional is the right way I think).

 

I looked up Projection-Desolidification, but it has to take Feedback Limitation so the damage would transit in both directions.

 

The only way injuries can be inflicted is if you are in the dreamscape with your real body, and are damaged there. Being transferred does not cause damage.

[Christopher]

Re: My dreamscape within a dream

 

The only way injuries can be inflicted is if you are in the dreamscape with your real body' date=' and are damaged there. Being transferred does [i']not[/i] cause damage.

So he can invite anybody to get there physically or as dreamform (but only while he is there), but can himself only enter via dreaming?

[Ragitsu]

Re: My dreamscape within a dream

 

So he can invite anybody to get there physically or as dreamform (but only while he is there)' date=' but can himself only enter via dreaming?[/quote']

 

That's right.

[Christopher]

Re: My dreamscape within a dream

 

That's right.

Hmm...when he basically playing Inbound teleporter, there could be a way to give him the powers without him having to pay for it:

Make them part of the Bases Powers, but Limited that they can only used by him. required Roll (Dreaming) could be usefull here.

 

Also when people can travel to the realm physically, where do they get when they leave? Where they came from? Or do they have free choice of target?

 

When you have that book, take a look into Champions 6E page 236 (the Space Base). It has a expensive "Location" Power, wich basically means "it's very difficulty to break in". And the team teleporter could be adopted to build the Invite/go back functionality (but it may be useable by anyone).