Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

[Thanee]

I have a question regarding the Storm of Steel Talent from Fantasy Hero (or "Naked Advantages" in general).

 

Is the limit here only the HKA itself?

 

i.e. if I actually have a HKA 4d6 power, can I use this and still gain the benefits from...

 

- Strength

- Combat Levels

- Maneuvers

- Extra Damage Classes (Martial Arts)

- Talents (i.e. Weapon Master)

 

?

 

Bye

Thanee

[Thanee]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

And another, related question...

 

Storm of Steel has an Endurance cost.

The Attack used with it has an Endurance cost (i.e. for the applied Strength).

 

When I attack using this Talent, do I pay the Endurance for Storm of Steel (once) plus the Endurance for the Attack I use (multiplied by the number of Autofire Attacks I want to make)? Is that the right way?

 

Bye

Thanee

[Christopher]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

I can only answer for Naked Advantages in general and will asume Storm of Steel is a Naked Autofire with no additional Limitations (Fantasy Hero Talents might have limtiations/advanatges I am unaware of). I do not have the book.

 

Yes, you can add damage classes normally (no matter what the source*). Of course, the adding is done at the progression for the now advantaged attack.

When you have a 2d6 KA (12 DC) and Add +1/2 Autofire Naked Advantage, the attack is regarded a 2d6 KA, Autofire 5 Shots (18 DC) and adding 3 DC only results in 2 1/2 d6 KA, AF 5 (21 DC).

Depending on genre, house rules and whever usign a real weapon DC adding is capped to only twice the normal Weapon DC.

 

If you can use this with a HKA 4d6 (12 DC), depends only on the question if the Naked Advantage was bought for that many DC/AP of the attack.

 

Using a Naked Advantage always cost endurance (unless it has Reduced Endurance), so yes:

You pay once for Storm of Steel and normally for each attack (the first attack might be partially paid for already, depending on STR used this turn).

 

You can combine naked Advantages, by applying them one after another but each additional Advantage has to cover the Increased DC of the previous ones too.

 

One thing of Importance is reduced Endurance with Naked Autofire Advantage:

If the attack or STR in question has a Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), this affects the Autofire not at all)

If attack or STR has Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), that only works as 1/2 END for each shot.

[Christopher]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

Okay, I just noticed a possible Problem. Since the example Weapons on 6E2 204 are only build with the +1/2 Version of reduced Endurance, they would technically cost half Endurance for thier AP for each Autofire Attack in Addition the the Talent and the STR used.

I am not certain if this was intended or just a Error while wirting them down (you can buy the +1 Version on Single Fire Attacks, so they cost nothign even with Autofire) or if this is intentinal so I asked Steve Long:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/86503-Naked-Autofire-Advantage-and-Example-Weapons-from-6E2-204

[Thanee]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

I can only answer for Naked Advantages in general and will asume Storm of Steel is a Naked Autofire with no additional Limitations (Fantasy Hero Talents might have limtiations/advanatges I am unaware of). I do not have the book.

 

It took me a while to figure out, what Storm of Steel actually is, when I first read it (a while ago)... it doesn't exactly say that it is a "Naked Advantage", but it could be deduced from the cost and the description.

 

It is simply a Naked Autofire (5) for up to 4d6 of HKA with OIF and Requires Skill Roll.

 

Yes, you can add damage classes normally (no matter what the source*). Of course, the adding is done at the progression for the now advantaged attack.

When you have a 2d6 KA (12 DC) and Add +1/2 Autofire Naked Advantage, the attack is regarded a 2d6 KA, Autofire 5 Shots (18 DC) and adding 3 DC only results in 2 1/2 d6 KA, AF 5 (21 DC).

Depending on genre, house rules and whever usign a real weapon DC adding is capped to only twice the normal Weapon DC.

 

I see, so with a +1/2 Naked Advantage, you gain extra DCs from other sources at a 2:3 ratio. Makes sense.

 

EDIT: Ah, yes. Found the table in 6E2.

 

I suppose this also applies to using regular weapons "out of the box", because they are built with the Reduced Endurance +1/2 Advantage, then, right?

 

And it also means, that a 2d6 HKA Axe, for example, already applies as a 3d6 HKA (or 45 Active Points in total) against the limit of the Naked Advantage (which is 4d6 or 60 Active Points total for Storm of Steel). So, even if there was a 4d6 HKA weapon, you couldn't use it with Storm of Steel, because it would be more than 60 in Active Points.

 

Using a Naked Advantage always cost endurance (unless it has Reduced Endurance), so yes:

You pay once for Storm of Steel and normally for each attack (the first attack might be partially paid for already, depending on STR used this turn).

 

That "STR used this turn" part gets me thinking... do you only pay ONCE per turn (or rather phase) to use your Strength?

 

i.e. if I use a weapon (equipment) with 2d6 HKA, 0 END cost and a 15 STR Min, so I have to use my 15 Strength (3 END as it is a heroic campaign)... and if I then use Storm of Steel (making 3 Autofire Attacks), do I only pay 3 END for my Strength (once) and the 3 for Storm of Steel (once)? So 6 END total?

 

That is, assuming for now, the weapon does not cost any END to use even with Storm of Steel (the potential problem you listed above).

 

Or do I have to pay for my Strength for each attack (and therefore 12 END total)?

 

EDIT: Just looked into the Endurance rules, and it does say "per phase", so the 6 END seems to be correct. That makes this Talent a lot more useful than I thought (because END is much less of a limitation).

 

You can combine naked Advantages, by applying them one after another but each additional Advantage has to cover the Increased DC of the previous ones too.

 

I don't think that will come into play.

 

One thing of Importance is reduced Endurance with Naked Autofire Advantage:

If the attack or STR in question has a Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), this affects the Autofire not at all)

If attack or STR has Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), that only works as 1/2 END for each shot.

 

That makes sense, considering, Reduced Endurance is twice as expensive, normally, when combined with Autofire. So here it is only half as effective.

 

Bye

Thanee

[Christopher]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

Wait, STR use and Autofire/Multiattack carries soem special Rules:

See 6E1 41, right Side.

You still have to pay the STR for each attack with Multiattack or Autofire, making such a Maneuver exhausting.

But when you use casual STR (to break a grab) and Hit somebody with a Single Attack in the same phase you only pay the endurance for the higher amount of STR used - not once for the casual use, once for the attack.

[Thanee]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

Aha, ok. Too bad (but probably fair enough).

 

Bye

Thanee

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

I have a question regarding the Storm of Steel Talent from Fantasy Hero (or "Naked Advantages" in general).

 

Is the limit here only the HKA itself?

 

Technically no. If you have STR, Skill Levels, Martial Arts, you can boost the damage level into the stratosphere. Unless your GM has limited the damage or implemented absolute damage caps. In my games I go by the old 5th edition (and previous) rule about HKA's and Hand Attacks not being able to do more than double their base Damage Class.

 

i.e. if I actually have a HKA 4d6 power, can I use this and still gain the benefits from...

 

- Strength

Yes

 

- Combat Levels

Yes

 

- Maneuvers

Yes

 

- Extra Damage Classes (Martial Arts)

Yes

 

- Talents (i.e. Weapon Master)

Yes with limits. This will depend on the specific Talent and how it is built. Deadly Blow will in general stack with other talents that fit within the purview of the Deadly Blow Talent (for example a Dragon Slayer Deadly Blow Talent that adds +1D6K to killing damage when attacking dragons would add to the Storm of Steel Talent as well as the basic weapon damage. Some GM's (many GM's?) will likely limit this heavily. In any case, the increase in END cost will make it so that such a technique could only be done once in a combat encounter before completely exhausting the character performing the technique.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

Based on the comments on 6e1 p 314, the Reduced Endurance on the base power is not altered by the Naked Advantage. This seems reasonably consistent with the fact the Naked Advantage still costs END itself, but is very advantageous for a Naked Autofire advantage. Applying Naked Autofire to attacks without standard to hit rolls and/or targeting exotic defenses would also seem very advantageous compared to buying the advantage outright.

 

As to the damage adds, I see no reason a power with a Naked Advantage should function any differently than one which has the advantage normally. Damage Classes should be determined after applying the Naked Advantage, as well as all the other DC-affecting advantages the attack may have. So, if I have a 2d6 HKA (assuming no STR min for simplicity), plus Naked Advantage - Autofire, 3 shots, and I can add, say, four damage classes, that's a 3d6+1 HKA, or a 3d6 Autofire HKA (since 4 DC's add 1d6 KA if it has a +1/4 advantage per the table on 6e2 p 101).

 

If I had purchased a 2d6 Autofire HKA, I would add the same 1d6 from 4 DC's, so the ultimate damage is no different.

[Thanee]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

Based on the comments on 6e1 p 314' date=' the Reduced Endurance on the base power is not altered by the Naked Advantage. This seems reasonably consistent with the fact the Naked Advantage still costs END itself, but is very advantageous for a Naked Autofire advantage. Applying Naked Autofire to attacks without standard to hit rolls and/or targeting exotic defenses would also seem very advantageous compared to buying the advantage outright.[/quote']

 

TBH, I think that Naked Advantages in general are pretty advantageous already. It seems just plain better than putting them on the powers directly to me.

 

As to the damage adds, I see no reason a power with a Naked Advantage should function any differently than one which has the advantage normally. Damage Classes should be determined after applying the Naked Advantage, as well as all the other DC-affecting advantages the attack may have. So, if I have a 2d6 HKA (assuming no STR min for simplicity), plus Naked Advantage - Autofire, 3 shots, and I can add, say, four damage classes, that's a 3d6+1 HKA, or a 3d6 Autofire HKA (since 4 DC's add 1d6 KA if it has a +1/4 advantage per the table on 6e2 p 101).

 

If I had purchased a 2d6 Autofire HKA, I would add the same 1d6 from 4 DC's, so the ultimate damage is no different.

 

Agreed.

 

Bye

Thanee

[Christopher]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

Based on the comments on 6e1 p 314' date=' the Reduced Endurance on the base power is not altered by the Naked Advantage.[/quote']

Yes it does, based on a question I asked Steve Long explicitly and APG 141 says the same (even if it only notices it in chase of Autofire from Variable Advantage).

You can't circumvent the higher cost for Autofire-Reduced Endurance with a Naked or Variable Advantage.

 

Unless your GM has limited the damage or implemented absolute damage caps. In my games I go by the old 5th edition (and previous) rule about HKA's and Hand Attacks not being able to do more than double their base Damage Class.

The "Nor more than Double DC" is in effect for anything with the Real Weapon Limitation. You can increase it beyond the doubling point, but then the Weapon takes the Damage itself (6E2 201).

 

TBH' date=' I think that Naked Advantages in general are pretty advantageous already. It seems just plain better than putting them on the powers directly to me.[/quote']

I think naked Advantages a "Cousins" of Frameworks. Both a Naked Advantage and a Multipower allow you to have differently Advantaged Versions of one and the same Attack/Movement Power.

Naked Advantages tend to be more expensive then Multipowers and cost Endurance, where in Multipowers each Advantage is still Mandatory, you can't mix and match Advantages and your options in a Multiattack are more Limited.

[Thanee]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

Yes it does' date=' based on a question I asked Steve Long explicitly and APG 141 says the same (even if it only notices it in chase of Autofire from Variable Advantage).[/quote']

 

Hmm... I do think that the Variable Advantage case (where the Advantage is still applied to the Power directly) is not quite the same as the Naked Advantage case (Power and Advantage are two seperate entities).

 

Especially (points and rules aside) in the context with actual weapons (equipment; real weapon) it really makes no sense at all, that there is an END cost for the attack (apart from applying one's Strength).

 

Why should I pay END for my Sword?

 

I would definitely be interesting to see what Steve replies to your question.

 

Bye

Thanee

[Christopher]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

Hmm... I do think that the Variable Advantage case (where the Advantage is still applied to the Power directly) is not quite the same as the Naked Advantage case (Power and Advantage are two seperate entities).

 

Especially (points and rules aside) in the context with actual weapons (equipment; real weapon) it really makes no sense at all, that there is an END cost for the attack (apart from applying one's Strength).

 

Why should I pay END for my Sword?

As someone who already held a used a sword: Getting it in postition for anotehr attack can be tiresome, especially when you attack a lot faster than normal (read: autofire).

Normally you use the weight of the sword/club/greatsword to your advantage but trying to do more than 1 tiems damage with one attack would need you to actually work against it instead of workign with it.

Or it could just be game-balance, so it is not getting to much better than Multiattack.

 

A naked Autofire Advantage on Firearms with charges does not suffer this, as the charges a a specail kind of reduced endurance with a specific reaction to Autofire (just one charge per Attack; and the normal charges are capped at a +1 Advantage - Autofire 0 END).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

Yes it does' date=' based on a question I asked Steve Long explicitly and APG 141 says the same (even if it only notices it in chase of Autofire from Variable Advantage).[/quote']

 

Funny... I don't see Steve's reply as I type this, although he looks to be answering the Rules Questions posts right now. Hopefully, he'll get to that question before I finish this post. [Not yet...maybe he's saving that one for last as it is a very good question...oh well, maybe later]

 

You can't circumvent the higher cost for Autofire-Reduced Endurance with a Naked or Variable Advantage.

 

Page cite that specifically discusses naked, not variable, advantages, please.

 

BTW, I like your analogy of Naked Advantages to Frameworks (which is also consistent with the inability to put a Naked Advantage in a Framework). I typically see Naked Advantages used to enhance equipment that the character doesn't pay points for, though.

 

As someone who already held a used a sword: Getting it in postition for anotehr attack can be tiresome' date=' especially when you attack a lot faster than normal (read: autofire).[/quote']

 

That could just as easily be considered the impact of paying END for the STR minimum, plus any STR used to enhance damage, once for each attack, without the HKA of the Sword costing END.

 

A naked Autofire Advantage on Firearms with charges does not suffer this' date=' as the charges a a specail kind of reduced endurance with a specific reaction to Autofire (just one charge per Attack; and the normal charges are capped at a +1 Advantage - Autofire 0 END).[/quote']

 

True, that - charges have their own limitation as far as Autofire goes, and there's no increase to its cost to make it Autofire other than the cost of Autofire itself.

 

I'm a proponent of de-linking charges and 0 END myself. It seems unfair when a power that costs 0 END by default gets the same limitation, without this implicit advantage. As well, there is no reason 500 charges should cost +1 on a non-autofire attack when unlimited uses at 0 END would cost +1/2. But that's a different topic.

[Christopher]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

Funny... I don't see Steve's reply as I type this' date=' although he looks to be answering the Rules Questions posts right now. Hopefully, he'll get to that question before I finish this post. [Not yet...maybe he's saving that one for last as it is a very good question...oh well, maybe later']

[...]

Page cite that specifically discusses naked, not variable, advantages, please.

I was refering to this older question:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/85511-Autofire-Questions

 

The more Recent Question is about the Ruling above, Autofire and the +1/2 Reduced Endurance on the example Weapons:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/86503-Naked-Autofire-Advantage-and-Example-Weapons-from-6E2-204

Here he decided to not decide it, so I guess it's a "ups, never noticed that" situation for him.

 

I'm a proponent of de-linking charges and 0 END myself. It seems unfair when a power that costs 0 END by default gets the same limitation' date=' without this implicit advantage. As well, there is no reason 500 charges should cost +1 on a non-autofire attack when unlimited uses at 0 END would cost +1/2. But that's a different topic.[/quote']

Perhaps the reason is, that it would raise questions when this 500 charges single-fire weapon is used with a Naked Autofire Advantage.

Or what the real chance is to encounter a weapon that has 64+ charges and no Autofire....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

I was refering to this older question:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/85511-Autofire-Questions

 

I think the difference is that the older question does not specify whether the naked autofire is used on a power also paid for by the character (where I think Steve's answer makes sense) or to gear the character did not pay points for (which I don't think was considered).

 

The more Recent Question is about the Ruling above, Autofire and the +1/2 Reduced Endurance on the example Weapons:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/86503-Naked-Autofire-Advantage-and-Example-Weapons-from-6E2-204

Here he decided to not decide it, so I guess it's a "ups, never noticed that" situation for him.

 

I think it's a "there is no hard and fast rule so the GM will need to decide" situation. There are a surprising number of these as one plays the game. The GM could decide, for example,:

 

- that the 0 END cost flows through - it's a function of the gear (or even of the Real Weapon limitation, much like Charges grants the 0 END benefit), not any points spent

- that you pay half END when applying Naked Autofire to the gear - if you want to pay no END, also buy a Naked extra +1/2 Reduced END

- that all HTH melee weapons paid the +1 "0 END even if Autofire" advantage and therefore have higher AP for purposes of all Naked Advantages (or only for Autofire Naked Advantages, if you prefer).

 

Perhaps the reason is, that it would raise questions when this 500 charges single-fire weapon is used with a Naked Autofire Advantage.

Or what the real chance is to encounter a weapon that has 64+ charges and no Autofire....

 

So you think Steve thought this situation through in full, but not use of Naked Autofire on a melee weapon?

 

Actually, I think the higher advantage for Charges has been with us longer than Naked Advantages, but I stand to be corrected by someone who wants to go back into the pre-6e editions and find out when the rules changed.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

I usually use 1 End per 5 Str in heroic games, and in that case the End cost of enough Str to meet the Str Min is usually about the same as the cost of the attack anyway (e.g. 3 End for a weapon with a 15 Str Min vs. 3-4 End for a 2-3d6 HKA). So I'd personally consider weapons not to have the Reduced Endurance Advantage when considering the cost of Autofire. That makes it easy. (Personally I've never been fond of the surcharges in any case; I believe it would better be handled through something like multiplicative rather than pseudo-additive Modifiers.)

[Christopher]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

(Personally I've never been fond of the surcharges in any case; I believe it would better be handled through something like multiplicative rather than pseudo-additive Modifiers.)

There is one surcharge for the Naked Advantage, but that is there for every naked Advantage regardless of what power is targeted/affected by it.

The Rest is ("Cost of Attack" + "Cost of STR used") times "Number of Autofire Attacks".

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

There is one surcharge for the Naked Advantage, but that is there for every naked Advantage regardless of what power is targeted/affected by it.

The Rest is ("Cost of Attack" + "Cost of STR used") times "Number of Autofire Attacks".

 

Sorry. I should clarify. When I say "surcharges" I mean things like doubling the cost of Reduced Endurance for powers with Autofire, adding an extra +1 Advantage value for Autofire attacks that do not require a normal attack roll or do not apply against normal defenses, etc.

[Christopher]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

I just stubeled upon a ruling regarding Autofire Naked Advantage in the APP II:

Apparently you have to pay the Endurance for the Attack, the STR used and the Naked Advantage once for each "fired" shot. So when the naked advantage cost 1 END, the attack 3, the STR used 3 and you fire 5 shots:

5x(3+3+1) = 5x7 = 35 Endurance.

[Surgo]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

Sorry to raise an ancient thread from the dead, but I have a similar question to the OP and I'm not entirely clear on the answer -- and there's conflicting responses within this very thread (Christopher and NuSoardGraphite). Specifically, the following question from the OP: If you already have an HKA 4d6 power, and you use the naked advantage, can you then further add DCs from STR, martial arts, etc., and have them affected by the Autofire naked advantage? It says on 6E2 102 that if you have a naked advantage for an attack you'd need to buy it powerful enough to cover the whole attack, but I'm not clear if it refers to naked advantages for a specific power or -all- naked advantages. I suspect it's the latter, and NuSoardGraphite is incorrect -- but I'd just like to be clear.

 

Similarly, the books all use the phrase "up to HKA 4d6/HA 12d6". Is this just a convenient shorthand for "up to 60 active points", or does it actually mean HKA 4d6/HA 12d6? I ask because if I have, say, an Armor Piercing power, the "up to HKA 4d6/HA 12d6" is no longer accurate if it actually means the latter instead of the former.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

As I understand it, the Naked Advantage is added first. You then add Damage Classes from other sources, just like you would with any other Advantaged Attack Power. Remember that the other sources won't add as many dice because of the Advantage. There's a chart in the back of 6e1 (after the Index) for figuring out how many dice you will get.

[Christopher]

Re: Fantasy Hero - Talents - Storm of Steel (for up to HKA 4d6)

 

I can only repeat how I understand it:

The first step in adding DC is to figure out what the "base attack" is. 6E2 99 has the most detailed description of this.

You apply the Naked Advantage to this base attack (base power). The base attack + advantages becomes from then on the base attaack for purposes of adding damage.

So with a naked advantage you could potentially raise the overall damage cap.

 

APG I 132 then also says (about Naked Advantages and attack powers):

"The standard Adding Damage rules would then apply to the Advantaged ability."