Bartman Posted October 20, 2003 Report Share Posted October 20, 2003 Originally posted by SSJ Archon Those numbers are old, and I don't remember where i got them. Though, there is no reason a nuclear weapon couldn't do that. The upper limit for nuclear fission is around 600 Megatons, and for Fusion its about 2 Gigatons. I'm getting my major in nuclear physics, so i'm pretty sure on those. Thank you for correcting my old numbers, (though I do remember them building more powerful weapons, not nessesarily testing them.) What is possible and what is practical are two very different things. And I believe you are right about the theoretical max for each type of weapon. The problem is that such big nukes would be somewhere between the size of a house and an apartment building. They become far to bulky to be usable weapons. Even the Tsar Bomba was too big to be made deliverable. The second problem with really big weapons is that somewhere around 10 Megatons they begin to compress the air so powerfully that a wall of compressed air begins to 'contain' the blast to a limited degree. The weak point in this wall is up (lower natural atomospheric preasure). So with larger blasts there is a natural tendency to direct much of their power up and away from the target. So you get a situation where two 5 Mt warheads are better than one 10 Mt warhead. Antimatter is the wave of the future when is comes to big bombs, though they're not really needed anymore. Eventually maybe. But unless something has happend I haven't heard about, it still takes a month to make 10 atoms of the stuff. And we still have no way to store it. So it is likely a century or more away as a viable weapon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Anomaly Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 Originally posted by Bartman But unless something has happend I haven't heard about, it still takes a month to make 10 atoms of the stuff. And we still have no way to store it. So it is likely a century or more away as a viable weapon. Fermilab produces antiprotons (basically an ionized anti-hydrogen nucleus) in medium-energy collisions of protons with a lithium target at the rate of 50 billion antiprotons per hour!. The antiprotons so produced are stored in the Antiproton Source Containment Area (a circular magnetic confinement torus) until needed for high-energy experiments in the Tevatron collider. The cost? Taking average Fermilab operating expenses into account, it cost about $1.00 (yes, just one dollar) per 6 million antiprotons produced. Now it does indeed take more effort to make atoms of anti-hydrogn, and you can't keep hold of them, since these atoms are electrically neutral and not readily subject to magnetic confinement...meaning that once atoms are produced, they tend to leave the confinement ring and annihilate with ordinary matter. Clearly working with ionized anti-nuclei is much easier, and also much less expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 Cool! I didn't know that. I guess I have fallen behind, my last physics class was about 10 years ago. Of course even at 6 million anti-protons per dollar it would take $100 quadrillion to make a full gram of anti-protons. and $10 quintillion to make enough to have a single 1Mt warhead. So I think good old fusion and fission warheads are going to remain more cost effective for some time yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorpCommander Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 Originally posted by Bartman Of course even at 6 million anti-protons per dollar it would take $100 quadrillion to make a full gram of anti-protons. and $10 quintillion to make enough to have a single 1Mt warhead. Don't forget, those prices are at full retail. When you buy in such large quantities and present your Sam's Club membership card you can get some pretty big discounts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Anomaly Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 If the mass of $1.00 worth of antiprotons (at these rates) were converted completely into usable energy, it would net us 1/1000 of a joule -- enough to heat 1/4 of a gram of water by 1/1000 of a degree C. This means it would cost more than the current U.S. government's annual budget to generate enough energy this way to light a 60-watt light bulb. Yeah, though we can produce antimatter at will these days, and though antimatter is the most destructive substance known, the trivial quantities produced do indeed mean that good ol' fission & fusion will remain much more practical for weapons for some time to come, barring a massive breakthrough of some kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkling Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 "The nucleus of the sun where atomic structure begins to break down" Sounds like a transform or X-Dim movement doesn't it? Perhaps the nucleus of the sun needs a transform that slowly vaporizes the character...how many supers show up at the sun with over 20 Power Defense? Or, perhaps a Drain against energy defense listedout as "atomic destabilization" or "bond saturation" ... now vehicles and objects are far more vulnerable than the heroes... Extra Dim movement and Summon are rapidly becoming the most often used powers in the event of a modelling breakdown...I am leading the one man campaign to avoid their use in those cirmumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by Farkling "The nucleus of the sun where atomic structure begins to break down" Sounds like a transform or X-Dim movement doesn't it? Perhaps the nucleus of the sun needs a transform that slowly vaporizes the character...how many supers show up at the sun with over 20 Power Defense? Or, perhaps a Drain against energy defense listedout as "atomic destabilization" or "bond saturation" ... now vehicles and objects are far more vulnerable than the heroes... Extra Dim movement and Summon are rapidly becoming the most often used powers in the event of a modelling breakdown...I am leading the one man campaign to avoid their use in those cirmumstances. I'm telling you its all SFX. Supes Player: The Sun shouldn't hurt me! Alarmed GM: Why not?! Supes Player: Because its my SFX! Irritated GM: What SFX would that be, exactly? Smug Supes Player: I'm SUPER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 Originally posted by D-Man Smug Supes Player: I'm SUPER. Today on Affirmations: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSJ Archon Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 Why would a nuke have to be so large? If you compress the uranium/plutonium, you can get a smaller volume. Of course, you'll have to keep it very cold or it will go nuclear all by itself. Using liquid helium, you could build a really powerful weapon. You can also use a mirrior trap to store the energy needed for detonation, so you won't need any bulky lasers. Of course with a mirrior trap and liquid He, your bomb will not have a very long shelf life, but hey. Boom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 Originally posted by SSJ Archon Why would a nuke have to be so large? If you compress the uranium/plutonium, you can get a smaller volume. Of course, you'll have to keep it very cold or it will go nuclear all by itself. Using liquid helium, you could build a really powerful weapon. You can also use a mirrior trap to store the energy needed for detonation, so you won't need any bulky lasers. Of course with a mirrior trap and liquid He, your bomb will not have a very long shelf life, but hey. Boom. I think you just answered your own question. Such a construction is innately unstable, and rather more costly than more conventional nukes. A configuration like this is impractical in the extreme for something that will in all likelihood need to sit on the shelf for decades. It is expensive, high maintenance and unsafe. In the long term, given the rate of use for nukes, it seems far more likely that one would cook off and destroy its constructor's territory than it would be actually used against an enemy. In all a weaponizing nation is far better off pursuing an option of more smaller, distributed, low maintenance, stable weapons than a handful of huge, concentrated, high maintenance, unstable ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSJ Archon Posted October 25, 2003 Report Share Posted October 25, 2003 Scott, you just don't get it do yeah? Its a weapon that is built as needed. Like against a super or something. Theres nothing better than watching a super trying to take on an entire nation, let alone the world. Superman: "You can't even hurt me!" Guy at bullhorn: "Oh yeah? FIRE!" All of worlds ICBM's fire off at the correct timing to hit superman all at once. Superman: "Your weapons are useless!" BOOM Guy at bullhorn: "Did I forget to mention they had kryptonite tips?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Originally posted by SSJ Archon Scott, you just don't get it do yeah? Scott? Who the heck is Scott? I can only assume that you are refering to me, as I am the only one responding to you. Let me assure you that I have not in 32+ years of existance ever been known as 'Scott.' Its a weapon that is built as needed. Like against a super or something. Theres nothing better than watching a super trying to take on an entire nation, let alone the world. Well sure a super villian with 'super-science' can do just about anything. However this is the very first time you have mentioned that you were discussing comic book physics rather than real world. So no, I guess I just didn't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSJ Archon Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 lol Scott is a refrence to austin powers. You've got to do things super evil genius style, even if its not practical! A real nation could build it, its just not practical. It's possible though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 This is an amusing forum. I don't think everyone will ever come to an agreement on the sun's damage. Some leave it as a plot device (as I do) and others try to significantly, realistically and mathematically figure out the damage, which I have no problem with either. It's cool seeing figures and equations over my head. In those cases though, reality must be used to at least start the fictional damage or else you don't have a basis to start calculating on. No game system will ever be perfect and Hero Games is not exception. However, it certainly does a pretty good job at covering almost everything. If you want something to do massive gobs of damage (ex. 50d6, 80d6, 976d6, etc), I don't know if this is the game system for it. IMHO, the system can handle your 12d6 EB or 18d6 Haymaker well-enough but starting to throw out 160d6 or 976d6 or whatever for the sun and it's, well, it's needless. I guess what I'm trying to say is that after a certain point, having a power/attack/whatever with gobs of dice simply becomes a plot device. I don't feel like trying to take into account all the real-life aspects of physics because the games are fictional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Posted October 30, 2003 Report Share Posted October 30, 2003 I can take it!!! Well you should have all your answers after the massive onslaught we just endured from our very own sun!!! As for me, I am unscathed;) Those were some awe inspiring pics!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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