Sun's damage

[xanatos]

What whas the reasoning for the very high numbers given in Star Hero for the Sun? (page 100-101) The nucleus inflicts 975d6 Killing damage (plus a ton of advantages) per segment.. Isn't 3000 damage per segment a little too much? Using the tables of TUV (or the ones of FRED) the sun should have around 100 BODY (the Sun has a diameter of 700 million hexes, so a Size of 90). So the Sun shouldn't be able to survive to himself for a segment (the attack doesn't have the Personal Immunity)... And the Sun isn't even the hottest star of the galaxy/universe!

[Bartman]

Yep. If I remember correctly this was heavily discussed in the Star Hero forum when the book came out. It obviously doesn't follow the logrithmic damage chart. After some quick tweaking I think I concluded that it should be something closer to 20d6 Killing with only a couple levels each of penetrating and AP. But outside of galactic champions campaigns it is unlikely to come up anyway.

[Old Man]

I think the idea is that at 20d6 Killing, something might survive...

[Vondy]

Sun = Plot Device

 

Just a theory

[Bartman]

Originally posted by Shadowpup

I think the idea is that at 20d6 Killing, something might survive...

 

And that is a problem why? It is an established point in both the sci-fi genre and comics that some things can and do survive in the sun. Anything that has the 80+ pts of resistant 4x hardened ED, frankly deserves to survive.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Bartman

And that is a problem why? It is an established point in both the sci-fi genre and comics that some things can and do survive in the sun. Anything that has the 80+ pts of resistant 4x hardened ED, frankly deserves to survive.

 

Or:

 

SE: High Pressure

SE: Radiation

SE: Extreme Heat

 

El Cheapo Strikes Again

 

Of course, to get ot the sun you need:

 

1" Flight (constant acceleration + suns gravity, baby)

SE: Vacuum

SE: Cold

LS: Breathing

 

Of course, to get away from the sun you need:

 

a) FTL travel, or...

CE - Gravity Nullification Field, or...

c) enough flight to break the suns gravity

[dugfromthearth]

the sun does not have personal immunity. it is constantly destroying itself - thus we have the solar wind and solar flares. It is literally blowing itself apart every second, but gravity is pulling it back together at the same time.

 

 

As for 20d6k. That does a maximum of 120 body. 70 body on average, but rolls of 90 are not going to be too uncommon. The sun presumably does constant damage, should be 20d6 per segment. So even high damage that is 100 to 1 odds should occur every minute and a half.

 

I don't have star hero to know what they give sci-fi armor ratings. But heavy armor in Fred is Def 19.

 

Even something 3 times as tough as heavy armor at Def 60 would still take 10 body every second, assuming it was hardened.

 

Without enough hardening, the armor would have to be 140 def, 7 times the strength of heavy armor (which would be the difference between plywood and heavy plate) in order to not take dmg on an average roll.

 

You could of course declare something to be that tough, but no substance is.

 

The number seems reasonable.

[xanatos]

Even something 3 times as tough as heavy armor at Def 60 would still take 10 body every second, assuming it was hardened.

You are thinking in a linear fashion... 60 DEF is not 3 times stronger than 20 DEF... It's much much much more!

 

--- Bye

[Armitage]

Originally posted by D-Man

Or:

 

SE: High Pressure

SE: Radiation

SE: Extreme Heat

 

El Cheapo Strikes Again

 

 

The description of Life Support in Hero 5 specifically says that LS: Extreme Heat won't protect you from being dunked in molten lava, so I doubt it would protect you from the Sun either.

[Lord Liaden]

Well, we are talking about the Sun's nucleus here - the hottest, densest region, where even basic sub-atomic particles can't hold together as atoms. I haven't seen a material or being short of Silver-Age Superman who could survive in that environment. The corona and even surface of the Sun would be relatively less hostile, though, and some ships and entities have been portrayed as being able to enter them.

 

With that in mind, and FWIW, the Champions genre book offers a sample power construct for cosmic-level beings, "Standing on the Sun," representing near-total immunity to energy damage:

 

Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75% (total cost: 60 points) and Armor (0 PD/90 ED), Hardened (x2; +1/2) (total cost: 202 points). Total cost: 262 points.

 

Personally I'd expect that much protection for Physical Defense as well to be necessary to counteract the effect of gravity and pressure. Of course, you could just allow a Limited Desolidification and call it a day.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Bartman

And that is a problem why? It is an established point in both the sci-fi genre and comics that some things can and do survive in the sun. Anything that has the 80+ pts of resistant 4x hardened ED, frankly deserves to survive.

Imperial Navy IAV Apocalypse:

25 DEF, +38 DEF Ablative, +20 DEF Hardened, +25 PD/ED Force Field Ablative, +15 PD/ED Force Field. This vehicle has 123 total DEF and has 250 BODY. If you want this vehicle to be destroyed by the sun you need one which does far more damage than just 20d6 RKA, like a nuke, or 25d6 RKA, like a space torpedo.

 

But as D-Man said, the sun is really just a plot device. You are talking about something which can burn my skin from 93 million miles away. So while the damage does seem to be over the top, being in the center of the sun should be over the top, unless you are silver aged Superman.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Monolith

Imperial Navy IAV Apocalypse:

25 DEF, +38 DEF Ablative, +20 DEF Hardened, +25 PD/ED Force Field Ablative, +15 PD/ED Force Field. This vehicle has 123 total DEF and has 250 BODY. If you want this vehicle to be destroyed by the sun you need one which does far more damage than just 20d6 RKA, like a nuke, or 25d6 RKA, like a space torpedo.

 

But as D-Man said, the sun is really just a plot device. You are talking about something which can burn my skin from 93 million miles away. So while the damage does seem to be over the top, being in the center of the sun should be over the top, unless you are silver aged Superman.

I disagree. The game mechanics should allow someone to play a character in a high, high end game (cosmic level) that can do this without resorting to hand waves or ludicrous numbers. The reason I dismissed Gurps and Heroes Unlimited was that they didn't have a reasonable "spread" to play at any level of comic book physics. Throwing out that rediculously high number for the sun is unnecessary and doesn't work for superheroes or space opera. It is a genre gaffe.

 

...and what if I wanted to play someone like a silver-age Superman? (Looks like I would have to ignore a silly ruling in Hero.)

[Bartman]

Originally posted by Monolith

Imperial Navy IAV Apocalypse:

25 DEF, +38 DEF Ablative, +20 DEF Hardened, +25 PD/ED Force Field Ablative, +15 PD/ED Force Field. This vehicle has 123 total DEF and has 250 BODY. If you want this vehicle to be destroyed by the sun you need one which does far more damage than just 20d6 RKA, like a nuke, or 25d6 RKA, like a space torpedo.

 

Um... No you don't. Lets assume that the Apocalypse just appears on surface of the sun. Lets also assume the surface of the sun does 15d6 RKA 2xAP, 2xPenetrating.

 

Segment 12 the Apocalypse takes 15 Body and the ablative defenses drop to a 15- roll. This continues for 17 seconds until the Apocalypse boils away. And if the ablative defenses fail at all during those 17 seconds than it starts taking 22 body per segment which will shorten the prayers of the crew by a few seconds. Now I don't know about you but that seems perfectly adequate to me. After all the Apocalypse is supposed to be a virtually indestructable super tech starcraft. Having it last a turn to a turn and a half on the surface of the sun seems perfectly reasonable to me. Not that it could ever reach the surface as it would be easily destroyed by the constant bombardment on the way in.

 

And all this was done without ignoring the logrithmic base that Hero was founded on.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Bartman

Um... No you don't. Lets assume that the Apocalypse just appears on surface of the sun. Lets also assume the surface of the sun does 15d6 RKA 2xAP, 2xPenetrating.

That's very true, but unfortunately that attack does not have enough range to keep the earth warm, and so we all freeze to death.

 

I have no idea why Steve, which ever one, decided to choose that damage level for the sun. I assume he was just trying to show that you are dealing with the most powerful item in our solar system, and as such should be substantially more powerful than anything Dr. Destroyer could whip up in his lab.

 

Maybe the sun is really just 1 pip rka, MegaScale Range and x3 Penetrating. Who knows. I just know that I happen to like the idea that the sun is all-powerful, but in my games it is just a plot device.

[Arthur]

Because, for all its good points, with FRED they decided to throw out the notion of damage being computable by any relation to real-world physics and just pick numbers out of the air.

 

IMO, this is the only real failing of FRED, and it could be bad.

 

One of HERO's aspects that made it a superior game system was an internal logic. +1 DC means x2 linear damage. A logarithmic scale. It's reflected in the STR lifting chart, and used to be followed quite closely with firearms (I did a lot of research on this about ten years ago, and the +1 DC = x2 KE for guns was adhered to).

 

I get the distinct impression that George MacDonald and his cohorts had a solid grounding in math and physics. They appear to have set out to create a game with an underlying consistent mathematical model. Logarithmic was undoubtedly chosen to cope with the vast power spreads in comic-book stories without huge numbers being necessary (GURPS has the opposite problem: it's a linear system, and large weapons do hundreds or thousands of dice).

 

It seems that DOJ is only somewhat interested in maintaining the integrity of the mathematical model; they seem to be pushing the system more toward the ad hoc "make 'em up" paradigm.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Agent X

I disagree. The game mechanics should allow someone to play a character in a high, high end game (cosmic level) that can do this without resorting to hand waves or ludicrous numbers. The reason I dismissed Gurps and Heroes Unlimited was that they didn't have a reasonable "spread" to play at any level of comic book physics. Throwing out that rediculously high number for the sun is unnecessary and doesn't work for superheroes or space opera. It is a genre gaffe.

 

...and what if I wanted to play someone like a silver-age Superman? (Looks like I would have to ignore a silly ruling in Hero.)

 

Desolidification, Affects Physical (+2), Only To Avoid PD/ED Damage (-1), Not Versus Magic (-1/2). 80 Points.

 

I just became a silver age superman on the cheap. I can be hurt by magic, mental attacks, and cryptonite.

[Zaratustra]

I still don't understand why people complain so much of certain types of damage (falling is the favorite), yet have no problem with their characters taking gunshots and explosions without a flinch. Do your PCs jump off buildings or into stars so frequently that the damage MUST kill them?

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Armitage

The description of Life Support in Hero 5 specifically says that LS: Extreme Heat won't protect you from being dunked in molten lava, so I doubt it would protect you from the Sun either.

 

It would depend on how the GM wanted to handle the SFX and the scenario in question. I don't let Fred dictate my plots to me, or skew my campaigns power levels to ludicrous degrees, or requiring him to purchase once in a lifetime use powers.

 

If I have a superman clone character (80 ST, 40PD/ED Hardened, Resistent, Full Life Support, etc) and I want to run a plot where he has to fly into the sun to accomplish something (yeah, that's going to happen) I should be able to do so without magnifying my power levels by a factor of 4.

 

As such, it would be perfectly reasonable for a GM to throw Fred out the window when it becomes a burden instead of a boon. I know rules lawyer types, fanatical canonites, and anal retentive number crunchers don't like that, but its a well known fact that the bell curve is a fairly fragile at the upper end. No, scratch that, it collapses completely and leads to absurd and unmanagable power constructs.

 

If it were going to happen a lot I might, or I was running a truly silver age game I might require some form of desolidification. Otherwise... in that once in a blue moon scenario, I'd rule the SE Heat did the trick.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by D-Man

Desolidification, Affects Physical (+2), Only To Avoid Damage (-1), Not Versus Magic (-1/2). 80 Points.

 

I just became a silver age superman on the cheap. I can be hurt by magic, mental attacks, and cryptonite.

 

A few mistakes and issues here.

 

1. "Affects Physical" must be applied to your STR and attacks, NOT on the Desolidification itself. Therefore, Silver Age Superman (who can move Earth-size planets) must take the +2 Advantage on his STR of 400 (give or take a hundred). And on his heat vision.

 

2. "Not vs. Magic". IIRC, Desol has to define a reasonably common attack that will still affect him. Therefore, you define it as "Magic" with no cost break. I think.

 

3. What about attacks with the Affects Desolid Advantage? An attack that is designed to hurt a ghost can affect SAS. That seems a bit odd.

 

4. It's "kryptonite".

[Agent X]

Originally posted by D-Man

Desolidification, Affects Physical (+2), Only To Avoid PD/ED Damage (-1), Not Versus Magic (-1/2). 80 Points.

 

I just became a silver age superman on the cheap. I can be hurt by magic, mental attacks, and cryptonite.

That's a poor way to simulate it. Supes can get hurt by more than that and every power that Supes would use to affect those around him would have to be bought with a +2 advantage to simulate this sort of invulnerability. That is not what I want out of a "flexible" system.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Agent X

That's a poor way to simulate it. Supes can get hurt by more than that and every power that Supes would use to affect those around him would have to be bought with a +2 advantage to simulate this sort of invulnerability. That is not what I want out of a "flexible" system.

 

One will note that my actual method for doing so (the one I initially proposed) was that SE Heat would be sufficient due to plot and bell curve considerations (how often are you going to run a game where he flies into the sun, which is a plot device?). Building characters with 140 hardened resistant defenses is possible, but at that point, why bother?

 

To me flexibility comes from the game masters application of the system to the story and not the opposite. The bell curve works great within a certain range and then breaks down. If you don't want to run games with 3,500 point characters you have to come up with an alternative, or begin applying a goodly degree of gamemaster fiat.

 

The "deso only versus damage" might not be affected by an attack purchased as "affects deso" since the SFX isn't that he's desolid, but that he's invulnerable. Unless the "affects deso" attack was defined as "ludicrously poweful punches" or "anti-supes ray" it is reasonable to say it wouldn't affect him. Further, in terms of of "affects physical world" modifier, we're both wrong.

 

My construction was a 4E construction, but the rules say the "only versus damage" limitation wouldn't require "affects physical" at the GMs option (my position is based on reasonable point costs and managable power levels, which presumes the GM will allow a such a construct if its apropos to the genre in question (400 ST comes out at 80d6, which is patently stupid in terms of manageability). You are right about the affected by a reasonable SFX affecting him (and defining it as magic).

 

As such I would build it as such:

 

Desolidification, 0 End, Persistent, Only To Avoid PD/ED Damage (affected by magic) (-1/2): 60 Points.

 

Its broader than what's suggested in Fred SFX wise, but for the silver age genre it works without taking us to ludicrous dice pools and point totals land. It also leaves him open to a number of AVLD, NND and mental attacks, which may or may not hurt him based on his Life Support and non-standard defenses (he probably has PowD, but I don't know about others).

[Arthur]

HERO should not have any "absolute invulnerability" at all. The core of the system is that attacks do points of damage and defenses stop points of damage. The only way to have a defense that would stop any number of points would be if the defense cost an infinite number of points.

 

IOW, it can't be done inside thet set of integers. HERO mechanics exist inside the set of integers.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by D-Man

One will note that my actual method for doing so (the one I initially proposed) was that SE Heat would be sufficient due to plot and bell curve considerations (how often are you going to run a game where he flies into the sun, which is a plot device?). Building characters with 140 hardened resistant defenses is possible, but at that point, why bother?

 

To me flexibility comes from the game masters application of the system to the story and not the opposite. The bell curve works great within a certain range and then breaks down. If you don't want to run games with 3,500 point characters you have to come up with an alternative, or begin applying a goodly degree of gamemaster fiat.

 

The "deso only versus damage" might not be affected by an attack purchased as "affects deso" since the SFX isn't that he's desolid, but that he's invulnerable. Unless the "affects deso" attack was defined as "ludicrously poweful punches" or "anti-supes ray" it is reasonable to say it wouldn't affect him. Further, in terms of of "affects physical world" modifier, we're both wrong.

 

My construction was a 4E construction, but the rules say the "only versus damage" limitation wouldn't require "affects physical" at the GMs option (my position is based on reasonable point costs and managable power levels, which presumes the GM will allow a such a construct if its apropos to the genre in question (400 ST comes out at 80d6, which is patently stupid in terms of manageability). You are right about the affected by a reasonable SFX affecting him (and defining it as magic).

 

As such I would build it as such:

 

Desolidification, 0 End, Persistent, Only To Avoid PD/ED Damage (affected by magic) (-1/2): 60 Points.

 

Its broader than what's suggested in Fred SFX wise, but for the silver age genre it works without taking us to ludicrous dice pools and point totals land. It also leaves him open to a number of AVLD, NND and mental attacks, which may or may not hurt him based on his Life Support and non-standard defenses (he probably has PowD, but I don't know about others).

I understood your take on it concerning life support. I just think there is little reason to defend the dice given the sun. I don't think there is a need to fall back on life support and I don't think there is a need to come up with a contrived desolid. Supes, in my conversions, has about 70 PD/70 ED fully resistant and double hardened. He also has solar absorption (w/serious limitations) funneling into his defenses. The Sun should make him feel reeeal good. A 20d6 RKA sun armor piercing/penetrating seems plenty nasty to me. I'd have to look at the math but I doubt it should go over 30d6 RKA.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Agent X

I understood your take on it concerning life support. I just think there is little reason to defend the dice given the sun. I don't think there is a need to fall back on life support and I don't think there is a need to come up with a contrived desolid. Supes, in my conversions, has about 70 PD/70 ED fully resistant and double hardened. He also has solar absorption (w/serious limitations) funneling into his defenses. The Sun should make him feel reeeal good. A 20d6 RKA sun armor piercing/penetrating seems plenty nasty to me. I'd have to look at the math but I doubt it should go over 30d6 RKA.

 

Thats the problem with doing straight conversions to a system built on a bell curve. It creates unmanagable characters with things like 70PD/ED and 80d6 punches that render the system unweildy at best, and unworkable at worst.

 

The difference we have is a philosophical one. I would rather do an abstract conversion and "contrive" a managable defense that keeps the character in a reasonable zone than break the curve. Its Hero's one big weakness - you have to hand wave and declare plot device to make the upper end of the scale work. If contrivance simplifies my life and saves me a headache (and time) I'm all for it.

 

Personally - superman shouldn't have to go past 40 PD/ED to be properly simulated (though most gamers I've met build higher powered versions of published characters than I do). You consider my solution contrived, I consider yours hard to justify from the bell curve perspective. Fortuanately we don't have to be in eachothers games. Thats the beauty of it. Its a matter of preference.

 

Personally, I'd just hand wave it and declare the sun to be a plot device (I'm usually shocked when people come up with write ups for these things anyways - they actually have time?). Life's to short.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by D-Man

Thats the problem with doing straight conversions to a system built on a bell curve. It creates unmanagable characters with things like 70PD/ED and 80d6 punches that render the system unweildy at best, and unworkable at worst.

 

The difference we have is a philosophical one. I would rather do an abstract conversion and "contrive" a managable defense that keeps the character in a reasonable zone than break the curve. Its Hero's one big weakness - you have to hand wave and plot device to make the upper end of the scale work. I've always found it problematic. If contrivance simplifies my life and saves me a headache (and time) I'm all for it.

 

Personally - superman shouldn't have to go past 40 PD/ED. You consider my solution contrived, I consider yours unrealistic from a mechanical perspective. Fortuanately we don't have to be in eachothers games. Thats the beauty of it. Its a matter of preference.

Funny, with all the weaknesses Supes has it really shouldn't be a problem for him to have such high defenses. Magic Guy in a Cosmic Level Campaign faces off an enraged Supes affected by red kryptonite (or whichever color made him go evil). Magic Guy has an 18d6 Bolt of Blastigon that strikes Supes. Supes is x2 vulnerable to magic. The Bolt of Blastigon rolls a little higher than average doing 20 body and 68 stun. To Supes that is 40 body and 136 stun. Supes is going to take 66 stun which will knock him down substantially and even daze him. Of course, my Supes has a 10 speed but he can take stun, get dazed, etc.

 

But what if Supes isn't facing a Magic Guy? Then he might be facing Unified Field Dude who can throw virtually any form of energy. He's studied up on Supes and since Supes has a reputation 14- extreme he knows Supes has problems with red solar radiation and throws that at him. Same basic scenario.

 

Then there's the guy who found a green rock and gets creative with it...

 

Then there's Mental Woman. Supes has a load of stun but based on what I've seen in comics I would say his formidable mental defenses are no match for his physical defenses. He gets a vulnerability to ego attacks x2 vs. stun. She's probably got a shot at doing some damage to him if she's built on 700 points. (I like to give that particular vulnerability to lots of bricks that don't have a reason to be particularly more resilient versus mentall attacks.)

 

Can Supes be beaten? Yes. Is Supes likely to be beaten? No.

He's Superman fer cryin' out loud!

 

Now, if you're Yellow Sunburst Man whose powers are completely physical and definitely not magical you are definitely going to have a problem with Supes. Oh well.