Multigrab on automaton

[IKerensky]

Hi,

 

my heroes magnetic manipulator use his STR-40 telekinesis to grab 2 combat robot and to make them collide in mid-air. I made him use a multiple attack for the 2 grab, and calculate the damage taken by each robot to be 8D6 normal.

 

Was it ok with the rules ? the thing is that with the robot STUN immunity and 8 rPD there is basically no way he can damage them. Did I forgot something ?

[Christopher]

Re: Multigrab on automaton

 

That sounds like an example of "Squezing Multiple Targets" from 6E2 62.

 

No, you didn't forgot anything. TK has a bad AP/STR ratio and the Robots payed a lot for their stun immunity power (both the primary cost and the trippling of costs for all defenses).

 

You could allow him to buy Telekintik Martial Arts (with HSMA even a Killing attack version of Slam/Squeeze). Or perhaps let him build it as a RKA with the SFX of "grabbing two things and slamming them agaisnt another".

Foci, Barriers and Automatons are the most usual targets for killing attacks in Superheroic games.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Multigrab on automaton

 

I would have ruled it as the two automatons doing a 'move through' on each other, with the velocity determined by the player's TK strength and the weight of the bot; basically +1 damage class per 5 STR over what was required to lift each bot. Either that, or calculate it as a throw or slam, with the maximum damage classes set by the DEF+BODY of the automatons. IE if they were both DEF 10 with 20 BODY, then at most something slammed into them could take 30d6, which few throws are going to achieve.

 

Another way to think of it would be that each bot is technically a "weapon of opportunity" and is being used as a club against the other, for a few extra damage classes added to the throw / HTH attack.

 

I don't think you necessarily did it 'wrong' but I think I would have allowed that as a somewhat effective attack option, and ensured it did campaign-appropriate damage.

[Christopher]

Re: Multigrab on automaton

 

I don't think you necessarily did it 'wrong' but I think I would have allowed that as a somewhat effective attack option' date=' and ensured it did campaign-appropriate damage.[/quote']

The damage was apropirate. For purposes of qusetion like "is this defense okay", Automatons with No Stun should have their defenses be trippeled (because they also pay three times as much) (it's in teh rules, one of the last sentences).

So these bots have the equivalent of 24 PD and 8 rPD, wich I put under "brick level defenses".

[IKerensky]

Re: Multigrab on automaton

 

Well, I used the robot from Champions 6th edition book, with standard heroes from the hero generator of the same book so I guess they were balanced

 

Strangely the only one of the heroes that have less than 10 rPD is the shapeshifter as he use basic creatures from the bestiary without mods... Perhaps I should up them a bit as he got mauled as a Ankylosaurus by 8d6 Blast. (4 rPD hurt a lot).

 

I will try to have the Magnetic Power guy to buy some DC of damage with Squeeze with his experience points. The thing is that I treated the Robot as using a character to hit another, while perhaps I should have used them as using a improvised weapon... But even then...

 

BTW isn't it strange that a STR-40 character could use a weapon in melee to go up to 16d6 while Telekinesis could only go up to 8d6 with a STR-40 ?

[Christopher]

Re: Multigrab on automaton

 

BTW isn't it strange that a STR-40 character could use a weapon in melee to go up to 16d6 while Telekinesis could only go up to 8d6 with a STR-40 ?

You can use TK to wield a weapon, the same way you could wield it with normal STR. So I don't really get your question.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Multigrab on automaton

 

Well, I used the robot from Champions 6th edition book, with standard heroes from the hero generator of the same book so I guess they were balanced

 

Strangely the only one of the heroes that have less than 10 rPD is the shapeshifter as he use basic creatures from the bestiary without mods... Perhaps I should up them a bit as he got mauled as a Ankylosaurus by 8d6 Blast. (4 rPD hurt a lot).

 

I would think that the Ankylosaurus has 4 rPD and then also some additional PD; a blast (as a non-killing attack) would go against the targets 'highest' non-resistant PD. So if the Ankylosaurus has, say, 12 PD and 4 rPD, that should end up as 16 total non-resistant PD, depending on how the resistant PD was bought.

 

BTW isn't it strange that a STR-40 character could use a weapon in melee to go up to 16d6 while Telekinesis could only go up to 8d6 with a STR-40 ?

 

STR 40 plus an 8d6 'club' is 16d6, whether wielded by the STR 40 brick, or the mentalist with 40 STR TK.

[IKerensky]

Re: Multigrab on automaton

 

But with his 4rPD he got trouble with the 8 BODY from the blast attack ? or did I miss something ?

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Multigrab on automaton

 

But with his 4rPD he got trouble with the 8 BODY from the blast attack ? or did I miss something ?

 

Yes. A Blast is a Normal, or "Non-Killing", attack like a punch or kinetic blaster or the like. A "killing attack" is a bullet or knife or disruptor or the like.

 

When you get hit with a normal attack, you get your full PD - all appropriate defenses added together - against both the BODY and STUN dealt by the attack.

 

On a Killing Attack (Xd6k), you would only get your resistant defenses against the BODY, but your full PD against the STUN.

 

That explain things? I sometimes fear my explanations are somehow a bit obtuse.

[Christopher]

Re: Multigrab on automaton

 

Well' date=' I used the robot from Champions 6th edition book, with standard heroes from the hero generator of the same book so I guess they were balanced [/quote']

They have defenses worth 45 (No Stun w/ abiltiy loss), 42 (+7 PD/ED at the higher rates), 24 (Resistant for the for 8 PD/ED) = 111 Points.

I think him not taking damage from a 8D6 Normal Attack (40 AP) is totally ballanced

 

Every 9D6 normal or 2.5d6 Killing attack will likely do at least one body past defenses, thus killing of abilities.

 

Edit: I forgot to add the higher cost for DCV. They a trippeled too. so add 30 more to the 111, for 141 Real Cost.

[IKerensky]

Re: Multigrab on automaton

 

Dang, I knew something was wrong but wasn't able to put my finger on what.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

Going for the detail of the defense cost it looks logical.

 

But I wonder if 141 pts of defense is balanced after all... even if the brick got 20rPF/20rED

[Christopher]

Re: Multigrab on automaton

 

But I wonder if 141 pts of defense is balanced after all... even if the brick got 20rPF/20rED

For charcters certainly not. To make a brainless Robot, Zombie or the like: Absolutely.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Multigrab on automaton

 

For charcters certainly not. To make a brainless Robot' date=' Zombie or the like: Absolutely.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I put an automaton up against my 220-ish point Fantasy HERO party, with average defenses of about 30 active points and attacks at about 45 active points.

 

That automaton's 100+ points in defenses did it jack squat

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Multigrab on automaton

 

Hi,

 

 

Was it ok with the rules ? the thing is that with the robot STUN immunity and 8 rPD there is basically no way he can damage them. Did I forgot something ?

 

He can damage them by rolling more than 8 Body on the attack. It may take a while, but he could eventually wear them down. Loaded or shaved dice help here. =)

 

Edit: That's assuming the 8rPD is the whole defense. If they have some non resistant PD too, then he's out of luck.

[Christopher]

Re: Multigrab on automaton

 

He can damage them by rolling more than 8 Body on the attack. It may take a while, but he could eventually wear them down. Loaded or shaved dice help here. =)

 

Edit: That's assuming the 8rPD is the whole defense. If they have some non resistant PD too, then he's out of luck.

Clearly state he had only 8rPD. And I looked up the writeupt (it the one in Champions 6E).

Plus, on that level of no Stun (45 Points) he also looses a power every time he takes damage, like written in post 10:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/87731-Multigrab-on-automaton?p=2248275#post2248275

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Multigrab on automaton

 

Clearly state he had only 8rPD. And I looked up the writeupt (it the one in Champions 6E).

Plus, on that level of no Stun (45 Points) he also looses a power every time he takes damage, like written in post 10:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/87731-Multigrab-on-automaton?p=2248275#post2248275

 

Clear to you, maybe. What's the point of this reply?

 

My point stands: The character can eventually wear down the robots by simply rolling high enough. It would, and should, take a while.

[IKerensky]

Re: Multigrab on automaton

 

Well, they 'could' get them... but it depend on the character involved...

 

The 'Brick' with 60 STR and a +4DC penetrating martial manoeuver mincemeat them.

The Magnetist had problem with his 40 STR telekinesis but could use a 4D6 RKA... if jhe manage to roll above 8 on thoses dices (appealing roller).

The Shapeshifter could hurt them with 2d6-3d6 HKA.

The Mindmingler... could probably do nothing at all against them with her 40 STR telekinesis... nor her 12D6 mental blast.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Multigrab on automaton

 

There's also pushing, but TK gets a little hosed there as well.

[Christopher]

Re: Multigrab on automaton

 

Well, they 'could' get them... but it depend on the character involved...

 

The 'Brick' with 60 STR and a +4DC penetrating martial manoeuver mincemeat them.

The Magnetist had problem with his 40 STR telekinesis but could use a 4D6 RKA... if jhe manage to roll above 8 on thoses dices (appealing roller).

The Shapeshifter could hurt them with 2d6-3d6 HKA.

The Mindmingler... could probably do nothing at all against them with her 40 STR telekinesis... nor her 12D6 mental blast.

There is pushing. Move by. Move through. Using CSL to increas your damage. Haymaker (if you can get them to hold still for a segment). Use items to increas your damage (it just needs to be tough enough to add something).

 

And there are other things you can do when in a team (or even if you are alone): Trip them, throw them, grab them (they only have 15 STR and 3 SPD) just to hinder them or set them up for follow up. The APG I even has things as "Grab and controll", with wich you make them shoot each other.

You could literally grab them with TK, take out a HKA (sword) and stab them while you hold them helpless...

 

The brick: Yes, penetrating Killing Attacks are always good vs. Foci and these guys. As are KA's in general, but penetrating is best (guaranteed to leave a mark). PenetratingNormal Damage not so much (since all they do, is doing a certain amoutn of STUN).

The Magnetist: The TK only does 8d6 normal, so math is agaisnt him (Blast does around 1 Body per DC and that relative reliable). But as pointed out before, even 1 DC more can make a difference (since Blast does reliably 1 Body per DC).

Shapeshifter: 3d6 KA does on average 10.5 Body. Not really a problem.

Mindmingler: Has the same options as the Magnetist with his TK, plus having more items to use as weapons.