Logarithmic math attempt at damage from the sun

[Ndreare]

Logarithmic math attempt at damage from the sun and nuclear explosions.

 

Lets try this using my crappy math absent of things like proper energy terms such as newtons and jowls (please forgive the bad spelling)

 

I will use the following assumptions as they must be made somewhere and we all know science is all about assumption anyway.

0 DC = Human Comfort zone

1 DC = First Levels of Human Intolerance (20^C or 36^F see excuses as follows)

 

Humans Begin to take minor damage in temperatures outside of 0-40^C (32-

With a human being comfortable at 20^C So lets pretend we have a tolerance of 20^C. (Although we know that we become uncomfortable way before these temps are reached and anything out side of the 10-30^C (50-86^F) range will have adverse affects on our performance with things like dehydration/burns or hypothermia starting but this is for a game of larger than life beings. (If you wanted to re-due the math with the base range being 10-20 all you have to do is add 1 DC as that would take care of the first doubling.)

 

Temperature of Average House Hold Fire = 400^C or 5-6 doublings = 5 DC

 

 

Epicenter of a Nuclear explosion = 300,000,000^C or 25-26 doublings = 25 DC

 

(http//:http://www.howthingswork.com list the center as from 300-500 million degrees Celsius.)

 

 

Temperature of the Corona of the Sun =6000^C or 13-14 doublings = 13 DC

 

 

Temperature at Center of The Sun = 15,000,000^C or 21-22 doublings = 21 DC

Don’t Forget mega-scale explosion on the last three.

 

After this you can add Armor Piercing and Penetrating if you wanted to represent that with the sun there are dozens of different energies being used. I personally would also add a NND attack vs. LS High Radiation and Safe in High Pressure of Equal DC. (If not satisfied another option would be to just make the attack killing dice equal to the number of doublings then it would be truly powerful.)

 

The conversion from Fahrenheit to centigrade is as follows

 

(TF-32)/1.8=TC

 

TC*1.8+32=TF

 

So 32 Fahrenheit is 0 Celsius and 100 Celsius is 212 Fahrenheit.

 

TF=Temperature Fahrenheit

TC= Temperature Celsius

 

 

So what can you come up with using math as a foundation as opposed to the “it just feels rite†system? I know that the above numbers will not feel “Rite†to most. So if you think they are wrong I believe you should show your logic using math as we are talking about a math based system.

 

 

The following is from Ask.com

[text size=-2]

The Sun is the most prominent feature in our solar system. It is the largest object and contains approximately 98% of the total solar system mass. One hundred and nine Earths would be required to fit across the Sun's disk, and its interior could hold over 1.3 million Earths. The Sun's outer visible layer is called the photosphere and has a temperature of 6,000°C (11,000°F). This layer has a mottled appearance due to the turbulent eruptions of energy at the surface.

Solar energy is created deep within the core of the Sun. It is here that the temperature (15,000,000° C; 27,000,000° F) and pressure (340 billion times Earth's air pressure at sea level) is so intense that nuclear reactions take place. This reaction causes four protons or hydrogen nuclei to fuse together to form one alpha particle or helium nucleus. The alpha particle is about .7 percent less massive than the four protons. The difference in mass is expelled as energy and is carried to the surface of the Sun, through a process known as convection, where it is released as light and heat. Energy generated in the Sun's core takes a million years to reach its surface. Every second 700 million tons of hydrogen are converted into helium ashes. In the process 5 million tons of pure energy is released; therefore, as time goes on the Sun is becoming lighter.

The chromosphere is above the photosphere. Solar energy passes through this region on its way out from the center of the Sun. Faculae and flares arise in the chromosphere. Faculae are bright luminous hydrogen clouds which form above regions where sunspots are about to form. Flares are bright filaments of hot gas emerging from sunspot regions. Sunspots are dark depressions on the photosphere with a typical temperature of 4,000°C (7,000°F).

The corona is the outer part of the Sun's atmosphere. It is in this region that prominences appears. Prominences are immense clouds of glowing gas that erupt from the upper chromosphere. The outer region of the corona stretches far into space and consists of particles traveling slowly away from the Sun. The corona can only be seen during total solar eclipses. (See Solar Eclipse Image).

The Sun appears to have been active for 4.6 billion years and has enough fuel to go on for another five billion years or so. At the end of its life, the Sun will start to fuse helium into heavier elements and begin to swell up, ultimately growing so large that it will swallow the Earth. After a billion years as a red giant, it will suddenly collapse into a white dwarf -- the final end product of a star like ours. It may take a trillion years to cool off completely.

 

Sun Statistics

Mass (kg) 1.989e+30

Mass (Earth = 1) 332,830

Equatorial radius (km) 695,000

Equatorial radius (Earth = 1) 108.97

Mean density (gm/cm^3) 1.410

Rotational period (days) 25-36*

Escape velocity (km/sec) 618.02

Luminosity (ergs/sec) 3.827e33

Magnitude (Vo) -26.8

Mean surface temperature 6,000°C

Age (billion years) 4.5

The Sun's period of rotation at the surface varies from approximately 25 days at the equator to 36 days at the poles. Deep down, below the convective zone, everything appears to rotate with a period of 27 days. [/text size=-2]

[Ndreare]

Man those are some ridiculously low numbers but hey. What the heck.

[NuSoardGraphite]

21 DC is just based on the Heat.

 

I think the intense pressure (340 billion times that of the earths at sea-level!) would increase the damage dice dramatically.

 

that and the fact that its Continuous, doing damage every segment, makes it supremely dangerous.

 

Add AVLD or NND (vs Life Suppor or Force Field or something) and you have something that will eventually eat up just about anything that enters it...

[BNakagawa]

Yeah, How do you stat out a continuous transformation attack of hydrogen atoms into helium atoms and so on?

 

Man, that's gotta hurt.

[Ndreare]

Even the 240 billion times the earths presure could be converted into DC. (I did specify that there should be NND attacks linked) I simply would like to have a system of logic behind the damage as opposed to a 275D6 Killing Attack with a fer levels of AP and PEN.

 

(240 Billion times 0DC presure would be 35-36 doublings = 35 DC)

 

Wich would all be linked multiple power attacks starting at the center with AOE Radious, Explosion, and a couple levels of mega-scale. (Most radial energy including gravity, EM radiation and heat follow the inverse square law meaning every time you double your distance from the sourse you reduce the Intensity by 75%. Plus attenuation and impedance will affect these also but in space this is not a factor.)

 

The transformation of hydrogen into helium would be a radiation related event as Gamma and X- Radiation ionize particle by electron displacement so that would be covered by the NND vs LS Radiation Support or in my oppinion all rad attacks should be power def based anyways as radiation tranforms you as much as "burns" you. which is way the faster something replicates/heals the lower its radiation resistanse. (I work with ionizing radiation for a living)

 

 

Diclamer: I am not a siance nerd so some of the details may elude me but the basic ideas are here.

[Farkling]

There is a comparitive in FREd that destructs your numbers.

 

Check out the environmental damage section

 

A Blast Furnace is 6d6 Energy (Heat) Killing plus 12d6 Physical (if in furnace)

 

The quasi fictional Plasma Torch is a 4d6 KA, AP (Heat)

 

Rocket Exhaust

(I imagine mainline Shuttle engines, Saturn 5 Boosters and the like)

Lists out as follows::

6d6 - 8D6 Energy (Heat) Killing PLUS 18d6 Normal Physical

 

That in itself seems more powerful than what you have listed for the Sun.

 

Heat and pressure wise, this may be the closest HERO analogy to the Sun (I don't have Star Hero)

 

 

I assume the seperation is for the pressure, going by the qualification of "in the furnace" and that they are normal Physical dice.

 

Oddly enough, the answers from ask.com show rocket exhaust to be near the temperature of the surface of the sun!! 6,000°C is the solar surface temperature, and rocket exhaust is listed out at 6,000°K. Kelvin to Celsius conversion is a 273° difference I believe. So, we need to start the sun's surface temperature with the rocket exhaust, since it is a superheated plasma modelling the sun's temperature.

 

That's my 5 cents

[Farkling]

So that's the heat damage....the pressure I am completely lost on.

[Ndreare]

The complaint of no constant system of energy to DC still stands under this information. The problem from my point of view is that it seems alot of these numbers are pulled from the arse. (Not yours, Hero's)

 

It seemed in the old days there was a logic being followed. I was hopping to create, inspire or find some here. My problem is that I think the numbers are all screwed up. As someone who believes in trying to fix things when I whine I thought to create some sort of system or get one from others as opposed to what "Appears" to be DC based on a random number genorater as opposed to a constant system.

[Alcamtar]

Re: Logarithmic math attempt at damage from the sun

 

Originally posted by Ndreare

I will use the following assumptions as they must be made somewhere and we all know science is all about assumption anyway.

0 DC = Human Comfort zone

1 DC = First Levels of Human Intolerance (20^C or 36^F see excuses as follows)

 

Humans Begin to take minor damage in temperatures outside of 0-40^C

 

With a human being comfortable at 20^C So lets pretend we have a tolerance of 20^C. (Although we know that we become uncomfortable way before these temps are reached and anything out side of the 10-30^C (50-86^F) range will have adverse affects on our performance with things like dehydration/burns or hypothermia starting but this is for a game of larger than life beings.

 

Temperature of Average House Hold Fire = 400^C or 5-6 doublings = 5 DC

 

You have a very major unstated assumption, which is that twice the temperature = twice the damage. I think an average house fire at 400 C is going to do a lot more than 5 DC to a normal human.

 

Doubling may work for energy/thrust but this is a different *type* of damage. It should still be logarithmic, but the scale may be different.

 

For example, I played around with some numbers in a spreadsheet. Assumptions:

(a) 20 C is safe (0 DC)

( 30-40 C is dangerous (1 DC)

© the surface of a rocket engine at 6000 C is DC 24 (from FRED)

 

What we have to do now is find a logarithmic scale that maps a range of 6000 degrees to 24 DCs. I came up with:

 

temp C = 20 + ((1.2^(DC))-1)*80

 

This scales out to:

 

DC 0     20 C
DC 1     36 C
DC 2     55 C
DC 3     78 C
DC 4    106 C
DC 10   435 C  House Fire (400 C)
DC 22  1715 C  Molten Iron (1550 C)
DC 23  2070 C  Blast Furnace (2000 C)
DC 24  6300 C  Sun's Surface (6000 C)
DC 67   16M C  Sun's Core (15,000,000 C)
DC 83  300M C  Sun's Core (15,000,000 C)

 

For atmospheric pressure, I used 16 PSI (one atmosphere) as 0 DC, and 100 PSI as the limit for 1 DC. I chose 100 PSI since that's the limit for oxygen poisoning for divers; your body can physically stand that pressure (and more), it's mostly a limit on proper respiration. Arbitrarily setting the pressure at the sun's core to DC 68 (because it's ridiculously high, and just to make it match the temperature DC), I got

 

PSI = 16 + ((1.5^(DC))-1)*500

 

This gives:

 

DC 0 16 PSI

DC 1 266 PSI (oxygen poisoning)

DC 2 641 PSI

DC 3 1204 PSI

DC 68 200 billion tons/square inch (Sun's core)

 

Of course concussive/crushing force is different; using the standard 2X joules scale, we have

 

DC 0 25 PSI

DC 1 50 PSI

DC 2 100 PSI

DC 37 3E+12 PSI (sun's core)

 

This works for sudden crushing, so it seems safe to assume that if a person is suddenly put into the sun, they'd suffer crushing damage. OTOH if they sank in gradually enough to become acclimated, they'd burn and suffocate long before the pressure got them. Still there's a limit, so maybe just subtract 2 or 3 DCs for acclimatization.

 

Anyway my point is that not everything has to double the same way physical force does. Burning may be totally different.

 

I've wondering if Steve changed the underlying scale without telling anyone, for example instead of doubling every 5 AP, maybe it's now doubling every 10 AP or something. That would explain the inflated weapon damage and defenses. What I mean is something like:

 

DC  AP   Energy
0    0   16 joules
1    5   23 joules
2   10   32 joules
3   15   45 joules
4   20   64 joules
5   25   91 joules
6   30  128 joules
7   35  181 joules

 

This would have the effect of using more dice for the same effect (so a gun with a muzzle velocity of 200 ft-lbs increases from DC 4 to DC 8). Using more dice reduces the effects of variability at low levels so normals aren't as likely to "get lucky" and survive a big attack.

 

Mike

[Agent X]

Re: Re: Logarithmic math attempt at damage from the sun

 

Originally posted by Alcamtar

You have a very major unstated assumption, which is that twice the temperature = twice the damage. I think an average house fire at 400 C is going to do a lot more than 5 DC to a normal human.

 

Doubling may work for energy/thrust but this is a different *type* of damage. It should still be logarithmic, but the scale may be different.

 

For example, I played around with some numbers in a spreadsheet. Assumptions:

(a) 20 C is safe (0 DC)

( 30-40 C is dangerous (1 DC)

© the surface of a rocket engine at 6000 C is DC 24 (from FRED)

 

What we have to do now is find a logarithmic scale that maps a range of 6000 degrees to 24 DCs. I came up with:

 

temp C = 20 + ((1.2^(DC))-1)*80

 

This scales out to:

 

DC 0     20 C
DC 1     36 C
DC 2     55 C
DC 3     78 C
DC 4    106 C
DC 10   435 C  House Fire (400 C)
DC 22  1715 C  Molten Iron (1550 C)
DC 23  2070 C  Blast Furnace (2000 C)
DC 24  6300 C  Sun's Surface (6000 C)
DC 67   16M C  Sun's Core (15,000,000 C)
DC 83  300M C  Sun's Core (15,000,000 C)

 

For atmospheric pressure, I used 16 PSI (one atmosphere) as 0 DC, and 100 PSI as the limit for 1 DC. I chose 100 PSI since that's the limit for oxygen poisoning for divers; your body can physically stand that pressure (and more), it's mostly a limit on proper respiration. Arbitrarily setting the pressure at the sun's core to DC 68 (because it's ridiculously high, and just to make it match the temperature DC), I got

 

PSI = 16 + ((1.5^(DC))-1)*500

 

This gives:

 

DC 0 16 PSI

DC 1 266 PSI (oxygen poisoning)

DC 2 641 PSI

DC 3 1204 PSI

DC 68 200 billion tons/square inch (Sun's core)

 

Of course concussive/crushing force is different; using the standard 2X joules scale, we have

 

DC 0 25 PSI

DC 1 50 PSI

DC 2 100 PSI

DC 37 3E+12 PSI (sun's core)

 

This works for sudden crushing, so it seems safe to assume that if a person is suddenly put into the sun, they'd suffer crushing damage. OTOH if they sank in gradually enough to become acclimated, they'd burn and suffocate long before the pressure got them. Still there's a limit, so maybe just subtract 2 or 3 DCs for acclimatization.

 

Anyway my point is that not everything has to double the same way physical force does. Burning may be totally different.

 

I've wondering if Steve changed the underlying scale without telling anyone, for example instead of doubling every 5 AP, maybe it's now doubling every 10 AP or something. That would explain the inflated weapon damage and defenses. What I mean is something like:

 

DC  AP   Energy
0    0   16 joules
1    5   23 joules
2   10   32 joules
3   15   45 joules
4   20   64 joules
5   25   91 joules
6   30  128 joules
7   35  181 joules

 

This would have the effect of using more dice for the same effect (so a gun with a muzzle velocity of 200 ft-lbs increases from DC 4 to DC 8). Using more dice reduces the effects of variability at low levels so normals aren't as likely to "get lucky" and survive a big attack.

 

Mike

The problem with Steve doing that is that it divorces the damage from strength from its lifting capacity. Why would force exerted to do damage be so much less than lifting capacity as lifting capacity increased?

 

Steve's numbers for the sun's damage are insane.

[Bartman]

Re: Re: Logarithmic math attempt at damage from the sun

 

Originally posted by Alcamtar

I've wondering if Steve changed the underlying scale without telling anyone, for example instead of doubling every 5 AP, maybe it's now doubling every 10 AP or something. That would explain the inflated weapon damage and defenses.

I don't think so. All the sample weapons below about 10DC are exactly where they were. If he had done something like this we would see high powered rifles at or about 4d6 killing. I think the problem is that Steve has abandoned scales all together, in favor of "what feels right."

[Ndreare]

Re: Re: Re: Logarithmic math attempt at damage from the sun

 

Originally posted by Bartman

I don't think so. All the sample weapons below about 10DC are exactly where they were. If he had done something like this we would see high powered rifles at or about 4d6 killing. I think the problem is that Steve has abandoned scales all together, in favor of "what feels right."

 

Please say it aint so.