Western Hero

[tcabril]

First off I want to thank everyone who chimmed in on my reloading revolver question - you have all given me much to think about.

 

I am hoping to run a Western Hero type game (I managed to pick up a copy of the 4th edition Western Hero Campaign guide and it has some really cool ideas but I think tying to convert 4th to 6th will be way more trouble than just using the 6th edition rules as is and building out my own ideas).

 

The Characters would all be made with 175 Character Points (with 50pts of matching complications). I plan to establish the Characteristic Maxima as written in 6E1 page 50.

 

The Weapons will come pretty much, as written, out of the Hero System Equipment Guide 6th edition and any animals (horses, mountain lions and such) will come out of, or be be developed using, the Hero System Beastiary 6th edition.

I will use my copies of Western Hero 4th Edition, GURPS Old West, and Aces and Eights (from K&C - a great game but very clunky to write campaigns for...) to use for prices for goods and services and the weapons (if I ever get ambitious I may publish a price list of all common and some uncommon Western goods and services for others here).

 

I am currently working on cool little extras like what "Naked" advantages I will allow - so far I am planning to allow for Double Knockback as a naked advantage but the jury is still out on Autofire - I can't get my brain wrapped around it (not the mechanics but how I would want it to work in my game).

 

I am also working on some combat modifiers to OCV and DCV - such as hip shooting and firing a weapon from horseback (so any suggestions would be great).

 

Other than that I think that Hero System is perfect for what I want to do with my campaign - a sort of knock-off on the TV Series Magnificent Seven (I know that it is not nearly as good as the original movie and that it was an either love it or hate it show - so bear with me on my choice of subject matter - I happen to have loved the series [then again I loved Tales of the Gold Monkey and the Logan's Run TV series - so my taste can clearly be called into question! ]).

 

So any ideas or suggestions I am all ears!!! (or eyes as this is a forum ).

 

Thanks in advance and sorry if this is long winded...

 

Regards,

Todd

[Christopher]

Re: Western Hero

 

I am currently working on cool little extras like what "Naked" advantages I will allow - so far I am planning to allow for Double Knockback as a naked advantage but the jury is still out on Autofire - I can't get my brain wrapped around it (not the mechanics but how I would want it to work in my game).

Autofire and Multiple Attack are closely related. Both allow multiple attacks per phase.

Autofire is faster (normal 1/2 phase) and has better chance to hit (not a -2 per target/shoot)/dcv modifier(not 1/2). It does however lack when attacking multiple targets that are far appart. I see it as a possible "Colt stunt" often seen in cinematic reality.

You might want to disalow Surpression fire and most Autofireskills however.

 

I am also working on some combat modifiers to OCV and DCV - such as hip shooting and firing a weapon from horseback (so any suggestions would be great).

See 6E2. They are both in there. Hipshot in 6E2 87

The horseback rules are under Vehicle Combat.

[tcabril]

Re: Western Hero

 

Cool thanks!!! The rulebooks are rather thick!!!

[tcabril]

Re: Western Hero

 

Would you say that in addition to haveing a -2 OCV for being a "passenger" on a horse the rider would also get the -1 OCV modifier -a total -3 to fire from horse back?

[tcabril]

Re: Western Hero

 

Christopher-

I spoke to soon - The Equipment Guide (on page 51) has some real nice rules on Fanning (or Fan-Firing).

Basically to do this one would by Autofire as a naked advantage costed out this way:

37 (the active cost of the most expensive revolver) * 1.5 (1/2 Autofire advantage) = 55 pts (55.5 rounded down in favor of PC)

then hit it with Only Works with Single-Action Revolver (-1/4) and Requires a Shooting Tricks Roll (-1/2) Limitations you get a 32 pt naked advantage.

[Christopher]

Re: Western Hero

 

Would you say that in addition to haveing a -2 OCV for being a "passenger" on a horse the rider would also get the -1 OCV modifier -a total -3 to fire from horse back?

That would be -30% chance to hit. Of course you could allow PSL for that.

I am not certian what the penalties for riding without combat riding/horse familarity are, but those are propably very bad as well.

 

 

I would go over the entire combat Maneuvers, inlcuding optionals. There is a answer for practically everything you see in a decent western.

 

Hero System Martial Arts also has Ranged Martial Arts. Extra OCV, extra Damage, reduced Range Penalty, "better" Strafe manevuers, a "tripping" shot are possible.

 

APG I one has the Following Maneuvers:

Blazing Away

Grab and redirect (shoot someone with his gun)

Hurry (extremer version of hipshot)

Pushback (less damage, but more Knockback)

 

APG II has the rules for Showdowns, but I guess wester hero has better ones and is has little else.

 

Also for the Autofire naked advnatage:

Naked Advantages cost endurance (no mater the base power) and Autofire Naked Autofire costs endurance per shot fired.

 

Combat Luck will propably be an important Talent. But there were some armors that worked agaisnt guns back then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Kelly#Glenrowan_shootout

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10288

[Christopher]

Re: Western Hero

 

Christopher-

I spoke to soon - The Equipment Guide (on page 51) has some real nice rules on Fanning (or Fan-Firing).

Basically to do this one would by Autofire as a naked advantage costed out this way:

37 (the active cost of the most expensive revolver) * 1.5 (1/2 Autofire advantage) = 55 pts (55.5 rounded down in favor of PC)

then hit it with Only Works with Single-Action Revolver (-1/4) and Requires a Shooting Tricks Roll (-1/2) Limitations you get a 32 pt naked advantage.

Somethint can't be right with that calculation:

Normally you substract the active points of the revolver/improved attack form the total points (as you already paid for those).

So thsi would only cost 55-37 = 18 points and cost 2 END/Shot.

[tcabril]

Re: Western Hero

 

Ah I forgot about that part of the math - thanks for catching that for me.

 

Any thoughts on Sawed of Shotguns? I figured just give it a 4m cone effect - no need to worry about the Active Cost as characters would just purchase a shotgune for $$ then saw off the barrel.

 

Also for tossing dynamite - I am thinking a 1/2 phase to light then 1/2 phase to toss (with a DCV of 3 to hit) - your thoughts?

[Greywind]

Re: Western Hero

 

Sawed-Off Shotgun: Area Effect Cone, No Range

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Western Hero

 

Hmm dynamite. I'd say it should be an Extra Time (Full Phase) and I'd also slap on Concentration (1/2 DCV). It's hard to keep track of the battle around you while lighting a bundle of dynamite I'd imagine. Oh and Range Based on Strength so they can't throw it like 100 meters.

[Christopher]

Re: Western Hero

 

Any thoughts on Sawed of Shotguns? I figured just give it a 4m cone effect - no need to worry about the Active Cost as characters would just purchase a shotgune for $$ then saw off the barrel.

Normal Shootguns are built with Reduced by Range and Reduced penetration.

So yes, a Cone with reduced pen is propably best.

 

Also for tossing dynamite - I am thinking a 1/2 phase to light then 1/2 phase to toss (with a DCV of 3 to hit) - your thoughts?

Range KA and Area of Effect certainly. In effect Dynamite sticks are the 0.1-Version of the Grenade.

I could see them as being built with Trigger (1 of many triggers; can missfire; long time to set) and no rang as well (you throw them with the thorw manevuer). There are a lot of things to them:

No working when wet. Then can be use with Timed Trigger (burning fuse). They can be triggered by being shot at (at least in cinema). They can be thrown, but aren't designed for it (hence I would use the normal "throw object rules").

[tcabril]

Re: Western Hero

 

The great thing about the Hero System Equipment Guide is that it already has Dynamite so I don't have to build it (does 6D6 Damage)!

 

I only have to tweak some weapons for my game - such as a Mare's Leg (which is essentially a cut down .44-40 caliber Winchester Model 1892 as used by Steve McQueen in the Magnificent Seven (and by Eric Close in the TV series).

 

Currently I am working through all the combat manevuers and taking extensive notes - to develop a "cheat-sheet" for Western Hero combat for my players.

 

Did anyone else hear the horrific news? There is going to be a remake of the Magnificent Seven movie - staring Tom Cruise!!! That is like letting my 3 year old finger-paint on the Mona Lisa!!! Arrgh!

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Western Hero

 

O~0 I think I'm going to be ill. Remaking the Magnificent Seven at all is bad enough. But casting Tom Cruise? Sickening.

[Greywind]

Re: Western Hero

 

Apparently Cruise is also up for reboot/make of Van Helsing.

[tcabril]

Re: Western Hero

 

Taking in all the awesome advice I have recieved on this and my other post (Reloading a Revolver) I am going to go with the following:

 

C&B Revolvers: 1 Phase to remove and replace a spent cylinder (1/2 phase with a successful Fast-Draw Skill Check)

Fixed Cylinder Revolvers: 2 chambers/bullets per 1/2 phase [With a Fast Loader - the whole thing can be reloaded in 1 phase (mulling 1/2 a phase with a successful Fast-Draw Skill Check)]

Shot Gun: 1 Phase to break and pop shells and reload [1/2 phase with successful Fast Draw Skill Check?]

Lever Action Rifle: Slide 2 rounds in per 1/2 Phase.

 

This was draw up based upon multiple opininons and points (not favoring one over another) and all your advice was helpful.

 

What do you think? I want there to be some "delay" in reloading as I want that tension/drama when the bullets run out.

 

 

Thanks in advance!!!

 

Todd

[Christopher]

Re: Western Hero

 

What do you think? I want there to be some "delay" in reloading as I want that tension/drama when the bullets run out.

Every phase you spend reloading, is a Phase you can't shoot (and the enemy can get into a better position).

 

If you need a half phase to reload, then you can't Multiattack or do other Full phase stuff. And those hlaf phase reloads requie the skill (that you have to buy per weapon category).

[tcabril]

Re: Western Hero

 

So what would you suggest? Recomendations? I am not being flippant just trying to figure out how to best to do this (and I really do appreciate all the assistance you have thus far given me )

 

Western Hero has a phase to replace a spent revlover cylinder so I used that as a basis.

 

The enemy has to reload too...

[tcabril]

Re: Western Hero

 

Page 371 6E1 states that it takes a full Phase to reload a "clip" and 1/2 a phase with a successful Fast-Draw skill check (page 71 6E1).

 

I would think that changing out cartridges or a revlover cylinder would take longer than dropping a clip and slamming a new one in.

Considering that a TURN is 12 seconds long and that a SEGMENT/PHASE is 1 second long - I am not so sure my "timing" is off.

 

Any other thoughts?

[Christopher]

Re: Western Hero

 

Page 371 6E1 states that it takes a full Phase to reload a "clip" and 1/2 a phase with a successful Fast-Draw skill check (page 71 6E1).

 

I would think that changing out cartridges or a revlover cylinder would take longer than dropping a clip and slamming a new one in.

Considering that a TURN is 12 seconds long and that a SEGMENT/PHASE is 1 second long - I am not so sure my "timing" is off.

 

Any other thoughts?

I phase is not 1 Second Long. One phase is 12(Seconds per Turn)/SPD Seconds long. All action happens simultainously takes as long as you need to your next phase.

The entire Phase/Dex mechanic is only there to figure out who goes first, who is "that split second faster", who can incept who's attack,...

 

And all that increasing the reload time will archive is the players are packing even more guns so they don't have to reload. And Players walking around with a dozen guns does not sounds like what you have in mind.

[tcabril]

Re: Western Hero

 

Okay now I am confused...

On page 6E2 16 it states "Each Turn equals 12 Seconds of Time" so I just assumed that if there are 12 Segments - each was about a second long.

That is besides the point.

 

What reload times would you suggest? Like I said on page 6E1 371 it states it takes a full phase to switch out a "clip" So how am I "increasing" the reload time?

 

Please don't think I am trying to be difficult or start an argument - I am just trying to wrap my brain around this.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Western Hero

 

Taking in all the awesome advice I have recieved on this and my other post (Reloading a Revolver) I am going to go with the following:

 

...

Fixed Cylinder Revolvers: 2 chambers/bullets per 1/2 phase [With a Fast Loader - the whole thing can be reloaded in 1 phase (mulling 1/2 a phase with a successful Fast-Draw Skill Check)]

...

 

Thanks in advance!!!

 

Todd

 

That should be 2 chambers per phase. Doing it in a half-phase needs the Quick Draw roll.

 

About shooting dynamite to detonate it: it's nitroglycerine soaked into Fuller's Earth (originally) to stabilize it and wrapped in waxed paper. The nitro will start to "sweat" back out if left sitting too long. The shock of an exploding blasting cap was used to set it off, so I'd expect a rifle bullet to do the job as well. Pistol rounds might be more iffy.

[tcabril]

Re: Western Hero

 

The more I think about this the more it seems I may be complicating things (which I have been know to do...)

 

So taking into consideration the rules on page 371 6E1 which states that it takes a full Phase to reload a "clip" and 1/2 a phase with a successful Fast-Draw skill check (page 71 6E1).

 

Would it not be easier (or simpler) to say Reloading a rifle or revolver would take a phase (regardless of type) and 1/2 a phase with a Fast-Draw skill check?

[Tom Carman]

Re: Western Hero

 

As long as you are talking about cartridge-based weapons, yes, with the note that a reload action replaces 2 rounds on many guns.

[Christopher]

Re: Western Hero

 

Okay now I am confused...

On page 6E2 16 it states "Each Turn equals 12 Seconds of Time" so I just assumed that if there are 12 Segments - each was about a second long.

That is besides the point.

 

What reload times would you suggest? Like I said on page 6E1 371 it states it takes a full phase to switch out a "clip" So how am I "increasing" the reload time?

 

Please don't think I am trying to be difficult or start an argument - I am just trying to wrap my brain around this.

If you have speed 4 you ahve 4 phases. So one phase every 3 seconds.

You don't "act" one second (including slowly moving 12m in that second), then wait two seconds doing nothing. Then act another second. Then do two more seconds nothing. (repeat two more times, then start new turn). That would look rather stupid and is definetly not very cinematic.

 

So for all intends of "what can a normal person do in a phase", don't look at a phase as a "1 second" thing. Look at it as a "6 second thing" (the time one phase lasts at SPD 2, the default speed).

Heroes (the ones from Western or Fantasy) can do a lot more in 12 seconds without fumbling while reloading or missing when shooting. They easily do what a normal person outside of combat can do in 6 seconds in 3 seconds while being in combat - they have bought the SPD (4) to be able to do so and is the heroic way to do stuff. SPD can be a much better measure of combat power than OCV/DCV!

Sure there might be a little logical problem if the hero puts 6 normals seconds worth of bullets in his gun in Segment 3, but has to abort to dodge in segment 4. But such things always pan out in the end. And it's not that he does nothing but "duck and weave" in place until his next regular phase in segment 9.

 

The entier phase system is only there to give a rule system of "who goes first", "who can act in time", "how much can I do in any given timeperiod?" and "who can dominate the combat".

 

The more I think about this the more it seems I may be complicating things (which I have been know to do...)

 

So taking into consideration the rules on page 371 6E1 which states that it takes a full Phase to reload a "clip" and 1/2 a phase with a successful Fast-Draw skill check (page 71 6E1).

 

Would it not be easier (or simpler) to say Reloading a rifle or revolver would take a phase (regardless of type) and 1/2 a phase with a Fast-Draw skill check?

That is indeed what is written under fast draw and the Charges-Clip Rules.

 

And like I said, any increase would only mean the characters pack more guns, so they can fast draw one (0-phase) instead of having to reload for two phases/1 full phase. Player dislike doing nothing but readying weapons in one of thier phases.

[tcabril]

Re: Western Hero

 

So do you think this is the way to go:

 

Would it not be easier (or simpler) to say Reloading a rifle or revolver would take a phase (regardless of type) and 1/2 a phase with a Fast-Draw skill check?