Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

[Duane From RI]

I am developing a bipedal alien species for a sci-fi campaign that is blind and deaf. The alien species has a special attachment to a dog-like alien from their world that does see and does hear.

The bipedal alien has a psychic bond with it's pet and can "see" what the pet sees and "hear" what the pet hears.

 

Is this best built through Clairsentience? What about limiting Normal Sight and Normal Hearing? Is this a dramatic and common sense case where those should have the (-1/2) limitation applied to them although this is normally against the rules?

 

Curious about other peoples thoughts.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

So, if the whole species is like this, how did they get around before the dog like creature?

 

Also, I think you can just by the relavent senses with IIF (Dog Creature) -1/4, and Adjacent with a set effect (Only from the point of view of the dog creature). No need to monkey with Clairsentience here.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

Couple of questions:

How far does this sense-bond extend?

What happens if the dog dies?

What else can the dog do?

What degree of control does the alien have over the actions of the dog?

[Duane From RI]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

So' date=' if the whole species is like this, how did they get around before the dog like creature?[/quote']

 

The premise of this sci-fi campaign is that all aliens evolve psionics during the same time frame as they evolve sentience. Thus during the evolutionary chain of species, the ancestor species hunted by scent (olfactory receptors in the roof of the mouth). The psychic bond with the dog-like creature was something that evolved due to the nature of psionics on natural selection. (Earth suffered a psionic disaster 65 mya and psionic evolution was retarded)

 

Couple of questions:

How far does this sense-bond extend?

What happens if the dog dies?

What else can the dog do?

What degree of control does the alien have over the actions of the dog?

 

I wasn't overly concerned with the range of the sense bond, when this species adventures the pet is usually pretty close by. I'm very flexible with story. The story for this particular alien is based more on the visuals of the alien and the pet. Any limit on range would add to the "character" of the alien and the inherent struggle of playing it, which I consider a good thing.

The pet is as sapient as a chimp (ie. more than a dog), has eyes, ears and heat pits, a nasty bite, and just a little more athletic than a police dog.

The pet isn't as slavish as a police dog, but it accepts the bipedal alien as the dominant member of a partnership. The dog isn't self aware enough to figure out why they are exploring space and working with other aliens, but it is self aware enough to know that it likes doing so.

As for what happens when the pet dies - that I'm still working on. I'm uncomfortable with the character outright losing the points of a follower, but clearly there will need to be a mini-quest to replace the pet. This is helped along by the way space travel works in the campaign; time does not actually pass for space travelers. Their senses record the passage of time in space but it is strictly a trick on the mind. Physical time only passes for people planet-side. So if one of these aliens needed to get a replacement pet, the physical time that would pass would be based on a kennel master selecting a replacement and getting it on an outbound ship.

[Christopher]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

The big question is:

If they "loose" thier sense and then buy them back with a Follower, did they really have lost anything?

 

I would propably built it as "blind and deaf if dog not avalible" Complication.

Using a Follower/Clairsentience built either cost to much for the effect, or is a pretty complciated way to save points.

 

As for what happens when the pet dies - that I'm still working on. I'm uncomfortable with the character outright losing the points of a follower' date=' but clearly there will need to be a mini-quest to replace the pet.[/quote']

Even by raw you do not loose those points. Unlike a duplicate a Follower can be replaced, but usually with time.

[Duane From RI]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

Well I did some digging in the APG and found the following: "Clairsentience with the Only Through The Senses Of Others Limitation allows a character to use Senses he does not himself possess."

I think mechanically Clairsentience used in this way is going to get me to where I want this to feel. Only through pet is at least a (-1/2) and 6E1 even recommends (-3/4) for limited class of beings.

[Christopher]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

Well I did some digging in the APG and found the following: "Clairsentience with the Only Through The Senses Of Others Limitation allows a character to use Senses he does not himself possess."

I think mechanically Clairsentience used in this way is going to get me to where I want this to feel. Only through pet is at least a (-1/2) and 6E1 even recommends (-3/4) for limited class of beings.

I think a familar should have less limitation value here. After all it is not that the has to search for a dog. So he is not really limited, compared to searching a Shark in the Desert.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

The premise of this sci-fi campaign is that all aliens evolve psionics during the same time frame as they evolve sentience. Thus during the evolutionary chain of species, the ancestor species hunted by scent (olfactory receptors in the roof of the mouth). The psychic bond with the dog-like creature was something that evolved due to the nature of psionics on natural selection. (Earth suffered a psionic disaster 65 mya and psionic evolution was retarded)

 

I wasn't overly concerned with the range of the sense bond, when this species adventures the pet is usually pretty close by. I'm very flexible with story. The story for this particular alien is based more on the visuals of the alien and the pet. Any limit on range would add to the "character" of the alien and the inherent struggle of playing it, which I consider a good thing.

The pet is as sapient as a chimp (ie. more than a dog), has eyes, ears and heat pits, a nasty bite, and just a little more athletic than a police dog.

The pet isn't as slavish as a police dog, but it accepts the bipedal alien as the dominant member of a partnership. The dog isn't self aware enough to figure out why they are exploring space and working with other aliens, but it is self aware enough to know that it likes doing so.

As for what happens when the pet dies - that I'm still working on. I'm uncomfortable with the character outright losing the points of a follower, but clearly there will need to be a mini-quest to replace the pet. This is helped along by the way space travel works in the campaign; time does not actually pass for space travelers. Their senses record the passage of time in space but it is strictly a trick on the mind. Physical time only passes for people planet-side. So if one of these aliens needed to get a replacement pet, the physical time that would pass would be based on a kennel master selecting a replacement and getting it on an outbound ship.

 

How about...buy the chimpdog with either multiform or follower, probably follower. Leave the alien's senses in place as they are but take a physical complication that it becomes blind and deaf if sufficiently separated from the chimpdog. That way you get the effect without having to spend points on Clairsentience etc., and it is a pretty clean build.

[RPMiller]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

The big question is:

If they "loose" thier sense and then buy them back with a Follower, did they really have lost anything?

 

I would propably built it as "blind and deaf if dog not avalible" Complication.

Using a Follower/Clairsentience built either cost to much for the effect, or is a pretty complciated way to save points.

 

 

Even by raw you do not loose those points. Unlike a duplicate a Follower can be replaced, but usually with time.

How about...buy the chimpdog with either multiform or follower' date=' probably follower. Leave the alien's senses in place as they are but take a physical complication that it becomes blind and deaf if sufficiently separated from the chimpdog. That way you get the effect without having to spend points on Clairsentience etc., and it is a pretty clean build.[/quote']

This is by far the option I would agree most with. Think of characters like Daredevil. Yes, he's blind, but not really. He doesn't suffer from the same extremes that most blind people suffer from. He's just got a could limitations that are fairly minor like can't see colors and the like. If the alien really isn't hindered that much by being blind and deaf thanks to the companion, and the companion is pretty easy to come by, then it isn't, and shouldn't, be a big point saver. It truly is just a complication.

 

In fact, mechanically, the companion should be purchased not as a follower, but as a set of abilities the character has without paying anything special for sight and hearing. The companion is in essence an OAF for the set of abilities that it possesses because those abilities inherently belong to the character. Unless of course the companion is able to say "no" to the character. I guess for clarification I would need to know if the player is playing the companion, or if the GM is playing the companion, and how ultimately restrictive the companion's role is to the character.

[Christopher]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

This is by far the option I would agree most with. Think of characters like Daredevil. Yes' date=' he's blind, but not really. He doesn't suffer from the same extremes that most blind people suffer from.[/quote']

Actually daredevil is a prime example for (and propably the main reason you can) "selling back senes" in 6E. He lost his sight, with all the information it grated. But he did get an additional/improved sense(s) to compensate, but those points came directly from his sight.

[RPMiller]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

Actually daredevil is a prime example for (and propably the main reason you can) "selling back senes" in 6E. He lost his sight' date=' with all the information it grated. But he did get an additional/improved sense(s) to compensate, but those points came directly from his sight.[/quote']

Interesting. So then how would you build the "sight" aspect of him? Are you thinking of selling his sight and buying radar sense?

[Christopher]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

Interesting. So then how would you build the "sight" aspect of him? Are you thinking of selling his sight and buying radar sense?

What his "sight" is varies between interpretations.

Sometimes it seems to be just targetting and fully discriminatory for hearing. Normal hearing is the natural first adress for an alternate targettign sense (it already has range, discriminatory and 360° Arc of perception).

In others it seems to be Spartial Awareness in the Unusual group. Active (some sort of mystic energy he emits). Expensive but hard to overcome.

Building it as radar Sense in the radio group is also an option, but I think that would not fit.

[RPMiller]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

Considering that he is able to "see" everything around him, and in complete silence, it is definitely not hearing; although, he does have enhanced hearing as well. I can't remember off the top of my head the limitations on Spatial Awareness, but I seem to recall it doesn't provide fine details, which he is able to "see." I only read Daredevil up through the early 90s, so I'm not sure what changes they may have made to him after that, nor do I know anything about Ultimate Daredevil. However, I do know that through the couple decades that I was reading him, he could always "see" pretty much everything with the exception of things like text on a page, but his sense of touch was acute enough that he could "read" the text like braille. So in terms of mechanics, he was effectively not blind. Nor did he suffer any of the combat penalties that would normally be applied to a blind person, which ultimately is where we really need to focus. Does this blind alien suffer any blind penalties either in combat or in day to day adventuring? If so, are they always applied, or just under a specific circumstance? If only under a specific circumstance, what is it? If it is when the companion is not around, then we can safely conclude that Sean Waters and your posts above, are indeed the correct way to go with this. Which brings me back to being a bit surprised that you would build Daredevil by buying off his sight, and the reason for my question. By all accounts, from a mechanics perspective, he isn't blind, but he does have a some complications that would be clumped together into a "Blind-but-not-really" complication.

[Christopher]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

So in terms of mechanics' date=' he was effectively not blind. Nor did he suffer any of the combat penalties that would normally be applied to a blind person, which ultimately is where we really need to focus. Does this blind alien suffer any blind penalties either in combat or in day to day adventuring?[/quote']

That he only has an alternative targetting sense, not an additional is the reason for the Sellback.

For all it's uses sight is also the main targetting sense. The cost of the targetting adders is mostly right for the first additional targettign sense. Even the book says "the GM should consider a costbreak after second targettign sense".

He might have been able to compensate by touch reading, but in hero terms that would need points for a detect/full sense modifier as well. Plus it might not works on grafitty/paint, if he has no idea there is something to read of if he can't touch the surface.

 

For a complete daredevil you have to buy his spartial awareness, increased hearing, increased touch and increased smell/taste.

In 5E your only option was to get a (afaik) 35 point complciation "Blind". That still meant you had to pay for all the powers, points that went for your normal power budget. Sense that weren't in addition to sight, but to replace sight.

Now with sight sellback we can actually buy a daredevil whsoe total points invested into senses (after the sellback) better fit's his utility.

[RPMiller]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

While I understand your perspective, I'm at a loss as to why you said that the complication approach was okay for the alien, but not for Daredevil. I'm still a bit baffled by that. Also, it is "Spatial Awareness" not "Spartial Awareness." And as I mentioned previously, I wouldn't have allowed the 5E "Blind" complication to be purchased for him because that is simply against the rules. You can't take a complication and then buy powers that circumvent that complication. That is a no-no. You are either blind, or you're not. However, you can be partially blind for less points, or in his case, "Not-really-blind" for a couple points. Remember in Hero we work from effect. So what is the effect that we are looking for in the character? Well, the character is blind in the sense of not being able to see colors, or read signs, but I don't want him to be hampered during combat. Okay, than he isn't blind, he just isn't able to see colors or read signs. However, the special effect will be that he looks blind and if medically examined will be shown to be blind, but that is just the special effect.

[Christopher]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

While I understand your perspective' date=' I'm at a loss as to why you said that the complication approach was okay for the alien, but not for Daredevil.[/quote']

Daredevil sells back his Sight to buy a different Targetting Sense.

The alien sells back his Sight, to buy his Sight again. On a follower/via Clairsentience, wich will likely be much cheaper than what he got for selling it back in the first place.

 

Both gain 35 points from the sellback.

Daredevil has to put most of this in his alternative targetting sense (20-30). Maybe add some Full Dscriminatory/Detect to touch to read. then add increased hearing and propably smell and taste. The net will still be aexpense, but a lot more manageable/closer the to real bonus than any complcation.

 

Well' date=' the character is blind in the sense of not being able to see colors, or read signs, but I don't want him to be hampered during combat. Okay, than he isn't blind, he just isn't able to see colors or read signs. However, the special effect will be that he looks blind and if medically examined will be shown to be blind, but that is just the special effect.[/quote']

This behavoir is exactly what "Selling back, buy your real targetting sense" approach is good for. It allows for a cleaner sheet. With a small complication, where are the limits for his alternative sense? What sight group does it belong too? How can he upgrade it?

All thise things would be to complex for a complication, but too expensive to buy as powers without the sellback.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

Here is my take:

 

DD has senses that are very acute, he just does not have sight. He probably has targeting and discriminatory on all his remaining senses, and range on touch (to sense vibration). I would probably build him that way, and sell back sight. It is easier to do that than mimic in another way the fact that sight is not something that matters to him.

 

The alien is a bit different in that it DOES have sight, or effectively does. Technically Flash targets only one target so if someone flashed the alien he could still 'see' but would be blinded if the chimpdog got flashed. If that was going to be a real issue, I would probably try and go for a more complex build, but I doubt it will be from what I have read - mind you whatever your intentions NOW, at some point, a sneaky/smart player is going to try and exploit the situation.

 

Also at some point the player is going to get chimpdog to do something for him, like undo his bonds if he has been captured, or retrieve an item from a place he can not reach himself, so I think the chimpdog has to be more than pure SFX. I would still build the actual 'sense' thing simply as a complication though, effectively the alien can sense normally, just not in some situations.

 

That SOUNDS similar to DD, but I think DD is so defined by his senses it does not make sense (pun intended) to me to build him otherwise.

[Duane From RI]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

The advice here has been worth it. The strongest sentiment I take away is that if the pet is totally under control of the player, than the fact that the pet is lending it's sight to the player does not justify the player selling back his sight. In other words, the player shouldn't get a cost break if he is going to be able to see one-way-or-another.

[RPMiller]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

Here is my take:

 

DD has senses that are very acute, he just does not have sight. He probably has targeting and discriminatory on all his remaining senses, and range on touch (to sense vibration). I would probably build him that way, and sell back sight. It is easier to do that than mimic in another way the fact that sight is not something that matters to him.

 

The alien is a bit different in that it DOES have sight, or effectively does. Technically Flash targets only one target so if someone flashed the alien he could still 'see' but would be blinded if the chimpdog got flashed. If that was going to be a real issue, I would probably try and go for a more complex build, but I doubt it will be from what I have read - mind you whatever your intentions NOW, at some point, a sneaky/smart player is going to try and exploit the situation.

 

Also at some point the player is going to get chimpdog to do something for him, like undo his bonds if he has been captured, or retrieve an item from a place he can not reach himself, so I think the chimpdog has to be more than pure SFX. I would still build the actual 'sense' thing simply as a complication though, effectively the alien can sense normally, just not in some situations.

 

That SOUNDS similar to DD, but I think DD is so defined by his senses it does not make sense (pun intended) to me to build him otherwise.

 

Which is what makes Hero so much fun. There are a million ways to achieve any given result. Of course, Hero gamers are all about the min/maxing, so it usually comes down to the numbers.

[RPMiller]

Re: Alien Species - Blind/Deaf Alien that shares senses with Dog-like pet

 

The advice here has been worth it. The strongest sentiment I take away is that if the pet is totally under control of the player' date=' than the fact that the pet is lending it's sight to the player does not justify the player selling back his sight. In other words, the player shouldn't get a cost break if he is going to be able to see one-way-or-another.[/quote']

 

That is how I would do it, given the limited information presented above, but as the others mentioned there are other factors that could play into it. But yes, you should never get points for something that isn't truly a limitation, period.