A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

[tcabril]

Just a couple of Shotgun questions/Observations from the Hero System 6th Editon Equipment Guide.

 

First I noted that there are no Shotguns listed under Nineteenth-Century weapons - which I found rather odd but I can get over this as they are listed out on pages 80 and 81 so just use those stats).

 

Where things get wonky for me is with the notes under Sawed-Off Shotguns. It states that sawed-off shotguns are AEC (Area of Effect Cone 16m) and NR (no range). This seems to be contradictory to me. On page 6E1 388 under Range Limitations it states (under the No Range Limitation) "This -1/2 Limitation represents a Ranged Power that doesn't work at Range. The character can only use the power at HTH Combat range (i.e. within his reach)"

How can there be a cone area of effect but no range?

 

What I have taken this to mean is that for sawed-off shotguns it only works within the 16m cone (or 128m area - it has been a few years since triginometry so my calculation may be off ).

 

Any thoughts?

 

Also - any thoughts on Scatterguns?

Todd

[Christopher]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

Normally when you make a Ranged Attack Area of Effect, you can place the "starting point" anywhere in the range. if you have a 16m radius with 400 reach, you can put the "center" of the aoe anywhere withint 400m of yourself. Everything 16m aroudn said center will be affected.

 

When you have a ranged attack, Aoe, No Range (or a HTH-Attack, AoE, can't add STR) the starting point has to be you. And for raduis you need personal immunity or hole in the middle.

[tcabril]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

Thanks!

That makes sense - I was figuring along the same lines but sometimes with these rules (and all the advantages and limitations coming into play...) things get a bit unclear.

Thanks again

Todd

[Sean Waters]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

One thing that might not make sense is that if you have this combination (AoE and no Range) you STILL need to roll to hit the target square i.e. the square in front of you. If you should miss then the entire attack fails. Nothing in the AoE gets hit. As far as I know it still uses a charge though.

 

I can sort of see the point: taking a limitation should not give you an advantage - not having to roll to hit the target square - but it makes very little 'logical' sense. Surely the shot goes somewhere? You COULD call it a dud cartridge or misfire, but then you need to explain why shotgun cartridges from a sawn off fail more often than from a non-sawn off.

[Christopher]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

One thing that might not make sense is that if you have this combination (AoE and no Range) you STILL need to roll to hit the target square i.e. the square in front of you. If you should miss then the entire attack fails. Nothing in the AoE gets hit. As far as I know it still uses a charge though.

 

I can sort of see the point: taking a limitation should not give you an advantage - not having to roll to hit the target square - but it makes very little 'logical' sense. Surely the shot goes somewhere? You COULD call it a dud cartridge or misfire, but then you need to explain why shotgun cartridges from a sawn off fail more often than from a non-sawn off.

The attack is vs. DCV 3. When you manage to miss that, then you propably did something that lowers your OCV considerably. Or it was just bad luck. Such things happen.

 

Other explanations for this "miss" is that something was in the way of the attack at the target or close at the source point.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

The attack is vs. DCV 3. When you manage to miss that, then you propably did something that lowers your OCV considerably. Or it was just bad luck. Such things happen.

 

Other explanations for this "miss" is that something was in the way of the attack at the target or close at the source point.

 

 

It is against DCV 0, as the square will be adjacent to you (6.2.51), but some rules are not widely known, which is why I mentioned it.

[Greywind]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

The attack is vs. DCV 3. When you manage to miss that, then you propably did something that lowers your OCV considerably. Or it was just bad luck. Such things happen.

 

Other explanations for this "miss" is that something was in the way of the attack at the target or close at the source point.

Or a bad load.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

Or a bad load.

 

Yes, but they are the same loads as the ones that the somewhat open choke jobbies use which have a thin Cone AoE at range, and they always hit somewhere even if you miss the spot you were aiming for. You are unlikely to manage an actual in-game explanation that makes sense because this is not a rule designed to accomplish in-game consistency, but rather rule balance.

[Greywind]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

Or you've gotten a shell that got wet.

 

Ever see The Road Warrior when his shot fizzled in the gun?

[Christopher]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

Or you pulled the trigger to early/weren't prepared for the recoil. Thus it goes into the ceiling.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

Or you've gotten a shell that got wet.

 

Ever see The Road Warrior when his shot fizzled in the gun?

 

The trouble is that any explanation you can give will apply (or could apply) equally to the same shells fired from a different gun - but the effect is not the same. A SoS will have a higher proportion of 'failed shots' than the same cartridges fired from a different weapon, purely because of this rule.

[Greywind]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

Any explanation should be based on the situation only. The only thing that should be done is that it fit with what is going on at the time and fit cinematically. Old rounds, bad rounds, failure to properly charge, accidental discharge. The effect changes with the weapon.

[Tom Carman]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

Unless Ed.6 changed it for some reason, no, your missed AoE attack doesn't just "go away". The attack is subject to the scattering rule: roll 1d6 to determine the direction it shifted, and I think the target effect moved a hex for each 1-2 the attack roll was missed by. Since the shotgun is Zero Range Cone, you can ignore that last part. So... fumble your attack with your sawed-off shotgun and you might have just blasted the guy standing next to you, or even behind you.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

OK. I was just mentioning the rule. That some people don't know about. Why that happens in game is up to you. I pointed out in my first post that you could call it a dud or misfire.

 

Maybe this will demonstrate the oddness:

 

Field Of Fire

Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Area Of Effect (32m Radius; +1) (82 Active Points); No Range (-1/2) 55 real

 

This character is surrounded by a field of fire that burns everything within 32m of him for 2d6 killing damage.

 

You STILL have to roll to hit DCV 0 (your own space), or the entire attack fails. You can decide that your power is intermittent to explain the rule, you can decide what you like, but the point is that the combination of AoE and no Range has consequences that not everyone is aware of, and probably do not accord with their intentions for the power. If it can scatter (albeit within HtH range) then it always works, but might move a metre this way or that - which will likely have no practical downside.

 

Rules that are little used or known - it makes you wonder if there is any real need for them.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

Unless Ed.6 changed it for some reason' date=' no, your missed AoE attack doesn't just "go away". The attack is subject to the scattering rule: roll 1d6 to determine the direction it shifted, and I think the target effect moved a hex for each 1-2 the attack roll was missed by. Since the shotgun is Zero Range Cone, you can ignore that last part. So... fumble your attack with your sawed-off shotgun and you might have just blasted the guy standing next to you, or even behind you.[/quote']

 

 

6.1.320

 

If a character has a No Range Area Of Effect

attack, he still must make an Attack Roll (against

DCV 0, since the target point’s either himself or a

point adjacent to himself) to hit the target point

unless the GM rules otherwise. If he misses, the

attack has no effect on anyone whatsoever — since

the power has No Range, the normal rules for

determining the “location” of a missed Area affecting

attack don’t apply.

 

 

...which is why I am pointing the rule out because it took me by surprise.

[Christopher]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

Field Of Fire

Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Area Of Effect (32m Radius; +1) (82 Active Points); No Range (-1/2) 55 real

 

This character is surrounded by a field of fire that burns everything within 32m of him for 2d6 killing damage.

 

You STILL have to roll to hit DCV 0 (your own space), or the entire attack fails. You can decide that your power is intermittent to explain the rule, you can decide what you like, but the point is that the combination of AoE and no Range has consequences that not everyone is aware of, and probably do not accord with their intentions for the power. If it can scatter (albeit within HtH range) then it always works, but might move a metre this way or that - which will likely have no practical downside.

 

Rules that are little used or known - it makes you wonder if there is any real need for them.

How about this:

Consdier the madatory Attack Roll a form of "required Roll". Every power has that. Even if the roll goes down to OCV vs. DCV 0, it still is there. if you fail the roll, you fail to actiavte the power but still expend everything you can expend.

[Tom Carman]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

Yet another example of 6th "fixing" things that aren't actually broken. Collateral damage is a perfectly reasonable (not to mention common) outcome of fumbling an area effect attack.

[Christopher]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

Yet another example of 6th "fixing" things that aren't actually broken. Collateral damage is a perfectly reasonable (not to mention common) outcome of fumbling an area effect attack.

The problem with the "missing an attack" rule with AoE radius is, that no mater how badly you miss your attack will still hit exaclty the point you aimed for. Because there was no distance between you and the target point.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

The problem with the "missing an attack" rule with AoE radius is' date=' that no mater how badly you miss your attack will still hit exaclty the point you aimed for. Because there was no distance between you and the target point.[/quote']

 

Well yes, but with cones at least it is easy to scatter; you scatter at the other end of the cone, so you can still hit something you had not intended to without getting what might - to some - seem like a daft result.

 

It does not address the 'radius' problem though, but even that can be done; work out your scatter as if the power was ranged and superimpose the actual area using your character as a centre and the 'theoretical' area using the scattered centre point. Only where the two overlap is actually affected.

 

So I can see why a rule is necessary: you should not benefit from perfect accuracy just because you took a limitation but I do not think the rule works well to accomplish a reasonable result. I'm not saying my suggestions are best options, but I am saying there are other options.

[Christopher]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

Well yes' date=' but with cones at least it is easy to scatter; you scatter at the other end of the cone, so you can still hit something you had not intended to without getting what might - to some - seem like a daft result.[/quote']

That could lead to rather odd situations.

Like the one fumble where you aim at the foes before you and hit the team standing behind you.

 

It does not address the 'radius' problem though' date=' but even that can be done; work out your scatter as if the power was ranged and superimpose the actual area using your character as a centre and the 'theoretical' area using the scattered centre point. Only where the two overlap is actually affected.[/quote']

Scatter is based on the distance the shoot had to travel between Origin Point and Target Point. And power that has no range should not even travel on a fumble.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

...

 

 

Scatter is based on the distance the shoot had to travel between Origin Point and Target Point. And power that has no range should not even travel on a fumble.

 

 

I think we best go back and read the rule, because I'm pretty sure it is based on "Amount you missed the roll by x 2m", and has nothing to do with how far you are shooting.

[Christopher]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

I think we best go back and read the rule' date=' because I'm pretty sure it is based on "Amount you missed the roll by x 2m", and has nothing to do with how far you are shooting.[/quote']

Looked again. It's really 2m/1 point miss, but maximum "halve distance to the target". Odd, I was certain there was a rule based on distance somewhere.

 

Re-read your idea. This superimpose and it only works where the original and new areas work might be an idea.

 

But it#s not quite true that you get "absolute accuracy" because of the No Range Limitation. The same 0 DCV applies if you target your fireball at an adjacent hex.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

I think that the fumble (for ammo at least) is that you shoot the ground before you.

[Tom Carman]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

Standard Hero System ruling: a Limitation that doesn't limit you is worth nothing. Also: The GM may prevent absurdities; some of these contrary hypotheticals smell of munchinkinism to me. No Range and Personal Immunity can easily be a munchkin construction. Were I making the rulings, I would be inclined to ignore the Personal Immunity in case of fumbles. And if the No Range Cone fumbled and then scattered in the same direction of the intended attack, I would likely say "OK, but the Cone effect starts IN your hex, not in the adjacent one."

[Christopher]

Re: A bit of clarification needed with sawed-off shotguns

 

Standard Hero System ruling: a Limitation that doesn't limit you is worth nothing.

No range means you can't use it at range. The rule that you target adjacent Hexes at DCV 0 has nothing to do with that Limitation.

A Blast, AoE

benefits as much from it as

A Blast, AoE, no range

 

No Range and Personal Immunity can easily be a munchkin construction.

It a common "hit everyone around me" build. I see nothing munchkin in a Frost Nova, Schock Nova or similar "hit everyone around me" attack.