6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

The Amazing Rhialto and his muggle sidekicks.

 

 

Ars Magica!

[Tasha]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Ars Magica!

 

Of course with Ars Magica the game was setup that way with the Players each having a powerful mage and a few lesser powered "grogs". With one player each adventure playing a Mage and everyone else playing a Grog. It always struck me that a Justice League Champions game would play nearly the same. ex with it being Superman and his Amazing (no where near my powerlevel) friends.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Of course with Ars Magica the game was setup that way with the Players each having a powerful mage and a few lesser powered "grogs". With one player each adventure playing a Mage and everyone else playing a Grog. It always struck me that a Justice League Champions game would play nearly the same. ex with it being Superman and his Amazing (no where near my powerlevel) friends.

 

Don't forget the Companion.

 

The way the Buffy game is set up reminds me of Ars Magica. At least as described, haven't read it.

 

I think Ars Magica Hero might actually be an interesting set up. I have the first edition of the game, and I've found the basic ideas for running a campaign interesting, but only did a bit of play testing with my gaming group of the time with it.

[Markdoc]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Ars Magica!

 

Yeah, the Ars Magica connection occurred to me too.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

That assumes that the GM doesn't allocate points to take the house into account. Or that once play starts that you keep worrying about how many points are in the pool. People get so rigid about points. I use equipment pools to define STARTING equipment. After play starts what spells the PC's have access to' date=' Magic items they encounter and what money they get are controlled by ME the GM. So I don't really worry about the equipment pool after the first game. When/if we add someone new I figure out how many points of equipment that a Noob should have so they aren't overshadowed by the PCs.[/quote']

 

Huh. That's genuinely new angle: I've never heard of another GM using resource pools like that. In all of our game, as noted by others upthread, the resource pool has been used as your stash, or what you could carry/use. As several others comment, in our experience it works OK to represent resources the PCs can draw on (like an armoury, for example).

 

How do you manage magic if you use the resource pool for that, but don't track it after Chargen? Maybe it's better to think of it not as a resource pool, but rather just a set of points given at Chargen that can only be spent a specific way?

 

If you allow Players to write up any spell using any power they like and lose the guts to say No it's your fault as GM. I always make it crystal clear that my first OK is provisional and that if during play something turns out to be unbalanced. I will ask that the item/spell be changed to be more balanced.

 

I think we are pretty much all agreed that this aspect is key to setting up magic systems in FH.

 

cheers, Mark

[Manic Typist]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Because if the dagger is 5 character points' date=' and the warhorse as a follower is 5 character points, then something must be taken out of the pool before something else can be put in.[/quote']

 

Well, first, that's a false dichotomy (unless the character just has a 5 point Resource Pool). It's a choice between the horse, the knife, or the enchanted battleaxe, or the tent that heals all those who sleep in it... or.... or... etc. So, yes, at a certain point you hit a limit, which is the point. You cannot have everything on you at all times.

 

 

I think we are all assuming that this is in fact what a resource pool does: create an artificial limit as to what a character can stash. Is there some other sort of resource pool?

 

Yes, but (and keep in mind I could be misremembering the rules right now, I don't have the books on hand at the moment so please correct me if I'm wrong), but the "stash" (forget the term, perhaps that is the pool itself) is limitless. You can add things to it infinitely as you find them, as long as you can find a way to store them/GM allows it etc.

 

The artificial limit comes in what the character can carry on his or her person (as opposed to using Encumbrance). Which is the point, and returns to my first point above. However, if I messed the rules up, that's entirely the point.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Huh. That's genuinely new angle: I've never heard of another GM using resource pools like that. In all of our game, as noted by others upthread, the resource pool has been used as your stash, or what you could carry/use. As several others comment, in our experience it works OK to represent resources the PCs can draw on (like an armoury, for example).

 

How do you manage magic if you use the resource pool for that, but don't track it after Chargen? Maybe it's better to think of it not as a resource pool, but rather just a set of points given at Chargen that can only be spent a specific way?

 

I think we are pretty much all agreed that this aspect is key to setting up magic systems in FH.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I am thinking that too many people are rigid in their thinking about points and having to pay for everything.

 

We treat magic like equipment. Something that is found, bought or created. All that is required is Luck, Money or Time. How do I prevent the proliferation of "too much Magic" or "Too Much Equipment into the game". One way is to not give them any new spells or items. The other way is to think about what effect a magic item or spell will have on the campaign before it's introduced into the game. If the Flaming Greatsword of Cleaving too powerful, I will tone it down before it appears in the NPC's hands. Actually for FH I tend to not give many magic items at all or if I do it tends to be things like Bags of Holding, that don't change the powerlevel of combat.

 

Why don't spell casters just take over when their spellbooks start bursting with Hundreds of spells. Usually we use spell pools for how many points of magical spells the caster can use (sometimes paid for in base char points, sometimes dealt with like an equipment pool). This pool is only for what they can load up with for the day. They could have a bunch of spells in their "spell Book" that they could trade into the pool with given the time. Spell systems are the thing that take the longest, are rarely detailed by GM's and are the thing that usually give the most grief for both players and GMs. Sometimes GM's overlimit magic to the point where playing a caster just isn't fun. Sometimes they don't do much to write up the system and complain when the Players write up spells that are a bit overpowered. Though, allowing 75 point spells into a game where fighters throw less than 45pt attacks is just foolish and the GM's own fault when the casters dominate.

 

 

I don't usually worry about equipment in any game beyond char gen. Using the Encumberance rules and simple common sense, says that you can't carry that 2 handed sword + Great Axe +10 daggers hidden on their person + Full Plate armor+ full pack with rope, pitons, cast iron pot etc) without being totally bogged down by the weight.

[gojira]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Huh. That's genuinely new angle: I've never heard of another GM using resource pools like that.

 

Yeah I was intrigued also. I was thinking of doing something similar, although I've never tried it. What I was thinking of is to allow players to buy "starting wealth" with points. It doesn't affect wealth or pool afterwards, but it does allow a player to buy more things when making a new character.

 

Actually plain ol' wealth might just be the answer. Not a pool at all, but a fudgey character concept adjudicated by the GM. It explains why the Paladin always has a shiny suit of plate mail, even when his last one got dinged up in a fight, while the Druid sleeps out under the stars, eats twigs and berries, and is still wearing that same stinky robe he started in.

[Tasha]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Yeah I was intrigued also. I was thinking of doing something similar, although I've never tried it. What I was thinking of is to allow players to buy "starting wealth" with points. It doesn't affect wealth or pool afterwards, but it does allow a player to buy more things when making a new character.

 

Actually plain ol' wealth might just be the answer. Not a pool at all, but a fudgey character concept adjudicated by the GM. It explains why the Paladin always has a shiny suit of plate mail, even when his last one got dinged up in a fight, while the Druid sleeps out under the stars, eats twigs and berries, and is still wearing that same stinky robe he started in.

 

1d6 Transform dinged up dirty armor >for shiny clean undinged up armor (A Paladin power I usually have my Pallys run around with) (consistant, 0 end, Persistant, always on)

 

Also, Physical limitation (dimly glows) -4 Stealth/Personal Concealment Common/slightly limiting (The group I played with just loved to hate the last one) It makes the paladin dimly glow in the dark (showing their holyness, kind of like the paladin warhorse effect, but less smokelike) It also ended up any discussions where the rest of the party wanted to sneak into anywhere at night. It was VERY fun in play.

[Markdoc]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Well' date=' first, that's a false dichotomy (unless the character just has a 5 point Resource Pool). It's a choice between the horse, the knife, or the enchanted battleaxe, or the tent that heals all those who sleep in it... or.... or... etc. So, yes, at a certain point you hit a limit, which is the point. You cannot have everything on you at all times.[/quote']

 

Actually, it is a real problem, which frequently arises in a game. It's particularly problematic in Fantasy, because "find the dingus" is a commonly-used trope in heroic games. In other heroic games - say, cyberpunk, or pulp heroes - the dingus is more likely to be cash, or a clue or an item of significance ... but not a weapon or similar tool, as it often is in Fantasy. In addition, in such games PCs are likely to have lots of different equipment, so one time you want a sniper rifle another time you want an SMG, sometimes you want bugging gear ... etc. Fantasy PCs tend to have one or two standard weapons and little in the way of variable gear, so a good chunk of the pool is always spoken for with the same stuff. And finally, other games tend not to have archtypes where one archetype has a clear access to powers over the others (though we did have that problems in a short Star Wars game: everybody wanted to be a Jedi ...).

 

The problem arises because in the course of play, the characters often acquire some gear: it doesn't have to be a huge bag o' magic goodies: a warhorse, lance, armour, bow, sword and shield eats up a deal of points. So the PC gears up, and of course he takes as much as he can of useful stuff ... which means inevitably that when he finds something ... he can't carry or use it.

 

There are a number of potential solutions, and we tried out all of them, I think

The first was to exclude mundane equipment: only magic equipment and spells went in the pool. That was a clear failure (for us). None of the GMs in our group tended not to run games with masses of magic freebies, so it simply made spellcasters even more powerful: the exact opposite of what we wanted.

We then tried making the pool larger, so that there was space for mundane equipment. That worked no better - it still gave spellcasters an extra boost, and just meant that for mundane gear there was no practical limit beyond encumbrance

We then tried pools only for gear (no spells) ... that was better, but ran into minor versions of the same problems. If the pool was small, it led to logical confusion when people could not fit things that logically they could carry into their pool. If it was large, the pool became irrelevant.

And last of all, we went with GM fiat, where McGuffins were given by the GM to "the party" and didn't go into anyone's pool ... at which point we realised that once again the pool had become irrelevant.

 

At that point, we experimented a bit with tweaking pools, but more or less gave up on them for Fantasy. We did use them for other genres, where they proved much less problematic. We've never tried Tasha's suggestion of using them just for starting equipment/powers - but then we've never had a problem with starting equipment: PCs start out with what we consider "reasonable" given their background and wealth.

 

The background to all of this is that we converted our various fantasy games over to Hero system before the Fantasy hero book was written. And our bias was absolutely for campaigns that would run for longer periods of time (this whole deal is not so much of an issue for short games).

 

Coming from Supers the first attempts were "you pay points for your skills and powers" regardless of whether your power was a sword or a spell. That was resounding failure in terms of balance: spellcasters absolutely ruled. We tweaked the rules in multiple ways - including some which were quite radical for the time, including experimenting with pools, or with giving different PCs different numbers of points, or ignoring points to some degree - but we all failed to make anything that resembled "traditional" fantasy or which gave a game that would stay balanced over time. In the end, the thing that worked - and the only thing that worked - was creating magic systems which placed some hindrances to the use of magic. There's lots of ways to do that, but how you decide to do it pretty much shapes your game.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

I am thinking that too many people are rigid in their thinking about points and having to pay for everything.

 

We treat magic like equipment. Something that is found, bought or created. All that is required is Luck, Money or Time. How do I prevent the proliferation of "too much Magic" or "Too Much Equipment into the game". One way is to not give them any new spells or items. The other way is to think about what effect a magic item or spell will have on the campaign before it's introduced into the game. If the Flaming Greatsword of Cleaving too powerful, I will tone it down before it appears in the NPC's hands. Actually for FH I tend to not give many magic items at all or if I do it tends to be things like Bags of Holding, that don't change the powerlevel of combat.

 

I don't think the problem being discussed is so much about equipment: certainly that hasn't been a problem in most of the games we have played. I give away relatively few magic items (maybe a dozen or so in the course of the last 5 year campaign, 4 or 5 in the 4-5 year campaign before that). The flipside is that those magic items I do give away acquire great significance, but that's OK: I let the PCs get them because I want the PCs to have them.

 

The problem from my point of view is player balance. That's always a difficult area, but in general (not always, but in general) most players will have less fun if their PC is significantly overshadowed by other PCs. (As an aside, we're having exactly this problem in our Pathfinder game: my wife confided in me after the last game that she has been considering dropping out because she was sick of her character being relegated to a support role: the GM agreed to let me rebuild her PC). It is a real issue.

 

Why don't spell casters just take over when their spellbooks start bursting with Hundreds of spells. Usually we use spell pools for how many points of magical spells the caster can use (sometimes paid for in base char points' date=' sometimes dealt with like an equipment pool). This pool is only for what they can load up with for the day. They could have a bunch of spells in their "spell Book" that they could trade into the pool with given the time. Spell systems are the thing that take the longest, are rarely detailed by GM's and are the thing that usually give the most grief for both players and GMs. Sometimes GM's overlimit magic to the point where playing a caster just isn't fun. Sometimes they don't do much to write up the system and complain when the Players write up spells that are a bit overpowered. Though, allowing 75 point spells into a game where fighters throw less than 45pt attacks is just foolish and the GM's own fault when the casters dominate.[/quote']

 

Actually, I had a PC with spells in the last game north of 90 active points (and a multipower of spells) ... which was never a problem, because the magic system was set up to accommodate powerful spellcasters from the get-go. And it can't have been that the system was crippling, because in the last game we had:

A rogue-type with no magical powers whatever, but martial arts

A big, strong merchant-adventurer with two minor non-combat cantrips.

A weather mage with almost no combat skills, but very high active point spells

A jack of all trades with some moderately powerful magic (especially healing) but also decent combat prowess

A minor noble bard-type with no magic: a good face-man but also a decent fighter ... he found a mentor and started to learn magic in the last year or so of the campaign

A two-sword fighting warrior with one minor (non combat) cantrip.

A minor noble with fey heritage and useful but unreliable magic.

An archer, with no magic (although she also began to learn magic in the campaign's last year or so)

 

So we had a mix of PCs across the spectrum from "Awesome Magical Power!" to "Can manage a minor cantrip" to "No magic at all" - and they were all balanced. Everybody got a chance to shine, everybody contributed to making the team greater than the sum of its parts. And these PCs started on 125 points and grew to (IIRC) over 350 over the course of the game, which meant that the balance held for years of play.

 

And we actually had 5 different magic systems running in that game!

As you say, it's all about design. As I've noted several times, for Fantasy, nothing is more important than getting magic design right, to give the game the feel you want and to give it the balance you want. And that goes double for low fantasy.

 

I don't usually worry about equipment in any game beyond char gen. Using the Encumberance rules and simple common sense' date=' says that you can't carry that 2 handed sword + Great Axe +10 daggers hidden on their person + Full Plate armor+ full pack with rope, pitons, cast iron pot etc) without being totally bogged down by the weight.[/quote']

 

Yeah, as noted, this isn't really the problem: I use both encumbrance and LTE rules, so players voluntarily limit the amount of armour and gear their PCs carry in my games. The toughest fighter in the group had a plate harness ... which she ended up never wearing, because for adventuring, a chain byrnie and light helm was far more practical.

 

cheers, Mark

[Manic Typist]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Actually' date=' it is a real problem, which frequently arises in a game. [/quote']

 

I never said it wasn't a problem; however the dichotomy was and remains false. It wasn't a choice between two things, it was the sum of several choices that weren't presented in the example.

 

There's no requirement that the PCs be unable to pick up stuff if necessary- just like if PCs in a Dark Champs game find a "dingus" (say a LAW) while they are fully kitted out for a major battle- they can pick it up and use it during that fight.... but they can't keep adding it on top of their normal carrying capacity.

 

If there is some plot essential MacGuffin, I seriously doubt it would be unbalancing to exempt it from the normal pool rules. Unless of course the item itself is unbalancing, but that's a different animal- and maybe not a serious problem, since aren't MacGuffins sometimes MacGuffins because they are unbalancing?

 

So, I guess I return to asking why this:

The problem arises because in the course of play, the characters often acquire some gear: it doesn't have to be a huge bag o' magic goodies: a warhorse, lance, armour, bow, sword and shield eats up a deal of points. So the PC gears up, and of course he takes as much as he can of useful stuff ... which means inevitably that when he finds something ... he can't carry or use it.

....a problem, IF you agree that there needs to be some sort of practical limit to how much PCs carry?

[Markdoc]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

So, I guess I return to asking why this:

 

....a problem, IF you agree that there needs to be some sort of practical limit to how much PCs carry?

 

PCs have (in my opinion) a natural limit on how much they can carry - which is dictated by encumbrance and common sense (a player might be able to lift and carry a pike, for example, but in many cases it's going to be problem due to its length). As noted, I (and most of the GM's I game with) keep an eye on this to avoid the leather Tardis problem.

 

The problem with resource pools is precisely that they have nothing to do with encumbrance, or indeed, any form of carrying capacity. If you have a situation where a character can pick up, carry and use a two-handed battle axe, but not a small paper scroll "because he's got too much stuff" then it causes a logical fallacy*. You could just say "Guys, it's a game balance issue: get over it" - and one of my friends did do that for a while but the issue cropped up frequently enough that he abandoned the pool concept in the end. There are other, better ways to address the game balance issue, IMO.

 

*We had this conversation in a cyberpunk game a few years back:

PC1 "OK, you're taking an assault rifle with a grenade launcher, right? After last time, make sure to take some AP grenades."

PC2 "I can't. I can carry AP grenades or fragmentation grenades but not both. Why do you think I didn't have any AP grenades last time?"

PC1. "But you can carry as many frag grenades as you want?"

PC2 "Up to 15, yup."

PC1 "So you can carry 15 grenades, but only as long as they are the same type? That's retarded."

 

And you know? PC1 had a point.

In contrast, I've never had a problem with pointing out "Dude, that weighs 100 kilos - yes you can lift it, but you're going to burn all your LTE and be exhausted before you can walk a kilometer". Carrying capacity isn't the problem.

 

cheers, Mark

[Manic Typist]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Fair point.

[Manic Typist]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Though I call uncool on the use of the word "retarded" in that context.

[Markdoc]

Re: 6E - Low Fantasy Hero - Game Balance Issues - Advice Requested

 

Though I call uncool on the use of the word "retarded" in that context.

 

Fair enough, but it is what he said (PC1 actually posts to the board occasionally, so his name is redacted to spare the guilty )

 

cheers, Mark