Summon vs. Follower

[Zeropoint]

So I was thinking about all the various types of characters who can create more or less disposable minions, and Summon sure seems to be the power for that. However, there's that pesky "task" restriction which is extremely restrictive in combat--if I'm a necromancer making skeletons to guard my lair, I don't want them deciding to clock out after a single turn of combat!

 

I started thinking about Followers, who last more or less forever, and compared the costs, and found it bit surprising that they're the same "1/5 of the minion's points". That seems very high for a creature that's only going to get three or four swings in before disappearing.

 

Am I missing something? Is there a way to make Summoned beings stick around until they get destroyed? How does this work when using Summon to represent launching a missile or something? I guess you could say that after a few phases, the missile runs out of fuel and self-destructs, but something like a Tomahawk sure has more endurance than that.

 

Anyway, your thoughts would be appreciated.

[Arc Esu]

Re: Summon vs. Follower

 

I think APG has rules to double the number of tasks a Summoned creature performs for a +1/4 Advantage. However, if you want a truly permanent being you should buy it as a Follower, because otherwise you could spent months using Summon over and over again and eventually have an endless army for a relatively low cost. As a plot device for a villain that works fine, but not so much for a PC.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Summon vs. Follower

 

6e v1 p 290 allows a +1/4 advantage to double the tasks of any amicable being. And Summon does not permit you to keep summoning more creatures. See p 289. There is a "GM's Option" to let the Summoner just keep summoning, but "an endless army for a relatively low cost" is not appropriate to PC or NPC in my view.

 

Differences between followers and summons? Summoned beings generally do as they're told. Followers won't tolerate poor treatment any more than any other NPC. A dead Summon can be resummoned. A dead follower is dead - see p 103, 6e V1. Permanent loss of the character points spent is one option, although GM's option to recruit another follower of the same points which "typically takes a long time and should be roleplayed" is noted.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Summon vs. Follower

 

Followers only last until you kill them, and then you can only replace them with GM cooperation and some considerable effort: summoned minions last until you kill them or they complete their allotted tasks BUT you can summon them back even if they are killed, whenever you want. Also I think you can renew a summoning before their allotted tasks are up to refill the task-pot. I would probably (PROBABLY - have not thought it right through yet) allow you to make your summon constant, and not deplete the number of tasks you can give whilst the summon is running.

[Christopher]

Re: Summon vs. Follower

 

If this is for a NPC, just put skeletons in his lair. Not followers, not summons. Just skeletons that are there.

Like Ogre has Viper agents during his bank heist.

They aren't his, he didn't pay for them. They are just there to make the battle marginally more intersting for the heroes.

 

So I was thinking about all the various types of characters who can create more or less disposable minions' date=' and Summon sure seems to be the power for that. However, there's that pesky "task" restriction which is extremely restrictive in combat--if I'm a necromancer making skeletons to guard my lair, I don't want them deciding to clock out after a single turn of combat![/quote']

Skeletons are usually built as automatons, wich means you need "Slavishly Loyal" on any Summon for them (+1). That gives you [Your Ego Score] Tasks for any EGO-Contest you win (can be incresed futher with core rule advantages). Keep in mind that you can just re-roll ego-contest after the tasks run out (but at a cumulative -1 per contest).

Or re-summon them from scratch every few weeks to reset the Ego-contest penalty. Who said your evil undead army does not needs maintenance?

For those guys I think the tasks simulate the magic running out, them literally suffering from "wear and tear". And you can always give your aprentice(s) the job to maintain the low level skelleton army while you deal with the big stuff.

 

I started thinking about Followers, who last more or less forever, and compared the costs, and found it bit surprising that they're the same "1/5 of the minion's points". That seems very high for a creature that's only going to get three or four swings in before disappearing.

 

Am I missing something? Is there a way to make Summoned beings stick around until they get destroyed? How does this work when using Summon to represent launching a missile or something? I guess you could say that after a few phases, the missile runs out of fuel and self-destructs, but something like a Tomahawk sure has more endurance than that.

 

Anyway, your thoughts would be appreciated.

There are three ways to get an extra Sheet with own actions into the game:

Duplication.

Summon.

Followers.

 

Duplicats are under direct controll, but also the least "replaceable" of the three.

Followers are somewhat replaceable, but also only somewhat under controll. They are most often real characters.

Summons are totally replaceable. But also under the weakest form of controll.

 

For your necromancer:

Use summon for some "instant", weak throwaway minons.

Use follwoers for the powerfull undead bodyguard that takes time to repalce. Or your evil necromancer apprentice (and his summons/followers).

If that would be not enough of a chalenge, just place fill-in skeletons in his base. He does not needs to pay for those (maybe not even hsi base). They are only there to make the adventure worthwhile. On the other hand he does not has those resources when he is driven out of hsi base.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Summon vs. Follower

 

So I was thinking about all the various types of characters who can create more or less disposable minions, and Summon sure seems to be the power for that. However, there's that pesky "task" restriction which is extremely restrictive in combat--if I'm a necromancer making skeletons to guard my lair, I don't want them deciding to clock out after a single turn of combat!

 

Is that limiting of a definition of "task" explicit in the rules? Seems to me "kill them" or "kill anyone who comes into this area" are tasks.

[Christopher]

Re: Summon vs. Follower

 

Is that limiting of a definition of "task" explicit in the rules? Seems to me "kill them" or "kill anyone who comes into this area" are tasks.

By the rules a task "should constitute one day of continous service or one phase in combat".

[Zeropoint]

Re: Summon vs. Follower

 

So if that scene from Clash of the Titans (Jason and the Argonauts? err, it was a Harryhausen film, I know that much) where the sorcery summons up a bunch of skeletons to fight Our Heroes--if that were modeled in the Hero system, the adventuring party wouldn't have to BEAT the skeletons, just block and doge for a turn or so until they all poofed away . . . doesn't seem like good genre modeling to me.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Summon vs. Follower

 

By the rules a task "should constitute one day of continous service or one phase in combat".

 

That's just plain stupid.

[Christopher]

Re: Summon vs. Follower

 

So if that scene from Clash of the Titans (Jason and the Argonauts? err' date=' it was a Harryhausen film, I know that much) where the sorcery summons up a bunch of skeletons to fight Our Heroes--if that were modeled in the Hero system, the adventuring party wouldn't have to BEAT the skeletons, just block and doge for a turn or so until they all poofed away . . . doesn't seem like good genre modeling to me.[/quote']

A nice interpretation, that has no connect to the rules whatsoever.

 

Facts:

Skelletons as I understand them need Slavishly Loyal (+1).

Slavishly loyal means 1 Task/point of EGO of the summoner

The summoner can re-try the ego-contest as often as he likes, +1 to the summons throw per succeded test.

It is 1 Task per phase of the summon, not per segment.

Summon can be re-used.

 

Asuming fast skelletons (SPD 4) and a EGO 12 Caster they have about 3 Turns per ego contest. And a SPD 4 they will likely have a general combat power too big to just "Block until they fail".

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Summon vs. Follower

 

Not to mention that the PC's have no way of telling whether the skeletons are Summoned, Transformed ("dead skeleton to loyal automaton servant") or just plot devices (undead minions just waiting around for an evil leader to commend them).

[Zeropoint]

Re: Summon vs. Follower

 

The simulationist in me does not like the idea that different characters in the game are playing by different rules. I realize that in practical terms, the GM needs to take shortcuts in order to create an adventure in a reasonable amount of time, but at the same time it seems like any mechanism by which one character can acquire a horde of long-lasting skeletons should be be available to any other character as well.

 

I suppose that with a number of tasks equal to the summoner's EGO with the option to attempt to reset the counter, it's not TOO bad, but Summon still doesn't look like a very attractive power to me in most cases. A matter of personal taste, I suppose.

[Christopher]

Re: Summon vs. Follower

 

The simulationist in me does not like the idea that different characters in the game are playing by different rules. I realize that in practical terms, the GM needs to take shortcuts in order to create an adventure in a reasonable amount of time, but at the same time it seems like any mechanism by which one character can acquire a horde of long-lasting skeletons should be be available to any other character as well.

 

I suppose that with a number of tasks equal to the summoner's EGO with the option to attempt to reset the counter, it's not TOO bad, but Summon still doesn't look like a very attractive power to me in most cases. A matter of personal taste, I suppose.

You aren't chaging how he aquires skeletons. You just add more villains to his group for this adventure.

The same way you decide to throw Ogre, Armadillo and Talisman against the group, you decide to only throw Ogre and 10 Viper agents against them, or Ogre with the talisman of "Hurq" wich increases his powers far enough to chalange the group (as long as he has it). Or just Ogre for a easy battle.

 

At one time they have to thwart a single thief. The next time a whole thives guild.

You won't build the thieves guild as a character that has to buy all the major and minor members as "Followers". You wirte up a bunch of major characters with thier resources and a few classes of minor members to instantiate a dozens of times. Then you give conditions for a "victory" (at 3/4 of their leadership beign dead/fleeing/in prision).

[Ice9]

Re: Summon vs. Follower

 

That's just plain stupid.

Agreed. I mean, I can understand treating each combat as a separate task, that's kinda reasonable. But when you're talking about literally an entire day vs a few seconds, that's too big a disconnect for me. However, I could see modifying how many "tasks" something took by what it was. For example:

* Basic - 1 task

* Tedious or Difficult - 2 tasks

* Unpleasant or Slightly Dangerous - 3 tasks

* Significantly Dangerous - 5 tasks

 

What category something falls into is going to vary by the summoned thing. For example, I'm pretty sure a demon would consider "work in a soup kitchen for a day (without doing anything evil)" to be more tasks than "kill these guys who can't even really injure you".

If you were doing it this way, it might make sense to have "Slavishly Devoted" make everything just cost 1 task, instead of increasing the total number.