Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

[esampson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

You can do that as well. Sure. Nothing wrong with it.

 

However this has nothing to do with Contacts or Summons/Followers.

[Greywind]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

No. This had to do with Mary Marvel calling the League for help and Superman answering the call. Teammates, in most cases, are not followers or sidekicks. They are a default contact for being on a team. Whether it is information or a call for help, each and everyone on a team is a full-blown Contact with an implied, high-ass roll.

[esampson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

You require PC's to purchase other PC's as contacts?

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

I believe he is saying no, but they get each other as contacts anyway, because that's what a team does.

[esampson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Ok, but this all came about because of the concept of Lois Lane paying points for Superman as a Contact, which is fine if all she want's to do is ask his advice, get him to give her interviews, and things like that (and he's an NPC).

[Greywind]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

I believe he is saying no' date=' but they get each other as contacts anyway, because that's what a team does.[/quote']

Yes

Ok' date=' but this all came about because of the concept of Lois Lane paying points for Superman as a Contact, which is fine if all she want's to do is ask his advice, get him to give her interviews, and things like that (and he's an NPC).[/quote']

Lois would have Superman as a contact. After all, she's the only one that interviews him. As for him showing up to save her: LOIS IS ON SUPERMAN'S SHEET FOR THAT.

[esampson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

We are discussing building Lois as a character.

 

Sorry, you can't just say that they have a relationship with an NPC where the NPC is forced to appear and save the character at a moment's notice because of limitations on the NPC's sheets. Limitations applied to NPC's (DNPC's, Followers, Summoned creatures, etc.) have to be limitations that affect their value to the player. Limitations such as 'Slavishly Devoted to Character' do not reduce the value of those NPCs.

 

If you are trying to make Lois as a character and you want her to be able to reliably call upon Superman to come save her she needs to spend points on something more significant than 'Contact'.

 

(If on the other hand Superman is a PC then she doesn't need to spend the points on Contact in the first place.)

[Greywind]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Build Batman at a time when Robin was his partner. More than likely, you'll have Robin as a Follower. Batman also needs to be reflected on Robin's writeup as, at least, a Contact. And you would have a Contact more than willing to do more than just offer advice if Robin needs it.

 

Lois and Superman are very much in the same situation.

[esampson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

You've got 4 possibilities in your example:

 

Possibility 1: Batman is a PC and Robin is an NPC. As you said, Batman takes Robin as a Follower. Robin, being an NPC does not need to list Batman as a Contact because he's not going to be doing anything by himself.

 

Possibility 2: Batman is an NPC and Robin is a PC. If Robin can reliably call in Batman to help him then you bet he needs to take him as a Follower for the exact same reason Batman has to take Robin as a Follower in the first example. You don't get to make a character and just give him free backup without spending some points. If Batman only goes along when the GM feels like and it isn't the majority of the time then you could probably get by with Batman as a Contact. That doesn't appear to be what Cassandra wants with the version of Lois she is building.

 

Possibility 3: Both Batman and Robin are PCs. No one needs to take anything.

 

Possibility 4: Both Batman and Robin are NPCs. Uh.....yeah. Don't worry about whether they are Followers or Contacts or anything else. Pretty sure the majority of supervillain teams in to Champions Enemies books don't buy each other as contacts or followers.

[Greywind]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

And you're metagaming it.

 

Try writing each as a character without worrying about whether or not it is a PC or an NPC.

[esampson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

That's a little silly. You write PC and NPCs differently, as in the example given with the NPC enemies who do not buy each other as Contacts or Followers.

[Greywind]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

I don't. I write each as a stand-alone character. Doesn't matter what their place is.

[ayinde]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

In my games when you by into any team you get contact for free. representing a social network they are part of. if your player can call for backup thats a summon. if a pc is known for his sidekick as far as the team goes the pc and side kick are one character so the dynamic duo would count as one pc on the super friends

[esampson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

I don't. I write each as a stand-alone character. Doesn't matter what their place is.

Then you are writing in a non-standard fashion (again, as exhibited by the NPCs in the various Villains books).

 

However, if we are going by the logic that there is no way to distinguish between a PC and an NPC rulewise then both Batman and Robin need to list each other as Followers since they can call upon each other for combat reasons.

 

Batman will also need Superman, Aquaman, Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Flash, Martian Manhunter, Black Canary, Wonder Woman, and a huge list of other people that I'm forgetting as Followers since he can call upon them to come assist him.

 

Of course before you can figure out how many points each one costs you'll have to balance each one with all of their Followers, but what's life without a challenge? At least you'll be constructing them all 'the right way'.

[ayinde]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

well the justice league/ society would just be a single summon partly controlled by gm in that he might send one heavy hitter or a small strike team of low powered heroes. if the whole league showed that should really be a big story event

[Greywind]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Then you are writing in a non-standard fashion (again, as exhibited by the NPCs in the various Villains books).

 

However, if we are going by the logic that there is no way to distinguish between a PC and an NPC rulewise then both Batman and Robin need to list each other as Followers since they can call upon each other for combat reasons.

 

Batman will also need Superman, Aquaman, Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Flash, Martian Manhunter, Black Canary, Wonder Woman, and a huge list of other people that I'm forgetting as Followers since he can call upon them to come assist him.

 

Of course before you can figure out how many points each one costs you'll have to balance each one with all of their Followers, but what's life without a challenge? At least you'll be constructing them all 'the right way'.

 

In my game however I choose to build them IS "the right way".

[esampson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

True, but if you're going to write them in a non-standard way you probably shouldn't expect everyone else to do the same.

[Greywind]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

All depends on how you define "non-standard".

 

If a GM does a character which amounts to "Blonde, blue-eyed female. COM 20. PS: Actress", is that "wrong"?

[esampson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

You know, once again we are derailing badly. I was going to post the definition for Nonstandard from thefreedictionary.com but I don't actually see it resolving the problem.

 

If you are interested in discussing the merits and problems of building PCs and NPCs exactly the same, whether PCs or NPCs should purchase each other as Contacts or Followers, or anything else we recently touched on in this derail then feel free to start a new thread and I will comment on it. Otherwise I think we are going to have to remain at an impasse.

[Greywind]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Ah, but you see Lois had a comic book at one time. That puts her in PC territory, the same as Superman. The same with Jimmy Olsen.

[RexMundi]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

She had, the second best Comic in the Flashpoint Run. Definitely PC material.

 

~Rex

[massey]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

All depends on how you define "non-standard".

 

If a GM does a character which amounts to "Blonde, blue-eyed female. COM 20. PS: Actress", is that "wrong"?

 

Lois doesn't have blonde hair. So yes.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Let me ask you this. If Mary Marvel called for help on her Justice League radio and Superman arrived' date=' would he fight Black Adam?[/quote']

 

Sure. But the question is not "how would the characters behave based on their established source material personalities". It is "how is the established source material best modeled in game". If Mary has paid no points for Superman or her radio, the GM should feel free to trash the radio and/or have Supes be unavailable for whatever reason. This is pretty typical of the source material - how often does the book's character call outside for help?

 

If she paid for the radio, it's a bit more durable, but who she can contact and what they are willing and able to do for her remains solidly within the GM's control (with leeway to player control if the person she's contacting is a PC). A contact of the PC "can occasionally help him out". Does that sound like Supe's relation with Lois? I'd say Supes has extremely useful skills and resources, access to major institutions and contacts of his own, so he's expensive just as a contact. Note also that

Contacts should never hand the solution to an adventure or dilemma to a character — they’re there to help move the adventure along when the players are stumped about how to proceed or need a little help to get through a difficult spot' date=' not to take the PCs’ place. Characters most often use Contacts to gather information, obtain equipment or money, broker deals, arrange meetings with important people, and so forth.[/quote']

 

Having Supes solve combat issues seems to me to imply the Lois campaign is centered around non-combat challenges which she would resolve with her own skills and abilities, and not around combat.

 

Seems like an Amicable Summon is the appropriate cost and mechanic to reliably have Superman come to your aid on a regular basis. He shows up, performs his allotted tasks, then is called away by an emergency or some such.

 

Would you let a PC buy a massively powerful NPC who will come to his aid on a reliable basis, because he is very loyal to the PC (an aspect of the NPC's character sheet) for a modest cost of under 25 character points? The fixed cost nature of the contact is problematic in this regard - if a 50 point character or a 750 point character carries the same cost as a contact, he should carry similar levels of benefit. If the 750 point character is massively more useful, an extra 3 points for "extremely useful skills and resources" just doesn't cut it.

[Greywind]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

Lois doesn't have blonde hair. So yes.

 

Don't recall speaking directly of Lois in that post.

[massey]

Re: Gods with Off Switches vs. Loaded Guns. DC vs. Marvel in Character Design.

 

I once decided to write up Robin with little in the way of skills and powers, but with a massive Summon for "Batman". Robin gets knocked out and dragged back to the villain's lair. He wakes up tied to a chair. He uses Summon Batman and the Caped Crusader busts in through a convenient skylight. Beats up the bad guys. Batman wouldn't even need skills. He uses his "detective" skills as soon as Robin uses the Summon.

 

It was an intellectual exercise, really. I thought it up and never actually wrote it out. It's not "wrong", but it won't play well in most campaigns. It's very situation specific.