[5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

[phoenix240]

How would you build an attack that rendered its target immaterial: unable to affect the solid world but unable to be affected by it (for the most part) and able to pass through solid matter. Basically it would be as if the target had the power Desolidifcation but with an added wrinkle: the target can't breath while under the attacks effect.

[Sean Waters]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

Desolid, useable as attack is the easy bit.

 

Simulating being unable to breathe in 5e is a bit of a nightmare, but I'd do it as a continuous NND drain (Defence being no need to breathe) to END, STUN, BODY, one at a time, uncontrolled (switched off if you become solid).

 

Something like that. I can probably do a proper write up when I get a moment.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

How would you build an attack that rendered its target immaterial: unable to affect the solid world but unable to be affected by it (for the most part) and able to pass through solid matter. Basically it would be as if the target had the power Desolidifcation but with an added wrinkle: the target can't breath while under the attacks effect.

 

Desolidification Useable As Attack, with a linked Continous NND vs Self-Contained Breathing. You'll probably need Uncontrolled on top of it, since if the target uses the Desolidification to go someplace you can't see him (jumping through a wall or such), you can't maintain the Constant powers on him.

 

This is also going to be ludicrously expensive.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

Transform: Target to Target with "Desolid, 0 END, Persistent, Always On" and "Physical Complication: Cannot breathe - takes suffocation effects at all times"

 

To be able to reliably Transform the target with a single shot will probably be at least as expensive as Desolid UAA.

 

Alternatively, Desolid UAA and Change Environment for Suffocation, which I believe is in one of the APG's.

 

The NND does not accurately match the suffocation rules, and any construct that does is hideously overpriced for its utility.

 

EDIT: 5th Ed will have to be Transform unless you're willing to import the 6e APG Change Environment rules and add a single target modifier.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

Doesn't that run afoul of the 'no using Transform to simulate other powers' rule?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

Show me a 5e power that suffocates the victim (using EXACTLY the same results as suffocation, not a kludge like a bit of NND damage every phase of the attacker).

[Sean Waters]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

Yes, and so does EDM UAA to the 'desolid chokey zone', but I just suggested that too...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

Doesn't that run afoul of the 'no using Transform to simulate other powers' rule?

 

Given Transform includes "granting him abilities he doesn’t have (such as giving a normal human wings)", "removing abilities he has (for example, getting

rid of his wings, getting rid of his Fire Blast, making him blind by removing his Sight)", and "giving to (or removing from) someone up to 20 Character Points’ worth of a Complication (possibly more, at the GM’s option) (One exception: making someone a character’s slave; that requires a Severe Transform.)" as examples of Major Transform, it seems like this approach does not violate the "duplicating another power" rule.

[Sean Waters]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

You can simulate the 5e suffocation rule in 5e, but it is a messy build. The closest I've got to a clean build is the END/STUN/BODY drain which at least works a bit like suffocation.

 

Desolidification , Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1) (110 Active Points)

PLUS

Suffocate!: Drain BODY 0 1/2d6, END/STUN/BODY one at a time (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Uncontrolled (Switched off by becoming solid; +1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Continuous (+1), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Hour; +1), No Normal Defense ([standard]; LS: No need to breathe; +1) (29 Active Points)

 

Yes there is other stuff you should have (like switching off recovery, which is awkwardly expensive), but that does pretty much what you want. The Drain does END first then STUN when there is no END then BODY when there is no STUN or END I'm assuming they are linked but at a -0 level as otherwise you are double dipping on the Uncontrolled switch off condition.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

Show me a 5e power that suffocates the victim (using EXACTLY the same results as suffocation' date=' not a kludge like a bit of NND damage every phase of the attacker).[/quote']

 

Why does it need to be exact?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

Given Transform includes "granting him abilities he doesn’t have (such as giving a normal human wings)", "removing abilities he has (for example, getting

rid of his wings, getting rid of his Fire Blast, making him blind by removing his Sight)", and "giving to (or removing from) someone up to 20 Character Points’ worth of a Complication (possibly more, at the GM’s option) (One exception: making someone a character’s slave; that requires a Severe Transform.)" as examples of Major Transform, it seems like this approach does not violate the "duplicating another power" rule.

 

I dunno. Still feels like 'I transform him into a dead guy' to me.

 

Though I doubt I'd allow this power on a PC under *any* construction.

[phoenix240]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

it's not for a PC so that's not a problem. I think I may just go with an "close enough for government work" version: Desolid: UAA with a NND attack whose defense is no need to breath. Generally, I allow characters to hold their breath against those sorts of NND anyway so it should out close enough.

[Sean Waters]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

In 6e, the power to suffocate is a 20 point power in the APG somewhere. The main 'nasty' effect from suffocation is the loss of recovery, which can make a lot of difference. The trouble with fixed cost powers is that, well, they do not scale. In a heroic game with 100 point characters, 20 points for suffocation is probably OK. In a 400 point superhero game it is pretty damn cheap, compared to adjusting 10-20 points of recovery down to zero.

 

NND is OK, but...it has no effect on END - OK we can ignore that - you'll need the 'Does Body' version with a partial limitation that it does not do Body to a target with any Stun left. Breath holding is OK if the power puts an invisible bubble round your head, but if it creates a vacuum, or turns oxygen into nitrogen, that does not really work so well.

 

I'll just say this though, the suffocation is less of an issue for me than the desolidification attack. The ability to take an opponent out of combat entirely in one hit is immensely powerful: of course the version I suggested above is pretty damn expensive too, and the minimum cost you can manage really is 80 (desolid + UAA) before limitations - still expensive - but expensive for a reason. Don't allow a player to have this power, it will rapidly become boring. For a one off villain encounter it could make an interesting power.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

Well, then if it's for a villain, you don't even need to fart around with statting it up, just say 'you go Desolid' and apply the suffocation rule. The player doesn't need to know how, or even if, it was constructed.

[phoenix240]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

Well' date=' then if it's for a villain, you don't even need to fart around with statting it up, just say 'you go Desolid' and apply the suffocation rule. The player doesn't need to know how, or even if, it was constructed.[/quote']

 

True, but I was curious how it might look and I like to be more "official" for major NPCs. Minor OCD thing I guess.

[phoenix240]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

In 6e, the power to suffocate is a 20 point power in the APG somewhere. The main 'nasty' effect from suffocation is the loss of recovery, which can make a lot of difference. The trouble with fixed cost powers is that, well, they do not scale. In a heroic game with 100 point characters, 20 points for suffocation is probably OK. In a 400 point superhero game it is pretty damn cheap, compared to adjusting 10-20 points of recovery down to zero.

 

NND is OK, but...it has no effect on END - OK we can ignore that - you'll need the 'Does Body' version with a partial limitation that it does not do Body to a target with any Stun left. Breath holding is OK if the power puts an invisible bubble round your head, but if it creates a vacuum, or turns oxygen into nitrogen, that does not really work so well.

 

I'll just say this though, the suffocation is less of an issue for me than the desolidification attack. The ability to take an opponent out of combat entirely in one hit is immensely powerful: of course the version I suggested above is pretty damn expensive too, and the minimum cost you can manage really is 80 (desolid + UAA) before limitations - still expensive - but expensive for a reason. Don't allow a player to have this power, it will rapidly become boring. For a one off villain encounter it could make an interesting power.

 

The character in question would never sustain the power until it started to do lethal damage so the lethality of it isn't an issue. It's a bit of handwaving which as Crosshaircollie pointed out I could just do for the whole thing but I wanted to see what could be come up with.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

There is a power written up in the 5E Super Power Database that mimics the suffocation rules and it does it with Change Environment.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

Why does it need to be exact?

 

So that the character can achieve the desired result, which is suffocation of the target just as if he were otherwise rendered unable to breathe.

 

I agree that the effect is one I would be unlikely to allow, but that's a question of whether it is overpowered for my game, not what it should cost if I determine it is acceptable for my game (and I also concur it is the "target is desolid" aspect I find most problematic). Suffocation added to an Entangle or a Barrier seems consistent with abilities in the source material - why should it be impossible to duplicate these?

[Sean Waters]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

Transform: Target to Target with "Desolid, 0 END, Persistent, Always On" and "Physical Complication: Cannot breathe - takes suffocation effects at all times"

 

To be able to reliably Transform the target with a single shot will probably be at least as expensive as Desolid UAA.

 

Alternatively, Desolid UAA and Change Environment for Suffocation, which I believe is in one of the APG's.

 

The NND does not accurately match the suffocation rules, and any construct that does is hideously overpriced for its utility.

 

EDIT: 5th Ed will have to be Transform unless you're willing to import the 6e APG Change Environment rules and add a single target modifier.

 

120 points would turn a 14 Body target with no Power Defence into something else but to give that target a power you need to roll higher: 53 points for the desolid and take off 25 (or less if the target already has physical limitations) and you need an extra 28 points of effect. Personally, as the 'cannot breathe' is meant to be something you will be firing at enemies, I would not knock the points off, and may even make you pay for the complication in addition to the power. That would make a Transform prohibitively expensive; I agree however that this is not a simple 'transform to dead guy' thing, purely because you DO have to pay for the additional power (and possibly complication) on top of the transform cost.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

I don't think the Transform is prohibitively expensive, as it can accumulate over multiple attacks. However, it will not be instantaneous.

 

I would note that the addition or removal of powers and disadvantages quoted earlier are major transforms (10 points per 1d6, not 15 points), which would reduce your costs (although I do concur that the results are such that a good case can be made this is a severe transform, the character can accomplish much more than a stone statue can, but I question whether he's got more options than a frog). If you want, you can also slap on All or Nothing for a -1/2 limitation.

 

I could see using this on teammates under the right circumstances - an entire team that can walk through walls for a brief period would be well worth missing a PS 12 recovery and spending a few END points. This implies I have an easy off switch, though. But then, I would not allow this power if it didn't, as it's a death sentence for most targets. As well, the OP's comment that the character who would have the power would not let matters escalate to the point BOD is taken, so he's clearly envisioning something easily shut off. [hmmm...does the Shutoff power need Affects Desolid?] It's not far off "EDM to a dimension the typical target cannot survive in, and even if he can he has no way to get back".

[phoenix240]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

The villains main goal with is unusual. She's not trying to win but disrupt a highly coordinated teams tactics enough so that her favorite member (she's something of a super fan on his...) gets more face time and looks like the big hero and everyone can see that's he's as powerful and great as she thinks he is. So she's custom designing an opponent for them to do just that.

[Sean Waters]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

The villains main goal with is unusual. She's not trying to win but disrupt a highly coordinated teams tactics enough so that her favorite member (she's something of a super fan on his...) gets more face time and looks like the big hero and everyone can see that's he's as powerful and great as she thinks he is. So she's custom designing an opponent for them to do just that.

 

I like that idea.

[phoenix240]

Re: [5th Edition] Desolidification Attack

 

I like that idea.

 

Thank you, I think the players will have fun with it and it will help get a quiet one a little out of his shell. *fingers crossed*