Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

[ErikModi]

Okay, I've been mulling this idea over for quite some time. My character is something not unlike Symbiote Spider-Man/Venom/Carnage, though with a healthy dose of anger management issues (which we've been doing as extra strength, only usable while Enraged.) I've been liking this idea less and less as the campaign has gone on, and would now like to switch to a more Hulk-like "the angrier he gets, the stronger he gets" framework. So, here's the ability I wrote up for it:

 

Enraged Strength: Aid Strength 5d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger, Three or more activation conditions apply simultaneously; +1) (75 Active Points); Reduced Roll (1d6) (-2), Only to Aid Self (-1)

 

The idea behind the "Reduced Roll" limitation is that I want the Aid to slowly build up over the course of two or more turns toward maximum, rather than rolling all 5d6 two or three times. Discussing the "Increased Maximum Effect" advantage with my GM, he was understandably reticent about it, since the advantage was apparently so misused it was removed from 6th Edition. I figured that only rolling 1/5 the potential Aid dice at once made sense as a -2 limitation (or, if you like, a -1/2 limitation per die below maximum rolled.) The way the Trigger works is this: Basically, the GM and I agree on a set of conditions which will "provoke Rage" in the character. When one of these conditions is met, the Aid triggers and the character gains the boost to Strength. The GM was likewise wary about the ability triggering multiple consecutive phases (or even multiple times on the same phase), so I designed the Trigger that it requires a Zero Phase action to reset, essentially meaning that once Rage is provoked, it cannot be provoked again until my character acts (Speed 4, in case anyone was wondering.) The character doesn't control the Trigger activation because, after all, he can't just "get mad" at a whim. . . enemies have to provoke him or things have to go awry.

 

I have not had the chance to show this ability to my GM yet, but I would very much appreciate some constructive feedback. Thank you.

[psyber624]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

Well, first of all your 5d6 with a Reduced Roll of 1d6 is just trying to creatively get around the concept of Increased Maximum effect. It is basically 1d6 with x5 Increased Max Effect, you just worded it differently (and you are actually allowing it to be somewhat cheaper, although making it a limitation instead of an advantage does mean that further limitations are reduced in effect).

 

Aid 1d6, (BC 6) x5 Maximum Effect (+3/4, you could go x6 for the same cost of course, but this is an example) = 10.5 AP/RC

Aid 5d6 (BC 30), Reduced Roll (-2) = AP 30 RC 10

 

The real costs are the same so I don't know that a savy GM would let you get away with it. Also note that by making it a limitation it will reduce the costs of other advantages on the power as well (of course small dice with increased max effect has the same issue, so again I don't see how this is functionally any different).

 

You also have a problem with AID that you have to deal with fade rate. a 1d6 AID will be totally gone after 1 turn. This means that unless your character has at least SPD 5 you will never actually get the benefits of 5d6 anyway, and unless your GM agrees to track fade rates as 12 segments instead of post segment 12 you will always drop to base strength on post segment 12 (each application of aid will fade seperately). Note that this would also require quite a bit of extra paperwork (tracking when each application was applied and therefore when it would fade.)

 

I really feel that the partially limited strength is the way to go with this. What exactly is your issue with it? You state that you are liking it less and less, why is that? It avoids most of the weirdness that comes with using aid, triggers, etc.

 

If you want the feel of "Increasingly Stronger" as you get madder you can do stepped strength (ie +10 When he gets enraged, +10 more if he is angered again, +10 more if he is angered a third time).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

If this ability is just going to affect the owning character it makes little sense to use a power that by default is usable on others (Aid). An easier method would be to just use Characteristics purchased as Powers with the other Limitations.

 

from a similar thread:

Aid like Healing is built by default to work on others (Unlike Regeneration). Temporarily increasing personal stats has never had a clearly defined method (besides a few side cases like Force Field/Resistant Defense & Density Increase). I agree that Characteristics as Powers is probably the way to go. It just makes the final ability require special GM approval if you want to include it within a Framework.

[ErikModi]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

Part of the problem with the flat strength increase is that, by the time an Enrage finally happens, the combat is basically over, so it's pretty functionally useless. Also, the GM has imposed a 75 active point limit on all power/characteristics etc. (though he has allowed us to buy one power at either 100 or 110 points, I forget which), and has also explicitly stated that Aids will let you break campaign limits (adding more than the 75 AP cap to one ability), so this Aid is much more useful in that regard.

 

I wasn't sufficiently familiar with the Increased Maximum Effect to know exactly how it would match up, thanks for that. That'll give the GM and I something to compare it to when deciding how to work the power.

 

As for return rates, that's exactly why I want it to be able to fire a total of four times per turn (I act on four phases, and have to reset the Trigger at the start of my phase). Yeah, a 1d6 will most likely be gone completely, but if I can build up seven or eight points, then it accomplishes the slow, overall build to maximum strength I was going for.

 

Thank you VERY much for the feedback!

[psyber624]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

Ouch, allowing AID to disregard caps is dangerous territory. You can effectively double all the campaign caps with a max AP aid, and one person on the team can buy it and make the whole party twice as powerful.... that would explain why he is leery of Increased Maximum Effect tho

 

As far as the Enrage not happening before combat is over don't base the bonus Strength on being Enraged. Base it on something else (Bruce Banner practically has it for any time he is attacked, when DOESN'T he "hulk out"?) This may reduce the Limitation value, but you get what you pay for. (Note you never said what Limitation value your GM allowed you for only when enraged).

 

I also think your missing the point on the fade rate. Every 1d6 will produce its own fade rate. So if you trigger it 4 times in a turn, that's 20 points that will fade on ps12 unless your GM allows you to track it by 12 phases. So you will generally be able to gain around 14 points at max (4*3.5). and that will all fade ps12 so that next turn your back to your starting strength. Instead of a slow build up you have a roller coaster (3, 7, 10, 14, 0, 4, 7, 11, 14, 0) etc. etc. If that is what you are looking for (or if your GM agrees to do 12 phase tracking) then that's different, but note that you only need 4d6 of AID, not 5d6 (as you can't trigger it 5 times)

[ErikModi]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

I also think your missing the point on the fade rate. Every 1d6 will produce its own fade rate. So if you trigger it 4 times in a turn' date=' that's 20 points that will fade on ps12 unless your GM allows you to track it by 12 phases. So you will generally be able to gain around 14 points at max (4*3.5). and that will all fade ps12 so that next turn your back to your starting strength. Instead of a slow build up you have a roller coaster (3, 7, 10, 14, 0, 4, 7, 11, 14, 0) etc. etc. If that is what you are looking for (or if your GM agrees to do 12 phase tracking) then that's different, but note that you only need 4d6 of AID, not 5d6 (as you can't trigger it 5 times)[/quote']

 

Wait, how does that make sense? Aid is built to allow you to add together multiple uses of Aid up to it's maximum. . . if you're rolling an ordinary 5d6 Aid, and you get less than the maximum effect, you can use the Aid again on your next phase, but it still only fades at 5 points per Post-12. I see nothing at all in the book that says that Aid fades faster the more times you apply it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

I think if you check the FAQ, each use of an adjustment power fades independenty, so if you're hit with 3 Drains, or 3 Aids, that's 15 points of fade at PS 12. I disagree with that approach, but I'm pretty sure that's the ruling.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

I think that only applies if you use a different aid power, not the same power again. I'm pretty sure ErikModi has it right here.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

I agree. If multiple applications of the same Aid each get their own fade rate then it greatly devalues the Increased Maximum Advantage/Adder for Aid.

 

Anyway, this still makes me think that Strenth as a Power with appropriate Limation(s) is the better approach as it totally bypasses the whole necessity of keeping track of 1) a random bonus (unless Standard Effect is being used) and 2) tracking a Fade Rate. There are easier ways to track the gradual progression.

 

example:

 

45 You Made Me Angry!!!: +60 STR, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (90 Active Points); Limited Power Only When Enraged (-1/2), Extra Time (Extra Phase, Only to Activate, Custom - Can only access +15 STR per Enraged Roll; -1/2)

[Notes: This build requires that the character has an Enraged Complication. The Limitation value should match up with the Enraged Roll as if it was a Requires A Roll Limitation. If the character Recovers from being Enraged the effects end.]

 

 

If you want the bonus to drop at a gradual rate just customize the Enraged Complication to require multiple successful rolls for Full Recovery where each success causes the loss of 15 STR.

[psyber624]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

After reviewing the rules regarding this the only relevant section I could find was on 6e1 pg 137. It specifically discusses that each use of drain is tracked (and fades) separately. It then goes on to say:

 

You should also apply this rule to positive Adjustment Powers

 

though that is given more as a suggestion than an actual rule.

 

So that I am not accused of taking a statement out of context here is the complete section, spoilered for text block:

 

Sometimes a character gets affected by two or

more Adjustment Powers at once — for example,

two different enemies might both use Drain STUN

on him, or two different allies might Aid his DEX.

For Absorption and Aid, the “maximum effect”

rules apply (see above).

For negative Adjustment Powers, each one

affects a character separately for purposes of

determining when the character recovers lost

points — they don’t all lump together. Regardless

of whether, for example, two Drains come

from a single or multiple attackers, track each

use of Drain separately. The character recovers

5 points per Turn from each Drain separately

either in Post-Segment 12 (standard method)

or 12 Segments after a given Drain affected him

(optional method). You should also apply this

rule to positive Adjustment Powers, though the

GM may want to grant an exception in the case of

Absorption, since a single Absorption roll might

“boost” the character from multiple attacks. In

that case it might make more sense to lump all the

points gained from a single Adjustment roll into

one unit, and have that unit lose points at the rate

of 5 per Turn (or whatever).

 

 

That is probably where I got the idea that each use of AID would fade at 5 points per turn (and for Increased Maximum Effect, I do believe it is actually a good thing as it makes weak adjustment powers bought with huge IME rather pointless, which is one of the main abuses of that modifier. Large ones are still quite powerful even loosing 5 points a turn per application.)

 

So I was wrong and it is not an official RAW ruling. My bad.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

I think it was also answered in the same manner in the Rules Questions forum some time back. I was unable to locate it in the FAQ.

 

In ay event, I consider it a bad ruling, and one in a series that seems to devalue adjustment powers in general. That specific ruling, to me at least, devalues increased maximum (as suggested above) and makes the Reduced Fade Rate advantage, at low levels, excessively valuable, and almost essential for a viable combat adjustment power. No other cumulative ability, to my knowledge, recovers faster the more often the target is hit by it, so it's also another orphan mechanic, and one that we don't need. Plus, it's a bookkeeping headache. I can't think of any good reason for fade rate to be "per application" rather than "per item adjusted".

 

I know our group has always played with a single fade to each characteristic affected by adjustment powers. I suppose if one were both positively and negatively adjusted, each of the positive and negative adjustments would fade 5 points at PS 12, for a break even result.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

Wow, that is a really odd rule.

[griffinman01]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

I've always ruled it that multiple applications of the same aid/drain count as a single instance of the power and it fades at 5 points per turn and that different aids/drains fade independently of each other (ie both fade at 5 points per turn).

 

With regards to the Hulk out idea, on thing I did was conditional strength based on how much stun the guy has. ie +10 Str if below 60 stun, +10 if below 40, and +10 if below 20. I thought that was a bit more consistent than basing it on enraged rolls and it also helped with the idea of getting stronger the more you get hit.

[psyber624]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

When it comes to Aid I think that in most cases which way you use it doesn't matter as much (after all, most of the time a standard Aid can only have two applications at the same time anyway, at this point you have generally reached the cap (or close to it) unless you got some bad rolls)

 

Adding IME back to the game however changes things. If we state that AID only fades at 5 points per turn, regardless of how many applications of that power you put on, then a 2d6 Aid can easily reach max power REGARDLESS of the level of multipliers and in effect never drop off, all you need is one application per turn to keep yourself maxxed. That can easily be very very abusive. Now, I am not saying that it is wrong to have it work based on 5 points regardless of number of applications, as to each their own and just because something CAN be abused does not mean that we have to change the rules to prevent it from being so (that is part of the GM's job after all). But I do believe that stating that the aid falls off at 5 points per application allows more flexibility in power construction. If you want to deal with that then small Aid's with large IME's are easier to justify (yes they can still be abused of course). But if you don't want to deal with that problem use a larger aid so that you don't need to deal with the increased fade rates inherent in a small Aid with IME to get the same result.

 

Or we could go for the best of both worlds and come up with an advantage (or limitation depending on which you think should be the "base" for aid) so that a player can choose which interpretation of the rules to use.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

"Abusive" is a relative term.

 

Aid costs 6 points per 1d6, and costs END to use. If it Only Aids Self, that's a -1 advantage. Let's ignore the "increased maximum" for now. So I can purchase, say, 5d6 PRE Aid to add 30 points to my PRE for 15 points. I have to spend 2 attack actions (on average) to activate it, and spend END twice for the same purpose.

 

I could alternatively buy +30 PRE that requires a full phase to activate (-1/4), Costs 2x END only to activate (-1/2), for a cost of 17 points. For 2 points more, I have no fade rate (so no need to use an attack action every turn to maintain the Aid and no further END spent), and use only one full phase, rather than two attack actions, to activate the power at a cost of 6 END. With a -1/4 limitation for costing, say, 1 END per turn to maintain, I get down to 15 points and still use no actions up once it's activated.

 

So, based on the above, I don't think Aid fading at a flat 5 points per time increment is abusive.

 

If we start tacking on a bunch of increases to the maximum AID, we increase the time requirement and END cost to activate the power, and reduce the cost. Just like a higher END cost and Extra Time, only to activate, would reduce the point cost. Still seems comparable, on a gut feel basis.

[psyber624]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

With a 5d6 Aid its not much of a problem. You are only going to need 2 applications (generally) to hit max. at that point another application per turn is more than enough to keep you maxxed out whether the points fade at 5 (total) or 10 (2 applications resulting in 5 points each). My concern is with small Aid's with large IME's. A 2d6 AID with x4 IME is only 18 points, Self Only makes it 9 points. And it can add 48 points of PRE (using your example). It also only costs 2 end per application. Now, it takes 8 applications to hit max (on average) but once you have hit max you take one action per turn, at 2 End, and can keep your +48 PRE going all day long if you like. At worst you might have to spend 2 turns (24 seconds) when you first wake up "powering it up" but then the rest of the day you only need 1 action a turn to keep it going. If the points fade at 5 per application then you cant use one application to keep yourself at max, staying at max actually requires you to KEEP popping out aid applications in order to keep your power from fading really fast. Which I feel is in line with keeping larger aids more powerful than small aids with large IME's.

[griffinman01]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

With a 5d6 Aid its not much of a problem. You are only going to need 2 applications (generally) to hit max. at that point another application per turn is more than enough to keep you maxxed out whether the points fade at 5 (total) or 10 (2 applications resulting in 5 points each). My concern is with small Aid's with large IME's. A 2d6 AID with x4 IME is only 18 points' date=' Self Only makes it 9 points. And it can add 48 points of PRE (using your example). It also only costs 2 end per application. Now, it takes 8 applications to hit max (on average) but once you have hit max you take one action per turn, at 2 End, and can keep your +48 PRE going all day long if you like. At worst you might have to spend 2 turns (24 seconds) when you first wake up "powering it up" but then the rest of the day you only need 1 action a turn to keep it going. If the points fade at 5 per application then you cant use one application to keep yourself at max, staying at max actually requires you to KEEP popping out aid applications in order to keep your power from fading really fast. Which I feel is in line with keeping larger aids more powerful than small aids with large IME's.[/quote']

 

Part of the balance here sounds like the number of turns to hit said maximum. 8 applications is a LOT. If you tried this in a fight, odds are the bulk of the battle would be over by the time you finished boosting your stats. Once you get that high you can do what you were saying about reapplying it each turn, but getting there is almost not worth the effort. Plus, as a GM, I would probably rule that your aid would fade after that specific counter because I would imagine that nobody would keep using that ability every turn for the rest of the day to keep you juiced up. Could you imagine someone "hulking up" every 12 seconds for 8 hours in order to keep that kind of buff going just so you'll have it 'just in case'?

 

It seems to me that anything that takes more than 2 actions to apply is more trouble than it's worth.

[Greywind]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

Sticking to source material, it often takes the Hulk more than 2 actions to juice up.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

First off, by the (6e) book, Increased Maximum is only available for Absorbtion. The rules do not allow you to double the maximum Aid for a +1/4 advantage. It would not be unreasonable to allow that advantage at a higher point cost since you control the use of Aid without getting attacked - I suppose the character could run into walls to keep Absorb max'ed out, though. By the book, it is not available at all. Instead, you buy extra dice with the limitation that they only increase the maximum, which is effectively what the OP proposes.

 

I also agree with the comments above - you don't spend an action every 12 seconds "just in case", just as you don't always walk around in combat time. But let's consider:

 

Extra Time works in 1 turn or 1 minute increments. If you have the two turns required, you likely have a minute, but the gradual activation allows a bit of enhancement each phase. Call that 1 turn, only to activate (-1/2), with an extra -1/4 for only being able to take half phase non-attack actions for that whole turn, so -3/4. 8 of your Aids cost 16 END, but he'd get a PS 12 (which includes a fade, thinking on it) in there somewhere. Let's call that Costs END (-1/2), 3x END (saw off at 12; -1), only to activate for a total -3/4. That's a 19 point cost, and I can set it up at the start of the day and forget about it. A bit more than twice your IME ability. If we make IME a +1/2 advantage for Aid, your construct costs 24, and I submit is no more useful for that extra 5 point cost. Maybe we make IME for Aid arithmetic rather than geometric, so x4 limit is +3/4. Now your construct costs 21, which is closer.

 

Now, with your x4 max, I average a 7 roll, and lose 5 every PS12. With a 5 SPD, I can add 35 points a turn, but I lose 25 the first PS 12, and 35 (remaining 2 from each of the first 5 applications, + 5 from each application in the most current turn), so I can't ever hit that maximum. I don't find that an equitable result at all.

[ErikModi]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

By the book' date=' it is not available at all. Instead, you buy extra dice with the limitation that they only increase the maximum, which is effectively what the OP proposes.[/quote']

 

Where did you find that Limitation?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

Where did you find that Limitation?

 

6e page 382,

 

Limited Power

Players can use this catch-all Limitation to construct their own Limitations if they can’t find one that does what they want elsewhere in this book. The Limited Power Examples Table provides some example Power Limitations and their appropriate values. If none of the examples are what you’re looking for, you can construct your own, using the examples as guidelines. The GM must approve all such Limitations, of course.

 

Which is exactly what I did with my earlier non-Aid based example:

Limited Power Only When Enraged (-1/2)

[ErikModi]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

Oh, you're talking a build-your-own Limitation. I thought there was a published one that would do exactly what I wanted. . . darnit.

[Greywind]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

That's what "Limited Power" has always been there for.

[dmjalund]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

With regards to the Hulk out idea, on thing I did was conditional strength based on how much stun the guy has. ie +10 Stun if below 60 stun, +10 if below 40, and +10 if below 20. I thought that was a bit more consistent than basing it on enraged rolls and it also helped with the idea of getting stronger the more you get hit.

"But I don't want my post segment 12 recovery!"

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Enraged Strength "Hulk Up" ability, please examine

 

.... I thought that was a bit more consistent than basing it on enraged rolls and it also helped with the idea of getting stronger the more you get hit.

 

In the original Secret Wars Miniseries Hulk, Human Torch, Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic had a mountain dropped on them by the Beyonder.

Hulk was able to hold up a small cavity to keep them from being crushed. Mr. Fantastic was insulting Hulk/Banner almost continuously to make sure he was ANGRY enough to keep it up while he McGuyvered Iron Man's armor to accept Johnny's ability as a power source to his repulsers so they could blast out an escape hole.