Shooting/Firing Thru Objects

[socom242]

Hello, all

 

1^st time on these threads, but pretty familiar with the HERO system…just a bit rusty!

 

I started a brand new Dark Champions game and started having people trying to shoot thru things to get at their targets (windows, doors, walls, cars, etc.)

 

I tried to find some rules regarding this in the “Breaking Objects†chapters, but couldn’t find specific examples of this. Mostly it was how to destroy object or blow man-sized holes in them.

 

I’ve resorted to using the DEF/BODY as a combined Armor versus the attack, and then applying the rest to the target. So a glass window (with DEF 1 and BODY 1) getting shot thru by a 9mm (1d6+1) would take 2 points off it’s damage and apply the rest to the target.

 

In the case of a glass window, 2 points would be enough to shatter it, so any further attacks thru that window would be unimpeded.

 

But what about a wooden door (DEF 2 BODY 3)? Would 1 9mm bullet be enough to destroy it? I understand a hero’s punch or energy blast, but I think certain firearms shouldn’t be able to do that.

 

If anyone has any suggestions OR perhaps point me somewhere else on these threads, I’d appreciate it.

 

Thanks!

 

~SOCOM242

[Greywind]

You've got it right. As for the door situation, apply common sense and cinematic sense, in the order that you prefer for the results that you want.

[psyber624]

You can always adjust things to have more of the feel that you want. Look at average damages to get an idea. A 2d6 RKA averages 7 Damage, so your wooden door will take most of the damage but is unlikely to stop it (unless they roll low). a 1d6+1 firearm on the other hand will average 4.5 Damage, so one shot is unlikely to get through, but multiple bullets will. For simplicity sake anything that penetrates the door creates a "man size hole" but that is actually far more applicable to a Champions (Superhero) reality than a Dark Champions (Elite Normals) reality so it is easy enough to state that a bullet that goes through a door only leaves a bullet size hole. (You could allow a -8 called shot to shoot through that hole again, or state that after the door has taken enough Body damage (usually 2-3x Base BODY) that it is effectively destroyed. Fragile Materials on the other hand (such as an unreinforced glass window) might only need 1x Body to be destroyed,and really structurally sound materials (Iron, Steel, Armor Plate) might never be truly "destroyed" in this fashion if you wanted).

 

Also look at DEF vs BODY. A low DEF high BODY object (usually used for thick objects) can eventually be destroyed by most attacks but as little as 5-6 DEF will make an object nearly "impervious" to your 1d6+1 firearm, and at 7 DEF that gun cannot even scratch it. You can use these guidelines to tailor your world to the level of destructibility you want. If you want a certain weapon to easily destroy something, it should have DEF < the average damage, if the weapon cannot destroy it DEF >= Max damage. So place the DEF where you want it in that scale. BODY on the other hand is a factor of time. The more BODY something has, the longer it will take to destroy it but it doesn't change how different weapons treat the material as much as DEF does.

[bigbywolfe]

A single bullet usually won't destroy a door no matter how much damage it does. That is why most guns are built with the Beam Limitation. Similarly a punch or kick usually won't smack a meter size hole in a wall (with some super games being an obvious exception) and that's just part of the SFX, though you may kick an entire door open/off its hinges.

 

If you are looking to do damage to someone or something on the other side of an object Dark Champions has optional rules (called "blow through" or something like that I think) where if an attack does double the object's body (I think) the damage is not reduced when it hits what was behind it. So shooting, or even punching, through glass would not take 2 points of Body from the attack if using that rule.

[socom242]

Thanks for the input! I especially like using an Average of damage to determine penetration/destruction of an object. Again, I know it's Dark Champions but depending on your approach it can be "Black Hawk Down" or "Expendables". As for the "Beam Limitation" I did a quick glance thru the 5e Revised book and couldn't locate it, but I have heard of it. Can you point it out to me?

 

Thanks again, everyone!

[Greywind]

Pg 113.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Also realize that if you are targeting someone through a window or a wall, that not only does the intervening object reduce the damage, but it also makes it harder to hit because the bullet may be deflected, so you may want to include an OCV penalty for such cases.

[Vanguard]

 

Sounds like what you're looking for are the "Blow Through" rules in Dark Champions, pg 192.

[socom242]

Thank, Vanguard!!! Those are exactly the rules I was looking for!

[TheRealDeal]

I use the Damage Negation power as a way to simulate reductions in damage from barriers and walls and the like. If you just treat them as armor, then you end up being more Stun heavy with whatever hits the target. I think the damage reduction of the Body should also reduce the Stun proportionally as well.

 

For example, an attack deals 10 Body and 35 Stun. If it goes through say a Wall with DEF 5 and BODY 4 then using the armor idea, what ends up getting through is an attack dealing only 1 Body and yet still doing a whopping 26 Stun! That just seems disproportional to me. The Stun should be reduced in the same proportion, since this attack is not blocked by armor which is next to the target's body and thus the pass through Stun makes sense, this is, rather, a reduction of the power of the attack in an overall way.

 

I basically rule that for every 1 Body reduced, you reduce Stun by 3.5 (or you can just round it to 3 to make it simple). Or for a killing attack, just calculate the Stun based on the Body that makes it through, not the original Body.

 

So the above attack would end up reducing the Stun not by 9 but by 9 x 3.5 = 31, making the final attack deal 1 Body and 4 Stun, much more in line.

 

This is what Damage Negation basically does, so you can either reduce the dice rolled by amount equal to the DEF and BODY of the obstacle, which avoids the need to use the above 1 Body per 3.5 Stun conversion. For killing attacks, just reduce the Body first, then calculate the Stun from this reduced Body.

 

So a 10d6 attack going through a DEF 5 BODY 4 wall, reduces itself to a single 1d6 attack actually rolled against the target on the other side.

 

Larry

[bigbywolfe]

Thank, Vanguard!!! Those are exactly the rules I was looking for!

Oh sure, don't thank me when I mentioned them a whole day earlier. *Stomps off in mock indignation*