Triggers

[Aversill]

Three Questions/points about trigger:

 

I'm not sure why trigger isn't modified by the frequency of the triggering event.  If I buy a trigger that happens whenever I do squeeze damage or every time I hit in combat, then it ought to be worth more than a trigger that goes off once every full moon, but it isn't.  Why is that, or am I missing something (1)?

 

Also (2), trigger seems to make it possible to hit as an action that takes no time, as many times as the trigger allows, is there a limit to how many times a target can be hit in a phase (or segment) by a trigger?

 

Lastly, trigger can't use senses that the character doesn't possess.  So, if a character simulates a mine by setting an area affect, delayed affect blast on a trigger that when anyone enters the area it goes off, will it?  Assuming that the character isn't 'monitoring the area' using clairsentience or something, will it go off?  Does the character need clairsentience?  Is delayed affect needed?

[Christopher]

1. It is. After all you have to Reset it first. And the Rules somewhere even state that "even if it only takes a Zero Phase action, you cannot do it more then once per Phase". And once you hit "once per day", charges might be a good limiter in addition to trigger.

"Everytime I hit in combat" is really just a sub-part of Damage shield or maybe a Linked Attack.

 

2. I also noticed the Option to make a Attack Action into a Normal Half Phase action: Half Phase to Reset, 0 Phase to trigger, decays at end of phase. +1/4 is afaik what I cam up with.

In any case, the GM has to agree that it is still balanced. Obviously an attack that let's you hit unlimited times while not even having a phase is not - no ruling is nessesary to figure that out.

 

3. Characters have touch. So the mine can have touch (indeed many do). And the Trigger Rules eplixilty say you can buy senses with "Only for Triggers" Limitation. Nobody says the character has to "monitor" the area (indeed that would defeat half the purpose of Trigger). Only that the Automatic Sensors only inlcude what the Character has bought as sense or get's for free.

Technically tha would include the need to buy "Absolute TIme sense" with the Limitation to have a precise Timebomb. But it ended up being 1 CP for me an most GM's wave this anyway.

[psyber624]

Actually, by the rules, you can have a trigger that automatically resets go off any number of times

 

(This does not apply to
Triggers that automatically reset, of course; there’s
no limit to the number of times an automatic-reset
Triggered power can be activated in a Segment.)    6E1 pg 351

Therefore it would be up to the GM to rule whether the use of that trigger is permitted or not.

 

If it is set to be a Zero phase action to reset the rules do state that you can only do ANY Zero phase action once per segment, but if you pay to have your trigger automatically, instantly reset this does not apply.

 

As far as the "frequency of the event" triggering in a non-automatic resetting trigger that frequency is at best once per phase (as you have to take an action to reset it). If you wanted to modify the cost of an automatic resetting trigger by the frequency you could expect it to go off that would be up to the GM to determine based upon how frequently it would be likely to happen in his world.

[Aversill]

I have triggers that go off and reset all the time, so long as the circumstances happen.  Mental illusions that goes off every time someone looks at me.  It's expensive so I look for other options, but there isn't a limit, as far as I know, to how many things a character can do that take "no time."  Obviously a GM could step in, but that's universal in all areas of rule mechanics.  It's really not worth saying.

 

The problem is that this frequency is not constant.  I'm making the spell, right now, from first edition D and D:  Water to dust.  I've worked the spell so that a part of its power triggers when the spell is cast against water elementals.  In other words, it goes off as X, but triggers Y in addition if X hits a water elemental...  Water elementals are Rare.  If the power had the limitation "Only against Water Elementals" it would be a -2 limitation.  Do I get that limitation if I say, "Triggers when it hits water elementals"?  The answer, as far as I can tell, is "no."  My question is, why the heck not?  Why should the trigger, "trigger when someone sees me," be equal in value to "trigger when power X hits a water elemental."  They aren't equal in terms of usefulness, and if it weren't for the trigger advantage, one would have a -2 or more limitation bonus.

 

It just feels as though trigger, which I think is a great advantage, requires further definition.

[Chris Goodwin]

The problem is that this frequency is not constant.  I'm making the spell, right now, from first edition D and D:  Water to dust.  I've worked the spell so that a part of its power triggers when the spell is cast against water elementals.  In other words, it goes off as X, but triggers Y in addition if X hits a water elemental...  Water elementals are Rare.  If the power had the limitation "Only against Water Elementals" it would be a -2 limitation.  Do I get that limitation if I say, "Triggers when it hits water elementals"?  The answer, as far as I can tell, is "no."  My question is, why the heck not?  Why should the trigger, "trigger when someone sees me," be equal in value to "trigger when power X hits a water elemental."  They aren't equal in terms of usefulness, and if it weren't for the trigger advantage, one would have a -2 or more limitation bonus.

 

Trigger is not the Modifier you want.  Instead, give your Y Power the Linked to X and Only Vs. Water Elementals Limitations.  It will essentially always go off, but only has its effect on water elementals.

 

Edit:  That's not to say that you can't use Trigger.  You might want to use it for various reasons when you don't want power Y to go off -- maybe related to END or Charges usage.  But that's probably not applicable here. 

[Aversill]

Trigger is not the Modifier you want.  Instead, give your Y Power the Linked to X and Only Vs. Water Elementals Limitations.  It will essentially always go off, but only has its effect on water elementals.

 

Edit:  That's not to say that you can't use Trigger.  You might want to use it for various reasons when you don't want power Y to go off -- maybe related to END or Charges usage.  But that's probably not applicable here. 

 

Huh, that's how we used to do it, but my understanding was that someone figured out that it really wasn't much of a limitation and so they changed it to an advantage and called it trigger.  You'll have to excuse me, mine's a jump from 2nd edition to 5th and I have no idea what they did in 3rd and 4th.  Really, I came in at 6th.

 

In any case, my understanding of linked is that it limited When the power could be activated, and that it did not actually Activate the power.  I could be wrong, but that's how I've been reading the change between the editions.

[Christopher]

Huh, that's how we used to do it, but my understanding was that someone figured out that it really wasn't much of a limitation and so they changed it to an advantage and called it trigger.  You'll have to excuse me, mine's a jump from 2nd edition to 5th and I have no idea what they did in 3rd and 4th.  Really, I came in at 6th.

 

In any case, my understanding of linked is that it limited When the power could be activated, and that it did not actually Activate the power.  I could be wrong, but that's how I've been reading the change between the editions.

Trigger is for powers you can:

Either activate with less time then normally, aftter they are set.

Or that can acitvaite themself (based on sense impression; inlcuding passed time). Timebombs, landmines, preparations that allow instant activation of powers.

 

Linked:

Linked powers come at least in pair. One is the lesser power (the one linking), the other the greater (the one being linkd too). There can be multiple lesser powers, but only a single greater for each set of lesser powers (including a compound power).

You can always use the greater power without the lesser power. But you can never use the lesser without the greater.

Wich one is greater or lesser is not easily defineable on the Active Points or similar telltales. i.e. a posioned Dagger - the Dagger is the greater, even if the Poison is build on twice the Active Points.

[Aversill]

So, a linked power doesn't mean that power X goes off when power Y goes off.  It just means that power X can only go off when power Y goes off (or some variation of that).  Right?  Which means that if you have a power that destroys Water Elementals (my  example from way back), every time you cast a spell that transforms water into sand, then that second power is utilizing a trigger and needs to be bought as a trigger according to the Rules as they are currently written.

 

Now back to the original question.  If my trigger ONLY goes off when I attack a rare creature (Water Elementals), why does it have the same Advantage Value as a trigger that goes off under condition: Every time I say, "Boo!" 

 

...Or do I get a limitation bonus on the power with the first trigger:  Only works on Water Elementals (-1), for instance.  I'm asking because it is my understanding that you cannot get a limitation bonus for the triggering condition.  I could, and may very well be, wrong on that, but I don't see it in the rules.

[Aversill]

Also, obviously, you could buy the Water to Sand power as a compound power and not worry about the trigger at all, but utilizing trigger gets around AP limits for those campaigns that have them, which is, I assume one of the unstated points of trigger.

[Greywind]

 

A character can only use a power with this Limitation

with another power. If he isn’t using the

other power (the “greater power”), he can’t use

the power with the Linked Limitation (the “lesser

power”) either.

Linked only affects the lesser power. A character

can use the greater power without using the

lesser power if he wants; Linked doesn’t restrict the

greater power in any way. However, he can only use

the lesser power when he uses the greater power.

[IndianaJoe3]

Let's zoom out a little bit... you're trying to create a spell that dries things out and, if the thing is a water elemental, does damage, right?

[Aversill]

n I'm converting all the 1e D and D spells into Hero.  I'm hoping to post them up here when I'm done.  I use Trigger a lot.  Transform water to Dust is just one spell I have it on.  The question isn't, however, about that spell in particular but about handling frequency and the Trigger advantage in general.

 

For example, Currently I'm working on Holy Word from the 1e D&D book.  It has multiple effects.  It sends summoned creatures back to their home plane (dispel) (uncommon or rare), it kills weak creatures (extremely common), it dazes and slows medium creatures (common), it deafens powerful creatures (uncommon).

 

So, it's a bonus to presence with a single charge that triggers a dispel summon (all summons in my game are able to be dispelled).  If the presence attack gets Pre+20, it triggers a horrendous killing attack.  If it gets Pre+10, it triggers a mental paralysis.  If it gets Pre+0, it does a hearing flash.  All of those triggers are the same advantage total, and I assume, none of the triggers gets a limitation bonus even though the likelihood of their being triggered is not the same. To my mind, the advantage ought to be affected OR I should be able to take a limitation, but the structure of trigger is such that I can't take the limitation and the advantage total has nothing to do with frequency.  If I have a trigger when I score a +20 result to the presence attack, I can't turn around and take the limitation:  Only when I score a +20 on Pre attack.  I could, conceivably, make it so that the trigger activates on Presence attacks and then take the limitation, only if I score a +20 (-1/4 or -1/2), but then the power would constantly being going off and not having an effect (given endurance and/or charges), I probably wouldn't want this option.

 

If you'd prefer, think of it this way.  I have a power that triggers every time I hit in HtH combat and a power that triggers once every galactic rotation.  They're the same advantage total and I don't get to take the limitation bonus for the frequency or infrequency of the triggering.