Unlocking a door with transform? Extensions of same power effect, and other Powers?

[worldshaking00]

Sorry for the long-ish thread, but I'd like some input from you fine folks.

 

First:

I have a pyrokinetic character that I want to build a power stunt for. The effect of a power in her MP is to use her psychokinetic power to melt the deadbolt or what-have-you of a door/latch similar to a torch cutting through it. However I wanted the power to not be as blatant as "having a flame jet come from out of her finger" but rather be more subtle.Similarly, I did not want the door itself to just be burnt into cinders/slag.  I imagine the metal/target just superheating and melting very precisely. I discussed it with my GM, and he was cool with Minor Transform dice, as I am changing the usefulness of the door but not its fundamental existence. Obviously his word is what works for this campaign, and I am not questioning the soundness of his decision (in fact, I agree). I bought it as...

 

5d6 Minor Transform (target into unlocked target) Partial Transform* (+1/2) Alt Combat Value (+1/4: non-mental power uses OMCV vs DMCV)** Indirect (+1/4)*** Invisible to Sight Group (+1/2)** Defense is rED instead of Power Defense (-1/2)

 

*= partial because if I transformed/damaged the door enough, it might make it easier to bash open the door, game effect-wise

**= simulating psionic TK-like effect; {I know most doors shouldn't even have DMCVs (so yeah or nay on the +1/4 and just go +0 ACV: OMCV instead of OCV)?}

***= as long as she can see where to 'cut' the lock (or have a good enough guess to non-targeting PER roll to make the attack, or see through a window at such a locked target) she can affect the target.

 

Second:

Then I got to thinking about other ramifications to that same power effect. What about welding a door shut? If anyone saw the more recent incarnation of the movie Carrie, when Carrie just looks at the lock and telekinetically welds the door lock that is keeping her psycho mom in the closet, that is how I imagine the effect looking.

 

4d6 Minor Transform (target into welded shut target) Partial Transform (+1/2) ACV (+1/4) Indirect (+1/4) AOE: Surface (+1/4)**** Invisible to Sight Group (+1/2) Defense is rED instead of Power Defense (-1/2)

 

****= to simulate that two parts have to be joined in order to be welded

 

Third:

Now I really got wild & imaginative. What about welding a gun's trigger so it couldn't be fired?

 

And that's when the alarm bell started ringing. Depriving a target of a power could be simulated by either Transform or Dispel. Depending on special effects and GM adjudication, it might be a while before a target could "turn back on" his RKA 'gun' without making a skill roll or something to make it work. Removing a power from a target is also a much higher level of transform. Either Power choice could be "healed" or "turned back on" by repairing the gun in one way or another. Either way, the target's Power Defense still applies... which plain doesn't make sense to me with this special effect.

 

How should I construct the power? The Dispel description, paraphrased, lists one of its uses as "turning off an opponent's foci" You cannot Dispel a person's Base, so Transform seems OK for the first two power effects. Could Entangle do the job as well for power #2's write up ?Or, should I just save the points on power #3 and learn Martial Disarm or Takeaway lol?

 

We all know that almost any power effect can be purchased in a multitude of different variations. I'd really not like to reinvent the wheel here. 

 

Thanks for your sage advise and patience reading.

[Christopher R Taylor]

For unlocking I've bought two effects: Lockpicking at a high level with various modifiers (time, END Cost, etc) as a spell, and transform: locked or barred to unlocked and unbarred again with appropriate mods.

 

For locking I've used several effects, but entangle is probably the most useful while transform can do the job as well.

 

Both transform and dispel can prevent a device from functioning, since it must be repaired to be used again if dispelled (or at least worked with in the field with a roll).  Inanimate items dispelled or drained do not recover on their own.

[Christopher]

This is just a HKA focussed agaisnt a weakpoint, really.

Wheter you remove the hinges/locking bolt of a door with a blowtorch, a gun or flame powers - the thing just falls off/opens up.

You just found a way to open a door that does not involve having to destroy the entire doors surface (what normal damaging walls would need).

 

Just because the door material has the durability to withstand a 60 STR super pushing does not mean the lock has the same durability. Proper vault doors invest a lot of resources to have the lock even be remotely as durable as the door itself.

[WistfulD]

I would say omcv vs. dcv would be the most appropriate. The psion may experience this as a psionic ability, but to the target, it's a normal targetted attack. Plus, I can imagine a clueless security guard opening the lock just as you were about to do it, messing up your effect (the door gets 'abort to dodge' :-P), and that would be a physical world defense.

[worldshaking00]

For unlocking I've bought two effects: Lockpicking at a high level with various modifiers (time, END Cost, etc) as a spell, and transform: locked or barred to unlocked and unbarred again with appropriate mods.

 

That would work, for me, to just have the door be opened/unlatched. However it fails to represent the fact the the door's locking capability is functionally destroyed until repaired.

 

but entangle is probably the most useful while transform can do the job as well.

 

I'll talk it over with my GM as to which he'd prefer. I'm thinking that Transform would be better, because a well done 'weld' should be a lot tougher than what my Active Point total would be by using an Entangle. The door itself, i.e. the game environment, would be what sets the tone for the power. I know I could have a "Requires Components"-style of limitation, modifying my Max DEF of the door/weld, but if I took the time to do a weld on a particularly strong door (let's say, a vault door), I don't think I should be penalized by being limited to a cheesy amount of Entangle dice.

 

 

This is just a HKA focussed agaisnt a weakpoint, really.

Wheter you remove the hinges/locking bolt of a door with a blowtorch, a gun or flame powers - the thing just falls off/opens up.

You just found a way to open a door that does not involve having to destroy the entire doors surface (what normal damaging walls would need).

 

Fair enough. So what you're saying is that the power's special effect is keeping the door 'whole' rather than being slag? So since it is going against smaller, more intricate parts of the door rather than the entire mass of the door, do you think that Penetrating (+1/2) would be in order by that same logic?

 

I would say omcv vs. dcv would be the most appropriate. The psion may experience this as a psionic ability, but to the target, it's a normal targetted attack.

 

 I agree. Question about that: can such an attack be Deflected normally? I know my attack is Invisible to Sight, so if the Deflector wasn't able to perceive the incoming attack he'd be in deep doo-doo to try. I'm just meaning legally.

 

Plus, I can imagine a clueless security guard opening the lock just as you were about to do it, messing up your effect (the door gets 'abort to dodge' :-P)

 

Cute.

 

Thanks for the replies thus far. Any others?

[IndianaJoe3]

That would work, for me, to just have the door be opened/unlatched. However it fails to represent the fact the the door's locking capability is functionally destroyed until repaired.

 

If the lock is destroyed, that sounds like Dispel. I'm not sure how many points it would go against, though.

[worldshaking00]

Part of why I was figuring Transform was the way to go, as it already has the built-in way to heal back from it (i.e. repair the door). I was also considering the Indirect advantage to allow me to bypass the sheet metal (or whatever the door is made of) so I could affect the internal working of the locking mechanism. While Indirect can't bypass a personal defense (e.g. body armor), by definition it allows a barrier to be ignored. And as was pointed out, unless circumstances warrant it, the DEF & Body of a smaller piece of metal should be less than that of the entire door. But then, who builds oak door locks/latches out of Adamantium or Questionite or Unobtainium, really? 

[Christopher]

Fair enough. So what you're saying is that the power's special effect is keeping the door 'whole' rather than being slag? So since it is going against smaller, more intricate parts of the door rather than the entire mass of the door, do you think that Penetrating (+1/2) would be in order by that same logic?

I say it is not even targetted against the Door. It is targetted agaisnt the Lock.

Maybe you could even give that HKA the Beam Limitations (that guns have too):

A gun and a mundane lock drill would all be considered a "beam" limited attack. While they would be hard pressed to destory the door surface and create a human sized opening like unlimited attacks, they can easly target the lock. That is based on the door having that weakness/design flaw.

 

If it was something like a magnetically sealed door (with no hinges or locks as weakpoints to attack) or a decent vault door (wich has up to a dozen thick lock bars) the attack would fail/need a LOT of applications.

Of course the magneti door would still fail if you just cut the right, single, non-redudant powerline (something your beam attack can totally do).

 

Note that no mater how you define the attack, you would not get around defenses. No amount of indrect or AVAD can cause your attack to skip iron mans armor or that a lock is propably still metal. That needs something like NND (with Does Killing Damage to work against inanimate objects).

[WistfulD]

 I agree. Question about that: can such an attack be Deflected normally? I know my attack is Invisible to Sight, so if the Deflector wasn't able to perceive the incoming attack he'd be in deep doo-doo to try. I'm just meaning legally.

 

I think indirect and IPE covers this thematically, but can't be deflected is only +1/4 if you're truly concerned about it.

[worldshaking00]

 

 

Note that no mater how you define the attack, you would not get around defenses. No amount of indrect or AVAD can cause your attack to skip iron mans armor or that a lock is propably still metal. That needs something like NND (with Does Killing Damage to work against inanimate objects).

 

Yes. I agree 100% on personal defenses. The question that arises then: is an inanimate unattended/"not part of any character's personal defense special effect" object (in this argument, a locked door) pertinent & subject to Indirect (as in being able to target/affect just its locking mechanism)? By definition, they are parts of a whole. However there is a skill called Lockpicking, not Door Opening. Therefore one could infer that there is something distinctly "targetable" and different between the two.

 

I don't doubt that the power would have to go against some Defense power (per my write up, rED). I don't doubt that certain high-end doors would have redundant and/or high quality material locks, and therefore better DEFs. Just by using the "Object Body by Thickness" chart, the part that locks the door should be thinner than the door itself (and therefore less Body to 'cut' through).

 

I was considering your application of the Beam limitation, and that might be applicable if the attack's base Power was KA and the attack was Constant. I could visualize the attack taking a while to "cut" through, but my interpretation of Beam would be that no matter how much Body damage actually got past the DEF of the door, only 1 Body damage would be taken (akin to how it would affect Entangles). Unless my GM insisted on taking it, I think that's too much of a disadvantage for the -1/4. I do see how that visualization could be Beam-like though, as my intended result is just a pin-point attack of certain parts of the door and not, as you say, "destroy the door surface and create a human sized opening like unlimited attacks." I can see arguments for both.

 

This might be a case of special effect/storytelling/common sense taking precedence over rules. By roleplaying, the door is still on its hinges and technically still serves the purpose of a door, just minus the ability to be locked. It could be swung shut once opened, and can be used by anyone. It is not being used by Janus the Door Man* as a form of personal protection, so his anima doesn't control/inhabit the door nor is he using it as a tower shield. If someone could open the door with Lockpicking, can a power do the same without slagging the door? I'd reckon Telekinesis with Fine Manipulation could develop a power stunt to jimmy a door lock rather than simply bashing it down.

 

Thanks for continuing to read and to brainstorm this problem.

 

*= Janus the Door Man might belong to someone. Apologies if I borrowed the character's name for illustration purposes. No monetary gains were made.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think its up to the GM.  I'd let someone target individual components of a door instead of the entire structure, because the door's lock isn't built as a focus with game rules on how long it takes to remove.  Its just a piece of the environment, which is largely left up to the GM to determine.

[Christopher]

Yes. I agree 100% on personal defenses. The question that arises then: is an inanimate unattended/"not part of any character's personal defense special effect" object (in this argument, a locked door) pertinent & subject to Indirect (as in being able to target/affect just its locking mechanism)? By definition, they are parts of a whole. However there is a skill called Lockpicking, not Door Opening. Therefore one could infer that there is something distinctly "targetable" and different between the two.

Indirect and Altnate CV do not let you skip defenses. No mater what the target is.

For skipping defenses there are other advantages. Like Penetrating, Armor pirecing, AVAD+Does Body and the like.

 

Not that you will need them, as a mundane door has only so little resistance against super level of damage. And a special door will propably need a non-combat action to take out anyway. Neither of thoses cases needs a power.

 

The door is either so weak you can open it with casual use of powers (0 phase action) or so strong it has no obvious weak points to exploit and will need full power HKA (possibly with AP/Penetrating) to take down.

Doors tend to fall into one of these extremes.