How to build a throw

[TheDarkness]

Working on a concept for a jiujitsu fighter, and I want to build a throw what ends with the throws person in a grab to followup with ground fighting.

 

The idea is, the throw occurs, let's say a throw that uses the target's arm and waist for the initial grab, the throw succeeds, and the arm is still grabbed, so that the thrower can attempt an armlock after.

 

Bear in mind, I'm still getting a handle on how basic throws are built, sorry if the question is an obvious one!

[薔薇語]

I think what you are looking for is not a throw but simply normal martial arts damage.

 

A character can grapple another character. Following that, they can then punch, kick, or otherwise assault the grappled character. The "special effect" of those assaults could easily just be "twist arm and drop and hold". There isn't a mechanical need to build that as a "throw". Next, if you have a character with actual martial arts skills, they could execute the above much more fluidly (grapple and damage in the same action).

 

Now if there is a need to actually "drop" the enemy so that they are not just grappled but also prone on the ground, then I would simply look towards finding an existing maneuver already in publication or create your own. Perhaps just go with "Trip" from 6ED Volume 2, page 56 and 83. It is a generic maneuver that anyone can do even without a grapple beforehand. It normally does no damage, though. As a GM, if a player grappled a target and then tripped them, I would allow them to maintain the grapple.

 

I imagine there is a Martial Drop skill already in publication that would do the trick, too. But I am not sure off hand where to find it. But you could always create one that was a follow up to a Martial Grab. The Drop would do STR+2d6 and give you +1 OCV and +2 DCV.

 

Foreign Orchid.

[Hyper-Man]

I think this is the Jujutsu/Judo maneuver that you are looking for:

 

5    3)  Breaking Throw (Custom):  1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, -2 DCV, Grab One Limb,  HKA 1 1/2d6, Disable, Target Falls

 

If you have seen the movie John Wick you might find this write up useful:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/91791-john-wick-for-6e/?do=findComment&comment=2450572

[Ninja-Bear]

I think this is the Jujutsu/Judo maneuver that you are looking for:

 

5 3) Breaking Throw (Custom): 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, -2 DCV, Grab One Limb, HKA 1 1/2d6, Disable, Target Falls

 

If you have seen the movie John Wick you might find this write up useful:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/91791-john-wick-for-6e/?do=findComment&comment=2450572

Or swap out the HKA for normal damage if he doesn't I tend to break the arm.

[Ninja-Bear]

The Darkness is your iui jitsu fighter also going to be on the ground after the throw? Then add you fall disable element.

[Comic]

The 'throw' mechanic leaves the opponent with the prone disadvantage; the 'grab' mechanic leaves the target with the 'grabbed' disadvantage (two limbs) but also encumbers the martial artist while the hold is maintained. Further, the ground fighting element implies 'both fall', as in a sacrifice throw.

 

Either a throw maneuver or a grab maneuver is enough to achieve some combat effect a player might want, but what is specifically being asked for seems to be grab with the limitation, "must follow throw", (giving the martial artist the option to let go instead of hanging on) or a combined maneuver that leaves the opponent prone while being held (redundant disadvantages) without the option to let go but taking less time.

 

Tactically, it gets expensive to build a decent martial artist with the combined maneuver, since being able to let go of someone you've just thrown can be very desirable, in particular if you've just rendered yourself prone.

 

If I were doing it, I'd look at modifying Sacrifice Throw, to add the outcome, "target held" for an additional 1 point. (Making it a 4 pt maneuver, because while it is slightly advantageous to not need to establish a grab next phase, it is a big disadvantage to be holding onto someone prone, even though letting go is a zero phase action.)

[TheDarkness]

I think what you are looking for is not a throw but simply normal martial arts damage.

 

A character can grapple another character. Following that, they can then punch, kick, or otherwise assault the grappled character. The "special effect" of those assaults could easily just be "twist arm and drop and hold". There isn't a mechanical need to build that as a "throw". Next, if you have a character with actual martial arts skills, they could execute the above much more fluidly (grapple and damage in the same action).

 

Now if there is a need to actually "drop" the enemy so that they are not just grappled but also prone on the ground, then I would simply look towards finding an existing maneuver already in publication or create your own. Perhaps just go with "Trip" from 6ED Volume 2, page 56 and 83. It is a generic maneuver that anyone can do even without a grapple beforehand. It normally does no damage, though. As a GM, if a player grappled a target and then tripped them, I would allow them to maintain the grapple.

 

I imagine there is a Martial Drop skill already in publication that would do the trick, too. But I am not sure off hand where to find it. But you could always create one that was a follow up to a Martial Grab. The Drop would do STR+2d6 and give you +1 OCV and +2 DCV.

 

Foreign Orchid.

 

 

The Darkness is your iui jitsu fighter also going to be on the ground after the throw? Then add you fall disable element.

Yes, I'm trying to build a framework for groundfighting beyond what is in the Ultimate Martial Artist.

 

My goal is to build a dynamic framework that will build suspense in the fights much as stand up fighting already has in the system, where one aborts actions to respond to actions, blocks, then their opponent knows that they are set up for a response, and must decide how to counter.

 

For that reason, I want to keep the throw itself as a normal throw, but with the addition of having a hold in place that their opponent will know could lead to a followup, likely a lock or break, depending on their opponent's character and the situation.

 

So, for game terms, I'm looking to build a throw that ends in a hold that specifically can be used to give a modest bonus to a followup action, that would likely be a joint lock. I am just not clear on the mechanics of the actual build.

 

So the build may not be simple, it should be harder than just the throw on its own, but the goal in my game is not always cost efficiency, but play dynamics. I encourage builds that add to the description and action.(For example, the player I'm working with now has a gun that can fire a taser round, but the taser is actually a couple mechanical creatures that then crawl away and back to him, and can be damaged on their return. While it would be simpler to just make the power, I like the effect of knowing that a normal person, faced with a weird mechanical millipede that just shocked him or her, just might want to crush it, so I encourage the build).

 

The lock itself is a followup that can be avoided, with luck. And an additional action. The throw ending in a hold is the entire move on its own.

 

Sorry if I wasn't particularly clear.

[TheDarkness]

The 'throw' mechanic leaves the opponent with the prone disadvantage; the 'grab' mechanic leaves the target with the 'grabbed' disadvantage (two limbs) but also encumbers the martial artist while the hold is maintained. Further, the ground fighting element implies 'both fall', as in a sacrifice throw.

 

Either a throw maneuver or a grab maneuver is enough to achieve some combat effect a player might want, but what is specifically being asked for seems to be grab with the limitation, "must follow throw", (giving the martial artist the option to let go instead of hanging on) or a combined maneuver that leaves the opponent prone while being held (redundant disadvantages) without the option to let go but taking less time.

 

Tactically, it gets expensive to build a decent martial artist with the combined maneuver, since being able to let go of someone you've just thrown can be very desirable, in particular if you've just rendered yourself prone.

 

If I were doing it, I'd look at modifying Sacrifice Throw, to add the outcome, "target held" for an additional 1 point. (Making it a 4 pt maneuver, because while it is slightly advantageous to not need to establish a grab next phase, it is a big disadvantage to be holding onto someone prone, even though letting go is a zero phase action.)

I'm thinking that I'm messing up heroes terminology, but your post helps.

 

I may need to look at a lesser effect than a hold, since the idea is a slight advantage from the control of one limb at the end of a throw, or two at the end of a sacrifice throw, which would qualify as a hold, so two different moves at this point.

[Hyper-Man]

It really sounds like you are trying to create new combat timing rules for HERO instead working with the existing ones.

 

I had a similar goal when I first joined this forum back in 2004.

I tried very hard to build an effect inspired by Dragon Ball Z where a fighter flies towards an opponent and at the last moment adds a burst of speed that is so fast that he can't be seen and suddenly reappears behind the opponent to deliver the blow.  I tried creating a literal translation via Flight and a Triggered Teleport that would allow the character to maintain Flight velocity for a Move Through. There was just no way to build the effect to fit within 1 Phase.  I just had to accept that it was a 2 step sequence.

 

I am pretty sure you are having a similar issue with reconciling the effect you have imagined with the existing maneuvers designed specifically to model such an effect.  Note that a maneuver that includes Grab & Target Falls IS a Grab + "throw to ground & maintain Grab" where the throw is not doing any additional damage.

 

Here are other related maneuvers from my John Wick example worth looking at:

 

5    8)  Joint Break (Custom):  1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -2 DCV, Grab One Limb,  HKA 1 1/2d6, Disable

[Notes: (Sambo)]
3    9)  Joint Lock (Custom):  1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, -1 DCV,  25 STR , Grab One Limb
4    10) Joint Lock/Throw:  1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, Grab One Limb; 1d6 NND ; Target Falls

3    15) Sacrifice Throw:  1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +1 DCV, 3d6 Strike; You Fall, Target Falls

[TheDarkness]

It really sounds like you are trying to create new combat timing rules for HERO instead working with the existing ones.

 

I had a similar goal when I first joined this forum back in 2004.

I tried very hard to build an effect inspired by Dragon Ball Z where a fighter flies towards an opponent and at the last moment adds a burst of speed that is so fast that he can't be seen and suddenly reappears behind the opponent to deliver the blow.  I tried creating a literal translation via Flight and a Triggered Teleport that would allow the character to maintain Flight velocity for a Move Through. There was just no way to build the effect to fit within 1 Phase.  I just had to accept that it was a 2 step sequence.

 

I am pretty sure you are having a similar issue with reconciling the effect you have imagined with the existing maneuvers designed specifically to model such an effect.  Note that a maneuver that includes Grab & Target Falls IS a Grab + "throw to ground & maintain Grab" where the throw is not doing any additional damage.

 

Here are other related maneuvers from my John Wick example worth looking at:

 

5    8)  Joint Break (Custom):  1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, -2 DCV, Grab One Limb,  HKA 1 1/2d6, Disable

[Notes: (Sambo)]

3    9)  Joint Lock (Custom):  1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, -1 DCV,  25 STR , Grab One Limb

4    10) Joint Lock/Throw:  1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, Grab One Limb; 1d6 NND ; Target Falls

3    15) Sacrifice Throw:  1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +1 DCV, 3d6 Strike; You Fall, Target Falls

Yes, this helps a lot, I should have looked at that earlier.

 

My intent was more using what is there to flesh out a groundfighting martial art. So throwing to the ground while maintaining the hold was not more damaging, but instead gave a ocv bonus for followup. From there, a lock could be a lock, a choke, a choke, all taking their appropriate time to perform. There were only a couple additions I was going to add in, basically related to guard and mount.

 

Part of the goal is to make it so that such a character, fighting someone with more stand up fighting skills, would have more options on the ground, just as stand up fighting has more, but sticking to variations of the stand up moves where available. This way, unarmed fighters could have more variety, and pros and cons, but mainly, because I'm enjoying the build process.

[薔薇語]

Just look at your goals and see what mechanical effects you want to follow:

Goal 1: Grapple target.

Desired Mechanical Effects: Reduced DCV and OCV for grabbed character. Grabbed character can not move away without breaking the grab. The Grabbed character acts slower than the grabber.

To achieve this without special builds or Martial Arts, use the standard GRAB maneuver on page 62 of 6ED V2.

To achieve this with a Martial Art, use a standard Martial Grab: 5pt, -1 OcV & DcV and plus 10STR for the hold.

Goal 2: Damage and drop a grappled target.

Desired Mechanical Effects: Deal damage to an already grappled target and force that target to fall while not retraining the grapple.

To achieve this without special builds or Martial Arts, use the standard Squeeze or Slam maneuver on page 62. At the end of the attack, declare you are NOT retaining the grapple as a free action.

To achieve this with Martial Arts, use a standard Martial Strike or other such attack. many are listed on page 90.

Goal 3: Damage and drop a grappled target.

Desired Mechanical Effects: Deal damage to an already grappled target and force that target to fall while retraining the grapple.

To achieve this without special builds or Martial Arts, use the standard Squeeze or Slam maneuver on page 62. At the end of the attack, declare you ARE retaining the grapple.

To achieve this with Martial Arts, use a standard Martial Strike or other such attack. many are listed on page 90.

Goal 4: Damage and Drop a grappled target while also dropping yourself.

Desired Mechanic Effects: Maybe deal damage to an already grappled target and force that target to fall while falling yourself. The grapple is maintained.

To achieve this without special builds or Martial Arts, use the standard Slam or Throw Maneuver on page 62. Discuss with the GM that while doing this, you want both you and the target to fall prone while you maintain the grapple. As a GM I would allow a trained combatant to use an Throw maneuver easily to achieve this and might allow a Slam to work so that the attacker also gets to do damage. This is GM choice.

To achieve this with Martial Arts, use a "Sacrifice Throw" (listed above) and state to the GM that you wish to retain the grapple.

Goal 5: Achieve Goal 1 and either Goal 3, or 4 at the same time.

Desired Mechanical Effects: Go from a standard non-grapple condition to Grabbing a target and dealing damage / throwing / dropping them while maintaining the grapple. Damage may or may not be important in this bit.

To achieve this, there are many options. To grab and immediately deal damage with some technique, use a multi-attack option that includes a Grab and one of the attacks in Goal 3 or 4.

Goal 6: Achieve Goal 1 and Goal 2 at the same time.

Desired Mechanical Effects

: Go from a standard non-grapple condition to grabbing a target and dealing damage / throwing / dropping them while NOT maintaining the grapple. Damage may or may not be important in this bit.

To achieve this goal, completely ignore Goal 1. DO NOT attempt a grab. Only do a standard attack (Strike, Trip, Throw, etc). The special effect will be that you grabbed them and the executed the follow through attack. But as special effect is not what determines mechanical effect, do not worry about the fact that the mechanics make no mention of the 'obvious' grab.

---

You can splice in various joint locks and such to execute special mechanic effects, too.

If you want your character to be extra powerful while on the ground and executing jujitu maneuvers, then buy up your Martial Arts damage and Combat Skill bonuses. Perhaps even buy bonus DCV while on the ground to offset the half DCV you get from other, non grappled target, attackers.

---

The single most important thing to keep in mind is that flare and amazing special effects are icing on the cake: they are not the cake. Bruce Lee and Let Li have done some absolutely amazing things that have displayed an extremely wide array of Martial Arts that are all uniquely different. 99% of all their wonderfully diverse and beautiful attacks are covered with only 3 or 4 basic Martial Arts Maneuvers listed in HERO. That is because there is mechanically very little different from a Karate chop, a Kungfu tiger claw, and a taikwando kick despite them being visually very different.

Foreign Orchid.

[TheDarkness]

Thanks, Foreign Orchid. Definitely food for thought!

 

I'll have to give this all some thought. As groundfighting is actually quite different from standup(for example, in most situations, being in a groundfighting position essentially takes away the effectiveness of most strikes EXCEPT in one particular position). I totally, where possible, want to adapt or use what is already there in the fighting system, so chokes, jointlocks, there is no need to mess with them.

[Ninja-Bear]

The Darkness one thought I have is that you could have combat skill levels that only take place after your throw to help with the next maneuver. Also look at counter strike maneuver and you could modify it for your follow up technique.

[薔薇語]

There is a nugget of mechanical effect in what you just stated, "[G]roundfighting postions essentially takes away the effectiveness of most strikes."

So, either the damage dealt is easier to take / reduced or the likelihood to hit with an effective strike is less. Guess what, Grappling achieves exactly that. The grabbed target (assuming roughly equal strength) is at half DcV against ALL attackers, -3 OcV against the Grabber, and half OcV against all other attacks. And that is assuming the grab doesn't disable his ability to attack (being grabbed prevents use of foci and limits other attacks). 

You can add to this combat effectiveness by countering the Half DcV penalty vs the grabbed character. If your character has a normal DcV of 8, he would be at 4 with the grapple. You can counter this by buying +8 DcV from Penalty Skill levels to offset Grappled DCV minus - 16 points. Now your character can grapple at full DcV. Tack on a -1 limitation (only versus the Grabbed target), and it becomes only 8 points. The grabbed target will not be hitting your character because he is just too skilled to allow them a chance. 

 

Foreign Orchid. 

[TheDarkness]

The Darkness one thought I have is that you could have combat skill levels that only take place after your throw to help with the next maneuver. Also look at counter strike maneuver and you could modify it for your follow up technique.

Brilliant! Yes, I'll definitely be looking into that!

[TheDarkness]

There is a nugget of mechanical effect in what you just stated, "[G]roundfighting postions essentially takes away the effectiveness of most strikes."

 

So, either the damage dealt is easier to take / reduced or the likelihood to hit with an effective strike is less. Guess what, Grappling achieves exactly that. The grabbed target (assuming roughly equal strength) is at half DcV against ALL attackers, -3 OcV against the Grabber, and half OcV against all other attacks. And that is assuming the grab doesn't disable his ability to attack (being grabbed prevents use of foci and limits other attacks). 

 

You can add to this combat effectiveness by countering the Half DcV penalty vs the grabbed character. If your character has a normal DcV of 8, he would be at 4 with the grapple. You can counter this by buying +8 DcV from Penalty Skill levels to offset Grappled DCV minus - 16 points. Now your character can grapple at full DcV. Tack on a -1 limitation (only versus the Grabbed target), and it becomes only 8 points. The grabbed target will not be hitting your character because he is just too skilled to allow them a chance. 

 

Foreign Orchid. 

Okay, good info. Here's the rub(and I'm not being picky with your responses, you're giving me good, useful info, I'm just trying to better explain myself as these things come up).

 

In groundfighting, striking is severely limited in effectiveness for BOTH people, UNLESS one happens to be in one particular position.

 

Generally speaking, two moderately competent ground fighters are always in a mutual grab. And being on the ground means that all the power generation of a normal strike, which relies on footwork and waist work, are right out the window, except when one person gets what is called full mount, which is not easy to do for long(barring a difference in skill levels).

 

In real terms, striking in ground work suffers a penalty to damage classes, except in full mount. I know this brings us away from the discussion of the initial throw, but it's very helpful to me, thanks so much for the info you've given!

[薔薇語]

If you think your character should be less competent while fighting on the ground than while in a normal fight, just use the RAW. There doesn't need to be any change as you will be at some level of disadvantage. If you want you, the player, could always choose to attack at less power and claim it was because of the grapple. That is to say that if you have a 30 STR and are grappling someone, normally you should be able to deliver a standard 6d6 strike against them. But if you think you should be at reduced capacity, just elect to do 5 or 4d6. If you want it to be mechanically necessary, you could simply buy 10 of your 30 STR with a limitation "-1/2, can not add to damage DCs against personally grappled targets". You'd save maybe 2 or 3 points but I don't see much need for that. 

If you conversely want to make the grabbed character less effective because they are grabbed, you are already doing so by grabbing them. They are less able to hit and more able to be hit. If you also want to have a way to reduce their damage, too, then there are ways to do this. But things really start getting overly complicated. 

"You just can leverage yourself" - Drain vs Strength w/ Trigger (automatically resets as a zero phase and is triggered by grappling a target on the ground) and Limited Power (-1/2 drained strength is drained only for the purposes of DC calculation - they still retain their Strength at full for other aspects). 

Perhaps more straight forward,

"You just can't leverage yourself" - Damage Negation vs 2 (or more) DCs of Physical Damage. Tack on a major limitation saying it only works against attacks from a grappled opponent. 

Both builds (the second being the easiest) will reduce the combat effectiveness of the grappled target even more than the normal penalties already imposed from being grappled. And if you really want to also limit yourself beyond your normal limitations, you are always free to freely drop your OcV, DcV, and Damage at any time for cinematic reasons. You could buy your OcV, DcV, and DCs with some odd additional limitations to explain why you become oddly less effective while grappling, too. 

---

Okay, I am completely and utterly confused by what you want from this. 

You want to create a certain combat effect. But at best your description is vague so I have been trying to fill it in cleanly and neatly but I feel that I am missing something drastic. Would you please explain in Mechanical detail what you want to achieve? Forego any description of special effects: no mentions of twisting writs, flipping people, etc.. Only what mechanical effects you want: I grab target, target falls, target takes damage, Target deals less damage, I deal less damage, etc. 

I ask because I feel quite confused. Having given what I thought was a comprehensive list of mechanical options to achieve a wide variety of special effects, you respond with a comment about how it isn't achieving what you are looking for. Instead you want things to be less effective for your character? 

Soar. 

[TheDarkness]

I have to meet a student's parents, but I just want to make clear, you are being a big help, please don't assume your contribution is the problem, I'll explain myself better as I have time.

[TheDarkness]

Okay, on the initial question, the options given seem to be the right tracks I need to look at: a throw ending with a grab, which gives an OCV advantage for certain followups.

 

Overall, the throw is an excuse to work on a more developed ground fighting martial art, as I feel the ground fighting as presented is adequate for very basic situations, but precludes someone who wants to make a ground fighter, so points that have been raised on this thread definitely gave me a lot of food for thought about the problems and possibilities in establishing such a thing.

 

So, the original question, the throw, has been well answered. Thanks!

 

On the larger issue of groundfighting, I'll have to do more research and ironing out details, based on what everyone here has been saying and what I've been reading. It's not about character effectiveness, but game dynamics in a game that could have a number of martial artists.

 

I'm not intending to recreate wholesale a style, but enough of the flavor of one to make it fun and challenging.

 

Usually, the ground fight starts with a regular throw or take down, trip, what have you. After that, locks and chokes are a more immediate threat than strikes. Strikes require a highly advantageous position to be damaging. Most of the fight is getting into position to do any of these.

 

So, I see in the UMA book(assuming, for now, that the costs remain the same from fifth edition to sixth, I'm not sure on that), that there is a reversal move, obviously there are already joint lock builds, choke builds. Those don't need any change. Could probably establish 'guard', the defensive positions, as similar to block, maybe not. I'll have to think about that. So yes, I may be able to do most of it based on the preexisting moves.

 

Striking needs one change to reflect that being on the ground reduces the damage of most strikes, not for one character, but for all. This is a bit of a problem, as the simplest way is to place that limitation on all strikes('reduced DC on ground') except a generic 'Ground and Pound', but this would change a lot of costs, if by a small amount.

 

Actually, now that I think about this, perhaps not much more is needed. Most other positions could merely be description based on the dice roll. The strike is the main sticking point.

[TheDarkness]

Ooooh, missed the damage negation build above! Nice! You're absolutely right, that would solve the striking issue!

 

Thank you!

[Ninja-Bear]

The Darkness one thing to bear in mind is that the martial art maneuvers originally were developed to represent cinematic style of mainly kung fu of the Chop Suey style of movies. It took me alonh time to get that concept my head. Its not impossible to have maneuver that are more realistic, its just going to take more work.

[TheDarkness]

The Darkness one thing to bear in mind is that the martial art maneuvers originally were developed to represent cinematic style of mainly kung fu of the Chop Suey style of movies. It took me alonh time to get that concept my head. Its not impossible to have maneuver that are more realistic, its just going to take more work.

Yeah, I had noticed that, and I'm okay with that. I'm working on two campaigns, one a superheroic one, one a Dark Champions, gritty one.

 

The goal with the ground fighting, with the first, is not hyper-realism, but still broadening hth for variety and a fun challenge(yes, your hero is a great martial artist, but on the ground, this guy you're fighting is better, and let the struggle begin). Towards that, I think I may be able to do it by mirroring the stand up fighting rules. So dodge and block might have their own terms, locks and chokes will be largely unchanged.

 

As I said, striking is the biggest hitch. As it stands, the better striker will, given the chance to strike, maintain that advantage, and that's going to kill the ground fighting feel. (It doesn't help that a number of the people who will likely be playing are martial artists, myself included. We all know how hard it is to actually strike on the ground. It doesn't need to be detailed, or even realistic, but it does need to 'feel' right).

 

The other issue I appear to be facing is that, while I see the point values for the maneuvers and how to build them according to the point values in the build a power section of The Ultimate Martial Artist, I'm playing sixth edition, and I'm not sure if those values still apply. And those values seem somewhat arbitrary and divorced from the system, but that's probably because I don't grasp the build behind them. I suppose I could build the maneuvers like powers and see how they compare. The values in the martial maneuvers seem arbitrary to me, but I could be wrong.

 

Once that's done, I think it will suffice for the Dark Hero campaign, because it will not be unusual to have to decide whether it's a good idea to try to go to the ground with that guy with the knife.

[Ninja-Bear]

Going to ground with a guy with a knife isn't as much of an issue. Its whether said guy has friends that can stab your back while your on the ground thats an issue.

[Ninja-Bear]

Very brief history of martial maneuvers. Iirc third edition made martial arts cost only ten points and you got basically the generic martial package. Aaron Allston for fourth edition wrote Ninja Hero and he based the cost of maneuvers off both the ten points of the previous edition and how much a free maneuver costed.

[Ninja-Bear]

Incindentally Ninja Hero fourth had optional maneuver buy system where custom maneuvers could cost upto 8pts

And you buy abort for your martial punch! And chokehold was never the correct DCV either!