Sanity-Check: Extra Limbs with IPE & Indirect advantages?

[Surrealone]

Hyper-man:

I'll have to ponder those to see if they can be hammered into something affordable, as ideally the ability will be natural to the character (i.e. not in a framework).  In a ~200pt game they just don't make any sense as added flavor/flair due to cost -- unless in a framework.  However, at that point level, I may have to scrap the 'natural' aspect and use in a framework is certainly doable.

 

 

Okay, I admit I overlooked that one. But I suspect there won't be much difference between editions on these issues.

For instance, I don't think you can get the effect you want with Extra Limbs with Indirect no matter which edition.

 

I think what's going on with that is that we're thinking you SHOULDN'T have to endure Damage Shield damage and the like with the kind of power you describe, i.e. if Magneto picks up a red hot piece of iron nearby he shouldn't get burned like he would picking it up by hand, even if he can "feel" perfectly well what it is, where it is, and even how hot it is. So if your proposed build would end up with Magneto picking up the hot iron and yelling "Gaaahh! That's hot!" maybe that can be taken as a sign that you're not really building the power you envision.
 

It's also been pointed out that there are ways to provide that sense of Touch and get around that objection. But you have a very good point with your next objection here, which I'm going to bold and underline for emphasis:
 

There may not be a way to use Telekinesis to get that effect, so I think you have a strong point there that it may be a blind alley so to speak. It's the point that convinced me that Telekinesis isn't the way to go, unless whoever is running the game has already said they'll handwave that point.
 

I have an idea how to build this now.

edit: Here are two proposals.

"She seems to have an Invisible Touch, yeah": (Total: 17 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) Extra Limbs (20) (5 Active Points); Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Extra Time (Extra Phase, Only to Activate, -1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4), Limited Power Can't do damage or add to damage (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) <b>plus</b> Range with Normal Touch (5 Active Points); Limited Power Extremely Limited Range (-1 1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) <b>plus</b> +3 STR, Area Of Effect (4m Radius Explosion; +0), Selective (+1/4), Indirect (Source Point can vary from use to use, path can change with every use; +1) (7 Active Points); Costs END To Maintain (Full END Cost; -1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Only with Extra Limbs (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4), Limited Power Can't do damage or add to damage (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2)


"She seems to have an Invisible Touch, yeah": (Total: 17 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) Extra Limbs (20) (5 Active Points); Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Extra Time (Extra Phase, Only to Activate, -1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4), Limited Power Can't do damage or add to damage (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) <b>plus</b> Range with Normal Touch (5 Active Points); Limited Power Extremely Limited Range (-1 1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) <b>plus</b> +3 STR, Limited Range (+1/4), Indirect (Source Point can vary from use to use, path can change with every use; +1) (7 Active Points); Costs END To Maintain (Full END Cost; -1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Only with Extra Limbs (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4), Limited Power Can't do damage or add to damage (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2)


If neither of those work, I suggest using Telekinesis after all but with some kind of Custom Adder or Advantage to do for it what Extra Limbs does for STR.



Lucius Alexander

Invisible Indirect Palindromedary

 

Interesting stabs; I think we're getting there.  I would think Full IPE would be needed on the powers so that only the manipulation of the various objects was visible.  Also, I'm not 100% sure why the ranged touch would be needed if actual limbs were in use -- so I'd like to know your thinking behind that part.  Last, I'm not seeing this as being any stronger than the character's base strength, so perhaps naked advantages on the base strength make the most sense instead of the +3 that you've got?  Or ... is there a reason you took the approach you did that I've missed?

 

Thinking aloud:
The AE explosion is kind of interesting, as it implies a weakening in strength away from the explosion.  That said, I think the second approach is probably cleaner?  Also, what's the Unified Power bit?  (Remember, I'm in a 5e world...)

[Lucius]

Interesting stabs;

I wouldn't recommend this build if you're planning to use it to stab someone.

 

I think we're getting there.  I would think Full IPE would be needed on the powers so that only the manipulation of the various objects was visible.

In the movie scene or scenes you're describing, did you think "Wow, look at Magneto casually lifting and moving around all those objects" or did you think "Wow, look at all those objects just floating around by themselves, I wonder what's causing that?" If your reaction was the latter, you want Invisible Power Effects. If your reaction was the former, you do not need Invisible Power Effects.

 

Also, I'm not 100% sure why the ranged touch would be needed if actual limbs were in use -- so I'd like to know your thinking behind that part.

Before I address that, I need to mention something important I forgot to say: The version with Ranged STR is technically a violation of the Rules as Written. I don't want anyone to think I am unaware of that rule, but I am willing to ignore it in some circumstances.

 

As for my thinking, either Ranged STR or Area Effect STR arguably entail exerting STR against something without actually "touching" it, so being able to feel the object being handled would seem to call for a Sense Enhancer.

 

 

Last, I'm not seeing this as being any stronger than the character's base strength, so perhaps naked advantages on the base strength make the most sense instead of the +3 that you've got?  Or ... is there a reason you took the approach you did that I've missed?

For one thing, I see this as separate from the normal physical STR, such that this power would operate even if the character were paralyzed and unable to exert normal STR. Also, my version calls for only a STR of 3; if you want a Naked Advantage on a STR of 10, that's more expensive.

 

Thinking aloud:

The AE explosion is kind of interesting, as it implies a weakening in strength away from the explosion.  That said, I think the second approach is probably cleaner?  Also, what's the Unified Power bit?  (Remember, I'm in a 5e world...)

You can also add the Reduced by Range Limitation to the Ranged version.

 

Unified Power means that if any of the Powers that are Unified with one another is Drained, Dispelled, etc, then all are effected the same way.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Invisible Palindromedary Effects

 

[Tasha]

BTW Champions Powers (for 6e) or UNTIL Superpowers Database I and II (for 5e). Have a ton of powers for Champions built. Among them is Telekinetic Touch which is bought as Spacial Awareness. Those books have proven to be quite valuable when I am building a character and need to see how someone else would approach a particular ability build.

Tasha

[massey]

It really depends on what you want this power to do.  Because this sounds like a combination of potentially several different powers to me.

 

 

 

"Feeling" your surroundings -- This is Spatial Awareness, or maybe you could buy the Ranged adder on your sense of touch.

 

Moving a bunch of objects that are nearby -- This might be Area Effect TK.  Or it might be Change Environment.  It just depends.

 

Grabbing something from an opponent -- This is probably just regular TK.

 

 

As you get into different uses of your power, your build is going to become more expensive.  Doing what Magneto did, where you grab a bunch of cop guns and spin them around, that's Area Effect TK selective, and maybe an Area Effect RKA selective.  If you're just moving around a bunch of little objects just to show off, you just need Change Environment.  I wouldn't even make you buy points of TK strength if you're moving around stuff that wasn't really "there" until you asked the GM about it, if that makes sense.

[Surrealone]

Lucius:

Thanks for the explanation.  I follow that completely and think it's got substance.  See my response to Tasha, below, on why I thought IPE would be required.

 

Tasha:

I own (and consulted) the UNTIL Superpowers DB I & II for 5e prior to posting.  I saw Telekinetic Touch in DB I -- which was touch at range, not spatial awareness.  It didn't quite fit the bill.  I also saw the Psychokinetic Limbs in DB I, which was, indeed, extra limbs -- and described a physical appearance to the limbs.  My extra limbs buildout is, in fact, based on DB I's Psychokinetic Limbs build -- but I added IPE to try to eliminate the need for a physical appearance for the limbs ... and I thought indirect would allow for around corners, toward the character, as well as basically affording a touch at range capability.  It may be simplest to link the two, ensuring IPE, and call it a day -- or just stick to the IPE extra limbs and call it a day. Indirect just seems to add confusion...

 

Massey:

​I'm not trying to do an AE TK in combat like Magneto did; I already have that kind of capability within a VPP if I want it.  This is something purely for fun/flair/small stuff (Newton's cradle, pulling up a chair, turning the pages of a book, etc ... all at once ... for cinematic effect.

[massey]

If it's just cinematic effect, I think Change Environment is perfect. None of the things you're going to be lifting and moving around would even be detailed by the GM if you didn't have the power and ask about moving them. None of it will have any combat effect, and it's just to look cool. That's what CE was made for.

 

I look around my office right now, and I see two pens, a stapler, a half dozen file folders, an empty styrofoam cup, a trash can, a few little Christmas decorations, some books on the shelf, and my telephone, computer, and printer. Oh yeah, and a desk and three chairs. None of those things are particularly important from a Champions perspective. Other than the desk and chairs, and maybe the computer, none of them are things that a GM would probably bother to detail unless you specifically asked him about it. It's just background clutter. It's not really "there" in an RPG until you ask about it.

 

What I'm saying is you don't need to worry about Area Effect, Selective, Accurate, etc, and rolling a bunch of to-hits against DCV 3 or anything like that. Change Environment covers it all. "Nearby objects float around by themselves" works just fine with CE. It's not really important what any given object is doing. No one is going to care where my stapler goes, the exact path it travels. My stapler didn't even exist, really, until you told the GM you wanted to make it float around in the air.

[Tasha]

For a non combat effect, I might allow someone with TK (and Fine manipulation)to make a Power Skill roll to pull off what you are trying to do. Justification being that you could "spread" your tk to fill pretty much the whole room. None of the objects are heavier than 50kg (AKA 5str). One of the biggest tricks that players and GMs in hero eventually learn is to "Not sweat the little stuff". Let the PC's do cool stuff with their powers as long as it's not a combat effect, what does it hurt to make a character look cooler.

 

PS, I really didn't look close at the books that I talked about for the "official" build. I have been playing since the beginning of time and 'how' to do stuff shifts between edition sometimes. 

[Surrealone]

I have been playing since the beginning of time and 'how' to do stuff shifts between edition sometimes. 

 

I know this feeling well.  I remember the three original, thin, soft-backed books that were eventually combined into 4th Ed.  I also remember the boxed off sections with tips to catch rounds at 3 and 8 -- which 4th Ed. eliminated.

 

Despite that, I still enjoy technical accuracy when modeling powers.  That's half the fun of it for me.