Sanity-Check: Extra Limbs with IPE & Indirect advantages?

[Surrealone]

Concept:
Telekinetic ability to perform multiple small tasks in the same or adjacent hexes using normal strength -- including tasks that entail the sense of touch (e.g. feeling one's way along a wall -- without touching it).  Task examples: Pick something up and have it float to the character, type something, unlock a door, slide a bolt, flip the safety on a firearm (or even multiples), pick a lock, etc. -- potentially several of these at once.

 

5e Build:

8 Real, 10 Active:

100 Extra Limbs, IPE: SFX Only [+1/2], Indirect: Same Origin, Any Direction [+1/2], Non-Persistent [-1/4]

 

I believe the power effects would be fully invisible with only the +1/2 IPE, specifically because the power is 0 END and the source is already considered invisible (at least per this thread: http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/8954-extra-limbs-are-already-invisible/).

 

Notes: 

* Primary intent is to simulate a TK capability much like Magneto exhibits in the X-Men movies -- where he's typically controlling metal near him just for amusement (example: the scene with Newton's cradle) or to save himself effort (example: TK'ing Wolverine's dog tag from Sabertooth in the same scene Newton's cradle is shown).

* My goal is NOT reinvention of TK.  TK has no sense of touch; this does.  It's also highly limited in range although stretching with IPE would also be appropriate to extend its range.

* If non-combat only were added to this as a limitation, would you give it [-1]?

 

Thoughts?

[NuSoardGraphite]

The base power is 0 end, but the STR expenditure of manipulating objects is not.

 

This works just fine. It would allow your character to do many things at once, but if skill rolls are needed, I would impose penalties based on the number of different things you were doing.

[bigbywolfe]

This would not work for your example of feeling your way along a walk without touching it. IPE does not change the fact that you ARE touching the wall and will be subject to any Damage Shield type attacks of anything you touch.

[Surrealone]

The base power is 0 end, but the STR expenditure of manipulating objects is not.

 

This works just fine. It would allow your character to do many things at once, but if skill rolls are needed, I would impose penalties based on the number of different things you were doing.

That's perfectly in tune with my expectation -- both on the end cost for STR usage and even on the penalties based on the number of things done at once.

 

 

 

This would not work for your example of feeling your way along a walk without touching it. IPE does not change the fact that you ARE touching the wall and will be subject to any Damage Shield type attacks of anything you touch.

Certainly the character could feel his way along the wall (say in the dark, to find a door) with this.  Avoidance of a damage shield, is, however, a different issue that I hadn't attempted to consider/address.

 

Considering it now -- IPE won't change the fact that a surface can be felt.  However the indirect advantage could potentially be at play since, very technically, the limb (but not the rest of the character's body) is touching the surface due to the indirect advantage ... and the character can feel the surface because of tactile transmission via said limb.

 

In such a case, it's likely a GM call as to what happens.  I could see the limb taking all of the damage (and potentially losing the limb).  I could also see feedback through the limb to the character if the special effects of the damage shield are tactile/touch-based .... and the character taking the damage.  I'm good with either/both, as appropriate.

[bigbywolfe]

You said:

 

 

Telekinetic ability to perform multiple small tasks in the same or adjacent hexes using normal strength -- including tasks that entail the sense of touch (e.g. feeling one's way along a wall -- without touching it).

If you touch something you are subject to Damage Shields and other touch based effects, if you don't touch something you are not.  By RAW, Extra Limbs with IPE are still you touching the wall and the SFX don't change that mechanically. Indirect also would not negate Damage Shields and such.  You can touch something indirectly using Stretching and are still subject to all the rules of touching that something, even with the Does Not Cross Intervening Space Adder (or however it's worded).  I'm not even sure how Indirect and Extra Limbs interact per RAW so you may already be in GM/House Rule territory with that build.

My point is not that you can't feel the wall with your invisible limbs, but that you can't feel the wall and not be subject to Touch based mechanics just because of your chosen SFX.  Obviously if you want to have it work that way it's your game.  I just commenting on the mechanics of the build.

[Lucius]

You can buy the Adjacent Sense Modifier for Normal Touch for 3 pts and for Touch Group for 5.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says this enables you to perceive from a point up to 2 meters from yourself.

[Surrealone]

You can buy the Adjacent Sense Modifier for Normal Touch for 3 pts and for Touch Group for 5.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says this enables you to perceive from a point up to 2 meters from yourself.

And link it to TK ... but how would you lift/control multiple small things simultaneously with it?

[Surrealone]

 

You said:

 

 

 

If you touch something you are subject to Damage Shields and other touch based effects, if you don't touch something you are not.  By RAW, Extra Limbs with IPE are still you touching the wall and the SFX don't change that mechanically. Indirect also would not negate Damage Shields and such.  You can touch something indirectly using Stretching and are still subject to all the rules of touching that something, even with the Does Not Cross Intervening Space Adder (or however it's worded).  I'm not even sure how Indirect and Extra Limbs interact per RAW so you may already be in GM/House Rule territory with that build.

 

My point is not that you can't feel the wall with your invisible limbs, but that you can't feel the wall and not be subject to Touch based mechanics just because of your chosen SFX.  Obviously if you want to have it work that way it's your game.  I just commenting on the mechanics of the build.

 

Stretching isn't inherently indirect; you'd have to apply the Indirect advantage.  As noted on the original build-out, I had placed Indirect on the Extra Limbs, not on stretching.  And as for indirectly touching something with an extra limb, my point was that you're not necessarily touching that something ... the limb is ... and you can sense what it touches ... but because of the indirect advantage ... ONLY the limb is touching that something ... and the character, by definition, isn't, else it would be ... wait for it ... direct.

 

To underscore my point, let's place 2" bullet proof glass between the character and the thing that the character's IPE, Indirect extra limb is touching. The character can feel what that limb touches ... but clearly his physical body isn't touching it because the limb is DETACHED (a la indirect) from his body, as evidenced by the ability to use that limb to touch said something despite the glass barrier being in the way.

 

Personally, I'm not terribly worried about it, because the design had nothing to do with avoiding damage shields ... and however the GM elects to call it ... is what it is.  That said, I'd call it differently than you would, because I see indirect on extra limbs as a detached limb that's still functional.

[Tasha]

It sounds like you want a limited range touch sense Spacial Awareness.

Those other builds just seem like you are trying to use a pair of pliers instead of a wrench. They all just sound like you are taking your special effect too literally and trying to build the power that way. Instead of asking yourself what the power will do in plain english, when you get right down to it. In this case it sounds like you want a telekinetic touch. That's Spacial Awareness.

[Lucius]

And link it to TK ... but how would you lift/control multiple small things simultaneously with it?

You wouldn't. A Sense doesn't lift and control objects.

 

But if you want to explore your immediate environment with a hundred invisible fingertips, even on the other side of a wall, I suggest buying Range and Penetrative with Touch.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

A hundred invisible palindromedaries

[Tasha]

I would think that Area of Effect would be the go to thing for lifting multiple things with TK. Going with extra limbs would mean -2 ocv per object lifted since it would be like an multiple attack.

 

44 Telekinesis (10 STR), Fine Manipulation, Area Of Effect Accurate (4m Radius; +1/2), Selective (+1/4) (44 Active Points) 

21 Telekinetic Touch:  Spatial Awareness (Unusual Group) (32 Active Points); Linked (Telekinesis; -1/2)

[bigdamnhero]

Dang. I saw "extra limbs" and "sanity check" and thought we were talking Cthulhu. 

 

100 Extra Limbs, IPE: SFX Only [+1/2], Indirect: Same Origin, Any Direction [+1/2], Non-Persistent [-1/4]

I think this is a solid build and a neat idea for the "juggling many things at once" part of your concept. But it doesn't get you around the "touching things without touching them" problem. For that you'd want Adjacent for Normal Touch, linked to your Extra Limbs, as suggested above. I might allow taking that as an Adder/Advantage on this power just to make things neater, but that's probably not book-legal. 

 

And as for indirectly touching something with an extra limb, my point was that you're not necessarily touching that something ... the limb is ... and you can sense what it touches ... but because of the indirect advantage ... ONLY the limb is touching that something ... and the character, by definition, isn't, else it would be ... wait for it ... direct.

So by that logic I'm not really touching my keyboard right now, only my hands are?   A character's limbs are part of the character, pretty-much by definition. Indirect lets you ignore barriers and obstacles, but it doesn't let you ignore feedback from touching something. The rules state that Stretching is inherently Indirect "in some respects," but Reed Richards stretching around a wall doesn't protect him from getting shocked when he sticks his finger in an outlet. (I'm sure that's happened in some FF back issue.)

[Surrealone]

AE TK completely misses the mark.  Spatial Awareness with some limitations is a solid idea; I need to give that some thought.  I don't have a problem with feedback from damage shields and the like flowing through indirect limbs, however I think there are cases where it makes no sense.  As an example, let's take electricity, which has to flow through directly through a medium of some kind; with 3/4 indirect allowing the limbs to ignore intervening barriers, it's clear there's no path through which the electricity would directly flow.  So how is that resolved?  (My answer: By a GM's call, most likely.

Bigdamnhero:
​And if you had 3/4 indirect on your hands and you were using them through a pane of glass, a wall, etc -- I would argue that yes, your hands were touching the keyboard but the rest of you was not technically connected to them.

[massey]

When you build something, the choices you make with your power construction have meaning.  Stretching, indirect or not, means damage shields will affect you.  Area Effect TK does what you want the way you've described it.  Change Environment, with TK strength as an adder, works as well, but will probably be more expensive than you need.  Cheaper to do regular AE TK.

 

Build it however you want, it's your character.  I'd do it with AE TK and a linked Spatial Awareness.

[Hyper-Man]

To echo the other voices on this...

 

A character with Stretching built with the Indirect and Does Not Cross Intervening Space Advantages will still be affected by touching anything that has a Damage Field effect on it.  There is currently no way to avoid this as Stretching itself is effectively an Advantage for Strength that just happens to be built as a "Naked Adder".

 

The villain Warp from Teen Titans was a teleporter who could literally open up warp gates that he and others could move through.  He could also just put his hand through and have the other end of the gate open behind someone's head.  If he touched something electrified with that hand he still got electrocuted.

 

If you want a ranged manifestation of Strength that has no chance of causing feedback to the owner of the power then Telekinesis is absolutely the best mechanical way to do it in HERO.

[Surrealone]

I really wish people would read the entire thread rather than simply responding to the latest post, as I've already made it clear, above, that:

• Primary intent is to simulate a TK capability much like Magneto exhibits in the X-Men movies -- where he's typically controlling metal near him just for amusement (example: the scene with Newton's cradle) or to save himself effort (example: TK'ing Wolverine's dog tag from Sabertooth in the same scene Newton's cradle is shown).
• My goal is NOT reinvention of TK.  TK has no sense of touch; this does.  It's also highly limited in range although stretching with IPE would also be appropriate to extend its range.
• Avoidance of a damage shield, is an issue that I hadn't attempted to consider/address; I'm fine with it however the GM would tend to call/play it, regardless of whether it differs from my own very-literal interpretation of the build.

 

I did ask one question in the original post to which no one's really provided feedback -- and I could use a second opinion:

• If non-combat only were added to the build (as noted in first post) as a limitation, would you give it [-1]?

[massey]

I do not understand what you are trying to do here.  Are you looking for how we would build a power to give the effect you asked for?  If so, we've answered that.  Are you asking if the power you have suggested will function?  I think that's been answered too.  It might work, but I still think there are problems with it.

 

Personally, I think you'd have to buy Invisible Power Effects on your Str, not just on the extra limbs and the stretching.  

[Lucius]

Does this character need Invisible Power Effects at all?

 

Anyone can see the objects being held and moved, and it's probably also clear who is doing it as well.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks I should try building it a couple of different ways

[bigdamnhero]

I really wish people would read the entire thread rather than simply responding to the latest post

We are. I'm sorry the answers you're getting aren't the ones you seem to want, but you asked for our opinions and we're giving them to you.

 

Primary intent is to simulate a TK capability much like Magneto exhibits in the X-Men movies

You want to simulate "a TK capability" but you don't want to use TK. You keep saying TK won't work here, but you haven't said why not? What you're describing is easily built as TK with a few Advantages/Adders, and I don't get why you're so resistant to the idea?

 

If you think Extra Limbs fits what you want better, great. But then don't get mad when people point out other issues that build raises. That's how game balance works: you have to take the bad with the good - unless you buy the bad off with Advantages natch. You don't just ignore the bad because that's not how you want it to work.

 

TK has no sense of touch; this does.

OK, so you buy Ranged or Adjacent for your Touch and link it to your TK. Done. That's not "reinventing" TK - it's adding an Advantage to an existing Power to make it work the way you want. I.e. - it's Hero.

 

If non-combat only were added to the build (as noted in first post) as a limitation, would you give it [-1]?

It depends on your campaign, the ratio of combat vs noncombat scenes, etc. Extra Limbs don't really have much of a direct combat effect anyway, so I might only go with -1/2; TK has many more combat applications, so -1 might be more appropriate there. I'm fine with letting players have "color" powers they can use to look cool but that don't have much game impact (as long as I know I can trust the player not to abuse it).

[bigdamnhero]

​And if you had 3/4 indirect on your hands and you were using them through a pane of glass, a wall, etc -- I would argue that yes, your hands were touching the keyboard but the rest of you was not technically connected to them.

Do I have sensory feedback from my fingers? If so, there's your pathway. (If not, I won't be able to type worth a damn!)

 

If you want to be able to feel things, you have to take the bad with the good.

[dmjalund]

I always thought that TK bought with Fine Manipulation came with a sense of touch as it seems to be needed.

[Hyper-Man]

I always thought that TK bought with Fine Manipulation came with a sense of touch as it seems to be needed.

 

There is no mention under the Fine Manipulation Adder section but the general Power description has the following.

From 6e1 page 294

 

Characters who want to have “sensory feedback” with their Telekinesis, so that they know what’s happening near objects that they’re telekinetically manipulating beyond their LOS, should Link the appropriate form of Clairsentience to their Telekinesis.

 

 

 

This folds in nicely with the sidebar example very likely inspired by Gil "The ARM" Hamilton from Larry Niven's Known Space universe.

 

Telekinetic Arm:

Telekinesis (10 STR), Fine Manipulation. Total cost: 25 points.

 

 

Adding a Limited Clairsentience build would allow for his ability to use his 'imaginary TK hand' to feel through a miniature 3-D hologram of the Moon's surface to locate something.

[Surrealone]

I'm sorry the answers you're getting aren't the ones you seem to want, but you asked for our opinions and we're giving them to you.

 

You want to simulate "a TK capability" but you don't want to use TK. You keep saying TK won't work here, but you haven't said why not? What you're describing is easily built as TK with a few Advantages/Adders, and I don't get why you're so resistant to the idea?

 

OK, so you buy Ranged or Adjacent for your Touch and link it to your TK. Done. That's not "reinventing" TK - it's adding an Advantage to an existing Power to make it work the way you want. I.e. - it's Hero.

 

It depends on your campaign, the ratio of combat vs noncombat scenes, etc. Extra Limbs don't really have much of a direct combat effect anyway, so I might only go with -1/2; TK has many more combat applications, so -1 might be more appropriate there. I'm fine with letting players have "color" powers they can use to look cool but that don't have much game impact (as long as I know I can trust the player not to abuse it).

1. I didn't set out for specific answers; I asked for a sanity check.  I'm open to opinions, but when I specify in the original post it's a 5e build and people quote 6e page numbers (for example), that's NOT indicative that people read the thread and are on the same page.
2. Likewise, when I specify that avoidance of a damage shield is an issue that I hadn't attempted to consider/address and indicate that I'm fine with it however the GM would tend to call/play it -- people belaboring my interpretation versus theirs is moot AND indicative that they didn't actually read the entire threat before responding.
3. I repeatedly indicated I wasn't using TK because it had no sense of touch associated with it.  Your statement that I didn't provide a rationale for why TK wasn't used ... only underscores that you didn't actually read the whole thread before responding.
4. I'm not resistant to using TK, at all.  However, no TK-based build suggested, so far, truly captures the goal outlined in the fist bullet point in the notes section of my first post -- which entails doing many things simultaneously via the power.  i.e. None of the suggested TK builds seem to allow for juggling while typing while reading braille while turning a door knob and opening a door (all at once) -- which is part of the desired effect.  I know some have suggested fine manipulation ... and I'd agree that's required to do any one of the things in the list I just provided ... but I don't think it covers doing them all at once.
5. Hyper-Man has actually posted a build (with clairsentience linked to it) that seems to make sense -- for one thing at a time.  I think it still misses the mark doing multiple things.  I also think it's absurdly expensive for a power intended only to add flair outside of combat -- and it's certainly MUCH more powerful (in terms of range, combat use, AND effects) than I am seeking.

Again, the primary intent is to simulate a TK capability much like Magneto exhibits in the X-Men movies -- where he's typically controlling metal near him just for amusement (example: the scene with Newton's cradle) or to save himself effort (example: TK'ing Wolverine's dog tag from Sabertooth in the same scene Newton's cradle is shown).  But there'd be a sense of touch involved, and per my example, multiple things being manipulated simultaneously -- in different locations/directions with a very short range.

[Lucius]

• I didn't set out for specific answers; I asked for a sanity check.  I'm open to opinions, but when I specify in the original post it's a 5e build and people quote 6e page numbers (for example), that's NOT indicative that people read the thread and are on the same page.

 

Okay, I admit I overlooked that one. But I suspect there won't be much difference between editions on these issues.

 

For instance, I don't think you can get the effect you want with Extra Limbs with Indirect no matter which edition.

 

 

 

• Likewise, when I specify that avoidance of a damage shield is an issue that I hadn't attempted to consider/address and indicate that I'm fine with it however the GM would tend to call/play it -- people belaboring my interpretation versus theirs is moot AND indicative that they didn't actually read the entire threat before responding.

 

I think what's going on with that is that we're thinking you SHOULDN'T have to endure Damage Shield damage and the like with the kind of power you describe, i.e. if Magneto picks up a red hot piece of iron nearby he shouldn't get burned like he would picking it up by hand, even if he can "feel" perfectly well what it is, where it is, and even how hot it is. So if your proposed build would end up with Magneto picking up the hot iron and yelling "Gaaahh! That's hot!" maybe that can be taken as a sign that you're not really building the power you envision.

 

 

• I repeatedly indicated I wasn't using TK because it had no sense of touch associated with it.  Your statement that I didn't provide a rationale for why TK wasn't used ... only underscores that you didn't actually read the whole thread before responding.

 

It's also been pointed out that there are ways to provide that sense of Touch and get around that objection. But you have a very good point with your next objection here, which I'm going to bold and underline for emphasis:

 

 

• I'm not resistant to using TK, at all.  However, no TK-based build suggested, so far, truly captures the goal outlined in the fist bullet point in the notes section of my first post -- which entails doing many things simultaneously via the power.  i.e. None of the suggested TK builds seem to allow for juggling while typing while reading braille while turning a door knob and opening a door (all at once) -- which is part of the desired effect.  I know some have suggested fine manipulation ... and I'd agree that's required to do any one of the things in the list I just provided ... but I don't think it covers doing them all at once.
• Hyper-Man has actually posted a build (with clairsentience linked to it) that seems to make sense -- for one thing at a time.  I think it still misses the mark doing multiple things.  I also think it's absurdly expensive for a power intended only to add flair outside of combat -- and it's certainly MUCH more powerful (in terms of range, combat use, AND effects) than I am seeking.

 

There may not be a way to use Telekinesis to get that effect, so I think you have a strong point there that it may be a blind alley so to speak. It's the point that convinced me that Telekinesis isn't the way to go, unless whoever is running the game has already said they'll handwave that point.

 

Again, the primary intent is to simulate a TK capability much like Magneto exhibits in the X-Men movies -- where he's typically controlling metal near him just for amusement (example: the scene with Newton's cradle) or to save himself effort (example: TK'ing Wolverine's dog tag from Sabertooth in the same scene Newton's cradle is shown).  But there'd be a sense of touch involved, and per my example, multiple things being manipulated simultaneously -- in different locations/directions with a very short range.

I have an idea how to build this now.

 

edit: Here are two proposals.

 

"She seems to have an Invisible Touch, yeah": (Total: 17 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) Extra Limbs (20) (5 Active Points); Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Extra Time (Extra Phase, Only to Activate, -1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4), Limited Power Can't do damage or add to damage (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) <b>plus</b> Range with Normal Touch (5 Active Points); Limited Power Extremely Limited Range (-1 1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) <b>plus</b> +3 STR, Area Of Effect (4m Radius Explosion; +0), Selective (+1/4), Indirect (Source Point can vary from use to use, path can change with every use; +1) (7 Active Points); Costs END To Maintain (Full END Cost; -1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Only with Extra Limbs (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4), Limited Power Can't do damage or add to damage (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2)

 

 

"She seems to have an Invisible Touch, yeah": (Total: 17 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) Extra Limbs (20) (5 Active Points); Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Costs Endurance (-1/2), Extra Time (Extra Phase, Only to Activate, -1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4), Limited Power Can't do damage or add to damage (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) <b>plus</b> Range with Normal Touch (5 Active Points); Limited Power Extremely Limited Range (-1 1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 1) <b>plus</b> +3 STR, Limited Range (+1/4), Indirect (Source Point can vary from use to use, path can change with every use; +1) (7 Active Points); Costs END To Maintain (Full END Cost; -1/2), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Only with Extra Limbs (-1/2), No Knockback (-1/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4), Unified Power (-1/4), Limited Power Can't do damage or add to damage (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2)

 

 

If neither of those work, I suggest using Telekinesis after all but with some kind of Custom Adder or Advantage to do for it what Extra Limbs does for STR.

 

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Invisible Indirect Palindromedary

[Hyper-Man]

Here's a 5e example build to ponder and modify.

 

33    Ultra Fine Control Area TK: Telekinesis (5 STR), Fine Manipulation, Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; This second instance of AOE for targeting the Selective portion of the first instance of the AOE Advantage; +1/2), Invisible to Hearing, and Sight Groups, Source Only (+1/2), Area Of Effect (3" Radius; +1), Selective (+1/4) (66 Active Points); Limited Power Only vs. Material (X) or object(s) in contact with Material (X) (-1/2), No Range (-1/2)

[Notes: This build can also easily be part of a Power Framework (Multipower or VPP) and increased in total power accordingly.]

19    Detect A Class Of Things (Material X) 11- (Touch Group), Discriminatory, Analyze, Increased Arc Of Perception (360 Degrees), Range, Rapid:  x10, Targeting (38 Active Points); Linked (Ultra Fine Control Area TK; -1/2), Limited Power Only vs. Material (X) or object(s) in contact with Material (X) (-1/2)