HtH Question with Deadly Blow and Fist Loads in 5e

[g3taso]

I have a character with 15 STR, which normally would be 3d6N damage. I understand with the doubling rule that using a Martial Strike (+5d6N) would increase this to 6d6N damage. My questions are:

 

1. Use of a fist load increases damage by 2d6N, so am I correct that in this case with 15STR and Martial Strike I would do 3d6+3d6+2d6=8d6N damage? If not, can you explain how this would be correctly summed?

 

2. The character in question already has Deadly Blow (1d6 killing), which adds to the base damage of weapons. I can see this going one of two ways:

  2a. 1d6 killing damage equates to 3d6N, adding to base damage for a new adjusted base of 6d6N damage. From here I can add my 5d6 Martial Strike damage and come out to 11d6N damage per strike with brass knuckles

  2b. I could convert the STR, Strike and fist load damage (10d6 total) and add 5 damage classes to the base 1d6 killing damage of Deadly Blow. This would leave me with 2d6+1 lethal damage per strike.

 

Really folks, this isn't a minmax question. I can't seem to find how to calculate this in the 5e revised book. Can someone tell me how to correctly compute these?

[Roter Baron]

Actually I may be mistaken about 5th Revised but as far as I know there is now doubling limit to Normal attacks, except when it comes to weapons.

So a herois character with STR 15 who delivers an Offensive Strike (+4D&) does 7D6 damage. With a Martila Strike it would be +2D6 (= 5D6 total), not +5D6.

The fist load is a weapon, so it isn't of much use if someone with Martial Arts uses it (since it maxes out at 4D6). Of course you could rule otherwise and simple say that brass knuckles in the meaty fists of a heavy-weight champion delivering the ultimate swinger (+4D6) is still good for its +2D6, or at least 1D6. Would make sense since weighting boxing gloves is an old trick of unfair contenders.

 

Deadly Blow is only good for Killing Attacks. It is not added to any Normal Damage.

 

My two €-cents. And hey: This is the HERO Forum - NEVER EVER excuse yourself for min-maxing! Might be a vice in other systems, with HERO it is an art form with a long tradition!   

[g3taso]

My bad on the Martial Strike damage (which is +2d6). So correctly, a 3d6STR + 2d6 Fist Load + 2d6 Martial Strike would be 7d6N as a strike? Fair enough. 

 

Regarding Deadly Blow:

   a) Should I just use spiked fist loads to do 2DC (1d6-1) lethal damage, modified by STR to 1d6? After adding in Martial Strike and Fist Load (4DCs between them) would I be 2d6+1 killing damage?

    Now, assuming the 1d6 Deadly Blow adds 3DCs to the base STR damage makes a 6d6N attack (Deadly Blow adding to 3d6 base). From there I can add +2d6 for Fist Loads and +2d6 for Martial strike for a total of 10d6N?

[Roter Baron]

Okay, your Cestus has, say, a STR-Min of 4 and does 1/2D6 Killing (2DC) and you have a STR of 15 and Martial Arts with Martial Strike.

That would be 1D6+1 Killing Attack since the Cestus maxes out at STR 15 already (2DC = 4 DC max = 1D6+1). The Martial Strikes does nothing to the damage but provides +2 DCV.

Now you have 1D6 Dealy Blow. I would think that that basically just adds to the end-damage, not the basix - so that is 2D6+1.

 

But the Deadly Blow does ZERO, NOTHING, ZILCH, NIX to your Normal damage capacity. You can kill people effectively, not knock them out more efficiently.

 

So, you simply can't "trade" the 1D6 Killing Blow to 2DC in Normal Damage. Buy Hand-to-Hand-Attacks or Damage Classe for your Martial Arts.

[Grailknight]

There was still a doubling rule in 5th but Deadly Blow adds to base damage. 

 

The 2 DC cestus goes to 5 DC and you get 3 DC from STR and 2 DC from Martial Strike.  You get to 10 DC so a  3d6+1 HKA.

[Ninja-Bear]

My bad on the Martial Strike damage (which is +2d6). So correctly, a 3d6STR + 2d6 Fist Load + 2d6 Martial Strike would be 7d6N as a strike? Fair enough.

 

Regarding Deadly Blow:

a) Should I just use spiked fist loads to do 2DC (1d6-1) lethal damage, modified by STR to 1d6? After adding in Martial Strike and Fist Load (4DCs between them) would I be 2d6+1 killing damage?

Now, assuming the 1d6 Deadly Blow adds 3DCs to the base STR damage makes a 6d6N attack (Deadly Blow adding to 3d6 base). From there I can add +2d6 for Fist Loads and +2d6 for Martial strike for a total of 10d6N?

As of now no you cannot. HKA do not add to Normal damage. Yes you are correct that the damage class implies that you can. You can design a deadly blow that works for Hand attack or i seen a deadly blow bought as combat skills levels only to increase damage and that works for either type of damage. Also to add martial art damage to weapon, you must have weapon element bought for the weapon.

[g3taso]

There was still a doubling rule in 5th but Deadly Blow adds to base damage. 

 

The 2 DC cestus goes to 5 DC and you get 3 DC from STR and 2 DC from Martial Strike.  You get to 10 DC so a  3d6+1 HKA.

4d6 w/Offensive Strike instead of Martial Strike   

 

Hitting that sucker from (out of combat) with surprise and a head called shot would increase typical damage from about 11pts to 22pts lethal and 220 STUN going with lethal damage. I love my +4 with Hit Locations!  It's a difficult situation to arrange (getting surprise), but sweeping someone with a couple of these (or autofiring) would take the starch out of Galactus!  (well, mebbe not Galactus)

[Roter Baron]

There was still a doubling rule in 5th but Deadly Blow adds to base damage. 

 

The 2 DC cestus goes to 5 DC and you get 3 DC from STR and 2 DC from Martial Strike.  You get to 10 DC so a  3d6+1 HKA.

 

Really? Can you tell me the page. Just curious because I would consider it then way too powerful. Deadly Blow seems aimed at Neroic campaigns and it you add it to the base then each and every dagger instantly turns out to be a Claymore (NOT the sword, THE LAND-MINE) damagewise.

 

2D6+1 is formidable enough for me, but please prove me wrong.

[g3taso]

Just for conversational purposes, I'm inquiring because I have a rogue-like character that is operating similarly to the Assassin class in many games. I do attack from surprise. In this case, I was curious if I had an alternative to just shanking someone. It might be nice to just knock them out instead of kill them.

[Grailknight]

Remembering this from a Steve ruling which caused me to house rule it in my games. Don't have access to 5er right now.

[Ninja-Bear]

Just for conversational purposes, I'm inquiring because I have a rogue-like character that is operating similarly to the Assassin class in many games. I do attack from surprise. In this case, I was curious if I had an alternative to just shanking someone. It might be nice to just knock them out instead of kill them.

I believe in fantasy you could do a "flat of the blade" where you could convert dc of killing attacks into dc of normal attacks.

[g3taso]

How would you calculate an advantage for something like this?

Let's say 2d6 Brass Knuckles(as HtH attack) + 3d6 STR = 5d6 base damage, with 4d6 Offensive Strike = 9d6 of HtH damage

How do I count the cost, let's day for Armor Piercing to add to this 9d6?

Or just get armor piercing on the brass knuckles and it applies to the whole attack?

[Hyper-Man]

How would you calculate an advantage for something like this?

Let's say 2d6 Brass Knuckles(as HtH attack) + 3d6 STR = 5d6 base damage, with 4d6 Offensive Strike = 9d6 of HtH damage

How do I count the cost, let's day for Armor Piercing to add to this 9d6?

Or just get armor piercing on the brass knuckles and it applies to the whole attack?

 

In 5e, Just putting AP on the base 2d6 HA of the Brass Knuckles means that the character could only do a maximum of 4d6 AP by using 10 STR. If they used more STR than that then the AP wouldn't apply at all. 

 

The cost of adding AP to the 9d6 would be a Naked Advantage applied to a base 45 Active Points.

 

In 6e, Just putting one level of AP (a +1/4 Advantage in 6e) on the base 2d6 HA means that additional STR would be prorated at a rate of 4/5 so 15 becomes 12 or +2d6 AP. 

 

I believe that in both 5e and 6e, bonus Maneuver damage could be added with no prorating required and keep the AP.

 

HM