Continuing Issue with Summon / Beastiary Costs

[farik]

Originally posted by Monolith

The extra DCV levels are because of their size. Prior to 5E you would have been forced to buy several levels of Shrinking Always On to represent the cat's size. In 5E you just buy levels with DCV and take a Physical Limitation.

 

I'm aware the +3DCV was because of size, I was trying to point out you can adapt the listed creature to fit your needs. It doesn't matter why a creature was written up with a certain ability or power it just matters if you think it's worth paying for.

 

Personally I think the DEX Steve gave cats is a cheap way to pay for what I would technically say were OCV bonuses for predatory instinct, DCV bonuses for size, and exceptional SPD. Increasing DEX just kills three birds with one stone.

 

I also would shave off the PS:Fetch he gave dogs since I think it's unnecessary to pay for since the concept of training is not the same thing as learning (this is ultimately a semantic arguement and I'm basing my opinion on my work writing programs to train the developmentally delayed humans)

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by slaughterj

The book says there is. And to my knowledge, the 0pt person does include some skills, whether they are everyman or obtained through characteristic-buydowns, I don't recall offhand, but regardless, it only costs 1pt to Summon a typical limited-skilled human.

 

 

 

I understand that, but assuming things are statted properly, they should balance out in cost-to-summon with the price of summoning the aforementioned human. I think of the typical 0pt human as the typical administrative staff person here in my office, lacking in any combat abilities, significant skills (can do their job, probably have some PS/KS related to hobbies and the world around them, etc.), etc., but still able to beat a cat's ass Even if you shave the cat (er...) cost down to 20 points, is a cat REALLY balanced yet? Sure it has stealth, etc., but still...

 

As I had mentioned in an earlier post, the cat writeup is pretty fragile; a human with baseline stats would indeed be able to kill a cat with a few solid blows. A lot of the points that the cat is given have nothing to do with combat power, but abilities that could have useful noncombat applications.

 

Let's just consider for a moment the most likely instance of a cat being Summoned; as a familiar for a wizard. Perhaps this is an unusually intelligent cat, or the wizard might have a spell to communicate with it (Mind Link), or see through its eyes (Clairsentience). What does the cat in the Bestiary bring to the table in these circumstances? Small size to get into and out of narrow openings, good climbing ability, stealthy movement, hides itself easily, exceptional senses... in other words, quite an effective spy. I could see an argument being made for the cat being worth its points in that case.

 

Aside from greater strength and clerical expertise, what does the average 0-point administrative assistant have that can match that?

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

As I had mentioned in an earlier post, the cat writeup is pretty fragile; a human with baseline stats would indeed be able to kill a cat with a few solid blows. A lot of the points that the cat is given have nothing to do with combat power, but abilities that could have useful noncombat applications.

 

Let's just consider for a moment the most likely instance of a cat being Summoned; as a familiar for a wizard. Perhaps this is an unusually intelligent cat, or the wizard might have a spell to communicate with it (Mind Link), or see through its eyes (Clairsentience). What does the cat in the Bestiary bring to the table in these circumstances? Small size to get into and out of narrow openings, good climbing ability, stealthy movement, hides itself easily, exceptional senses... in other words, quite an effective spy. I could see an argument being made for the cat being worth its points in that case.

 

Aside from greater strength and clerical expertise, what does the average 0-point administrative assistant have that can match that?

 

Well, the admin asst can type

 

It seems to me that limitations the creatures have, like limited manipulation and animal intelligence, etc. , are a relevant aspect that should be considered in the summoning cost, and also that if humans get everyman skills (thus, being "cheaper" to summon), then so should beasts. If the limited manipulation, animal intelligence, etc. are not taken into account, then why should I summon a cat - summon a fairy instead with the same ability to get into narrow openings, flight (beats climbing), stealthy movement, hides itself easily, and exceptional senses - all of which would cost the same for the fairy but now I have something which can pick up stuff, read stuff, report back at a human level, etc. for the same price (based on similar things bought for the cat, not a look at any fairy in the book price).

[Lord Liaden]

Ah, I see; part of the issue for you is, "Why shouldn't Limitations be factored into the Summoning cost?" Well, for my part I'd be concerned about the munchkin potential that that would open up. In my game experience creatures tend to be Summoned for fairly specific purposes: combat power, or some ability that they have that's useful for a particular task. If you start factoring in animal Disadvantages to lower the cost of Summon, it could be disturbingly cheap to bring in a creature only good for combat, but very good at combat.

 

I readily concede that not all creatures are created equal, even if they're created on the same Active Points. For me that's a minor discrepancy in most cases, more a quirk of the system than something to be concerned about. I'm one of those gamers who doesn't have a problem with small differences in point efficiency if they suit a concept; you could remove some of those Disadvantages from the writeups for animals in the Bestiary and have a more efficient design, but then they wouldn't be animals anymore.

 

Naturally YMMV.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Ah, I see; part of the issue for you is, "Why shouldn't Limitations be factored into the Summoning cost?" Well, for my part I'd be concerned about the munchkin potential that that would open up. In my game experience creatures tend to be Summoned for fairly specific purposes: combat power, or some ability that they have that's useful for a particular task. If you start factoring in animal Disadvantages to lower the cost of Summon, it could be disturbingly cheap to bring in a creature only good for combat, but very good at combat.

 

Well, those limitations were one of the things I mentioned in the original post to this thread, so yes, I consider it an issue for discussion on this subject

 

The advantage in avoiding munchkinism is that by using the bestiary creatures pretty much as is, it avoids players making majorly disadvantaged creatures that are abusive for a reduced summoning cost, since the beastiary creatures should be balanced from an objective standpoint. That's why I don't have much of a concern regarding bringing in the disadvantages.

[PhilFleischmann]

Well, my Bestiary just arrived. One additional thing I notice about cats and dogs is that cats are given the same intelligence as a "noteworthy human" (10), while dogs are given the same intelligence as an "average human" (8).

 

What? !

 

I know there are a lot of stupid humans running around, but the average one is much smarter than both dogs and cats. And in my experience, dogs are significantly smarter than cats. That's why they can be trained, and can learn things and can understand communications at a much more sophisticated level than cats. There are no seeing-eye cats, or guard cats, or drug/bomb-sniffing cats.

 

And Re: cat's DCV, I'd go ahead and give them a +3 DCV due to size, but I'd give them a base DEX of only 10 or 11. I haven't seen cats display any significant OCV. Sure, cats have stealth and breakfall, and they get bonuses to OCV for surprise (which is they way they usually hunt). But when I'm playing with a cat (when it can't sneak up on me), it isn't too hard to evade (and I'm not more than a 3 DCV human).

 

In summary, I'd say lower the DEX to "normal" 10-12 or so, and lower the INT to 5 or so (or maybe even less), and then you'd have a realistic cat.

[Lord Liaden]

Phil, I agree with you on lowering the cat's Dexterity, and the reasons for it. I also agree that a cat should be no more Intelligent than a dog. About those INT scores, though: the Bestiary points out that INT in HERO System refers to the character's ability to perceive, process and react to information, and animals need to be good at that in order to survive. It doesn't necessarily grant the ability to reason or think abstractly as humans do, though; that's reflected in the Animal Intelligence Physical Limitation that animals usually have (p. 10).

[Farkling]

And on the flip side of that...a trained dog reacts faster than a cat, within the realm his training applies to he will exceed the cat response. I have friends with some very friendly and lovable and well behaved dogs, but as far as it goes the cats ARE more observant, they react faster and process a shade more quickly. And so far as PER and INT rolls go...they have the same number. So what's the complaint that cats are slightly smarter? Are you a dog person?

 

My cat can catch bugs and lizards easily, both critters that easily evade dogs. And as to the DEX...my cat reacts faster and more quickly than I do, even if I am prepared and warned. That is not just raw DCV...and if you remove the DEX, then you need to grant the cat some levels with its claws...or it will never hit the eyes, tails, and wings it is so fond of...no targetting ability. And also it's ability to pull it's punches, which it uses when you play...it knows hurting you is a bad idea for its day.

 

Ability to be trained and learn tricks is NOT to be confused with intelligence. A horse or a congressional committe can be trained to perform some pretty complex tricks, but I still think the dog is a much smarter creature.

 

The cat is psychologically incapbable of following instructions and training...THAT is why those stats are less meaningful. If you Summon a cat, you can remove the pesky limitations and not need to lower any statistics.

 

Additionally, if you use the disadvantages as discounts, what about those creatures with negative costs? I can summon an infinite number of them? Or do I simply get the first 8 to 16 of themfor free, until the Summon begins to cost points?

 

I know, I know, it always costs one point...that's the game interpretation...but so is the write up.

[austenandrews]

Originally posted by slaughterj

The advantage in avoiding munchkinism is that by using the beastiary creatures pretty much as is, it avoids players making majorly disadvantaged creatures that are abusive for a reduced summoning cost, since the beastiary creatures should be balanced from an objective standpoint.

 

Yeah, I have problems in general with a player making up convenience creatures whole cloth to Summon. (Which is why suggestions of buildings missiles with Summon are repellent to me.) In general a Summoned critter ought to have some sort of existence outside the battle he's Summoned for. But that's my own take on it, of course.

 

-AA

[farik]

While trying to design a summoner magic system for Fantasy Hero I took a hard look at why a summon spell would summon a normal animal when he could summon an intelligent constructed creature (like a personal Imp or the aforementioned fairy.) I came to 2 realizations

 

1) First of all a consideration to keep in mind in the summoning cost is the fact that it has a small amount of mind control built in. In the cat example for instance a summoned cat will actually follow your instructions (assuming you have superior EGO) something a cat grabbed off the street (or even a pet) won't do.

 

2) A Summon that only summons creatures with animal intellect probably deserves a limitation since the character won't be able to rationalize with the creature or get it to do anything else unless they have mind control or really good animal handling skills.

 

Thoughts?

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by farik

While trying to design a summoner magic system for Fantasy Hero I took a hard look at why a summon spell would summon a normal animal when he could summon an intelligent constructed creature (like a personal Imp or the aforementioned fairy.) I came to 2 realizations

 

1) First of all a consideration to keep in mind in the summoning cost is the fact that it has a small amount of mind control built in. In the cat example for instance a summoned cat will actually follow your instructions (assuming you have superior EGO) something a cat grabbed off the street (or even a pet) won't do.

 

2) A Summon that only summons creatures with animal intellect probably deserves a limitation since the character won't be able to rationalize with the creature or get it to do anything else unless they have mind control or really good animal handling skills.

 

Thoughts?

 

Interesting idea in #2...