Continuing Issue with Summon / Beastiary Costs

[slaughterj]

While I have liked the change that creatures' size is a limitation rather than a power, which avoids the problem of summoning an ant costing dozens of points , I think more needs to be done regarding Summoning and Beasts points. (Summoning is something I don't mess with much, thus why this is coming up only now for me.) I'm in the process of making some summoning cantrips, so I was perusing the Bestiary for point costs, as well as reviewing the Summoning power, and got the following results:

 

Summon Average Person, 1pt (minimum) - because they don't cost anything

Summon Rat (Tiny Mammal), 3 pts - because they cost 14 pts

Summon Dog, 3 pts - because they cost 13 pts

Summon Cat, 15 pts?! - because they cost 73 pts?!

 

Just from viewing the above list, things are clearly out of wack! Initially I was going to make a summon rat, summon fish, and summon bird spell with a base cost of 5pts and not bother statting them out, but found the rat to be 14pts, thus summon should be 3pts, and decided now to go with that for little critters. But I'm going to be making more substantive summons as well, and am concerned about the pt values of various creatures - regardless of stats, I don't think a summon dog vs. summon cat spell should be 12pts different.

 

Anyone have any thoughts on dealing with this?

 

A couple of ideas I had:

1. Just like PCs, animals should get "Every Creature Skills", which include Stealth, Concealment (self), and Climbing (though a few will lack this), and maybe others, at no cost.

2. Have the Disadvantages reduce the cost for the Summon, i.e., only charge total cost after disadvantages. Note that this has the potential for abuse, but as long as Beastiary creatures or GM-made creatures are summoned, versus over-stacked disadvantaged PC-made beasts, this should be fine.

 

Side Rant: The creatures in the Bestiary should not have a base 75pts, plus disadvantages, because any of the cheap creatures end up not being "points balanced" in the book. For creatures over 75pts, they were balanced by including additional XP. But for those which are under 75pts, this just results in confusing math on the page.

[austenandrews]

One phenomenon you're seeing is that Steve Long is obviously a "cat person," not a "dog person." The dog writeups in the Bestiary are way out of whack (and the cat one might be, too, though I didn't examine it very carefully). I plan to add 10-15 STR to the various dogs right off the bat, and possibly some other improvements.

 

Then again this is Hero where agility is king, so it shouldn't be surprising that the cost of a cat would be relatively steep. Of course if you compare a house cat to a guard dog in combat, you'd think the more expensive animal would be obvious.

 

The problem with subtracting Disads from the total is that it makes Summon the same cost as an animal Follower, except that with Summon the creatures can be killed with relative impunity, whereas a Follower is considerably harder to replace. You might be able tweak the numbers to make them equivalent, though.

 

-AA

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by austenandrews

One phenomenon you're seeing is that Steve Long is obviously a "cat person," not a "dog person." The dog writeups in the Bestiary are way out of whack (and the cat one might be, too, though I didn't examine it very carefully). I plan to add 10-15 STR to the various dogs right off the bat, and possibly some other improvements.

 

Then again this is Hero where agility is king, so it shouldn't be surprising that the cost of a cat would be relatively steep. Of course if you compare a house cat to a guard dog in combat, you'd think the more expensive animal would be obvious.

 

The problem with subtracting Disads from the total is that it makes Summon the same cost as an animal Follower, except that with Summon the creatures can be killed with relative impunity, whereas a Follower is considerably harder to replace. You might be able tweak the numbers to make them equivalent, though.

 

-AA

 

Yeah, I know Steve is a "cat" person The general issue is still there though...

 

Thanks for the tip on the Animal Follower - I'll look at that to compare with Summon and see what comes of that, regarding the points' issues and replace-ability...

[PhilFleischmann]

Never mind comparing cats and dogs, what about cats and people!? Does the Bestiary really say that a cat is 73 points more powerful than a base human? I don't have my HSB yet, but if that's the kind of stuff I'm going to see, I already regret ordering it.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Does the Bestiary really say that a cat is 73 points more powerful than a base human? I don't have my HSB yet, but if that's the kind of stuff I'm going to see, I already regret ordering it.

That is not a fair statement or a fair comparison. Humans, by default, do not have some 54 points of skills such as Climbing. The base 0 of a Human is the starting point not the finishing point. The 73 points for a cat is the finished point.

[Lord Liaden]

I do agree that cats in the Bestiary seem to get an unfair edge compared to dogs, especially in Dexterity; but as far as "more powerful" goes that really depends on what you consider powerful. The average house cat has minimal Killing Attacks representing teeth and claws, but a lot of points go to DEX, extra DCV, enhanced senses and Skills, particularly Concealment and Stealth. The domestic cat is very low in Strength and quite fragile.

 

My personal feeling is that most of the abilities that a cat is given in the book are justifiable but exaggerated, but it would be quite easy to shave points to reduce them to levels comparable to those of other small animals written up, especially if you pick up the appropriate Hero Designer character pack.

 

And Phil, I hope you won't let this one aberration turn you off from the Bestiary - it really is an interesting and very useful book. Anyway, how many HERO gamers use a published character exactly as written?

[Ndreare]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Anyway, how many HERO gamers use a published character exactly as written?

 

8 but they all work for the company.

[Pteryx]

I don't think the cat stats are out of line... but then, I'm a cat person too. It's easy to think of stats for things you're deeply familiar with and enthusiastic about (heck, when I started statting out a favorite character of mine, I came up with 50-something points worth of skills alone). You guys are right, though, that the dog stats are ridiculous. Not to mention that you aren't provided with any dog modification options in the book at all when dogs vary a heck of a lot more than cats. Hopefully the next Bestiary that's written will have at least a quarter-page of dog options. -- Pteryx

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Pteryx

Not to mention that you aren't provided with any dog modification options in the book at all when dogs vary a heck of a lot more than cats. Hopefully the next Bestiary that's written will have at least a quarter-page of dog options. -- Pteryx

The book has a write up for 1 domestic cat and 3 types of domestic dogs. I think the dog information outweighs the cat already.

[Sociotard]

I agree that Dogs deserve higher stats than they were given, although, at 110 points, an (untrained) guard dog is much more expensive than a cat.

 

I would Also like to point out that all the critters in the bestiary are built on 75 base points + however many disadvantage points were appropriate + however many experience points are needed to make up the difference. Average and Noteworthy People are built on 0 base points, Skilled people on 25, and Competent on 50. So even the best person in FREd is theoretically weaker than the weakest critter. However, think of any "Incompetent Normal" you might know. Don't you think they could get taken down by a tomcat dedicated to that end? Wouldn't you like to see them get taken down by a tomcat? Okay then.

[Dust Raven]

I think it goes without saying Steve's a cat person. He made cats more intelligent and better looking than any dog.

 

Now, I'm a cat person too, but I think dogs a geting cut short in the Beastiary. For one, they have only 1" of Leaping, when cats have 2". Cats were given a DCV bonus and a Combat Level and dogs were given neither. Small animals should get a DCV bonus just due to size, and guard dogs should have at least one Combat Level. I've also seen dogs leap fences that cats have to climb (though these are only certain breeds).

[PhilFleischmann]

Originally posted by Monolith

That is not a fair statement or a fair comparison. Humans, by default, do not have some 54 points of skills such as Climbing. The base 0 of a Human is the starting point not the finishing point. The 73 points for a cat is the finished point.

I'm aware of that. But does anyone think that a cat has 54 points of skills more than an average human? This isn't a "finished" cat. This is a typical average domesticated cat. And the bestiary says it has 73 points more than a typical human. And as for climbing, why do cats get stuck up in trees? Obviously their Climbing skill is not always sufficient to climb back down. Perhaps they only have an 8- "everycat" roll on climbing.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

I'm aware of that. But does anyone think that a cat has 54 points of skills more than an average human? This isn't a "finished" cat. This

Once again, this is because humans have no predefined skills. Most of us, for example, would have PS: HERO System gaming 11-. That is 2 points spent for some 1,300 people on these message boards. Does that mean every human being has PS: HERO System gaming? No. It just means that each of us fills our zero point template in a different way.

 

I am not saying that the cat isn't overpriced, but the skills listed for the cat are skills that they have and we do not. Cats can climb, they can land on their feet from a fall, they can sneak up on prey, etc. Basic humans cannot climb, we must learn to do it. The same with landing on our feet, etc. The cat's basic physiology and instinct allows it to do things we cannot, and those things cost points in the HERO System.

 

And as for climbing, why do cats get stuck up in trees? Obviously their Climbing skill is not always sufficient to climb back down. Perhaps they only have an 8- "everycat" roll on climbing.

Actually cats don't get stuck up in trees. That is an urban legend sort of thing. Some cats, just like some humans, might have a fear of heights but in general if they can climb up, they can climb down.

[Farkling]

My cat has climbed up on top of the apartment building and back down with no problem. He also has never gotten stuck in any of the trees...

 

As to 1" leap versus 2" leap, I've seen cats make vertical jumps higher than my head, large dogs only appear to jump that well with a long running start. If the dogs could jump that well, they'd follow the cats up the trees.

[farik]

I had a dog who could climb (and I don't mean jump I mean climb) a vertical 6ft chain fence he could also turn doorknobs.

 

Consideringa how cats respond when being pulled off something wouldn't a limited form of clinging with an RSR be more consistent? Just a thought.

[Farkling]

farik? When was the McGuffin device passed along to you?

 

I had custody of one until about 1990...but haven't needed it since...

[farik]

It doesn't matter when one gets a McGuffin it simply matters when one has it (since evryone wants it).

[slaughterj]

Wow, this thread took a turn while I was gone on vacation

 

I'm looking for solutions to balancing the issues raised, any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

Originally posted by Monolith

That is not a fair statement or a fair comparison. Humans, by default, do not have some 54 points of skills such as Climbing. The base 0 of a Human is the starting point not the finishing point. The 73 points for a cat is the finished point.

 

By saying humans have 54 points of skills, are you referring to everyman skills? What are the ramifications of these points on the cost of summoning a human? I don't believe they are a factor, per reading the Summoning power. That's why I think creatures need "everycreature" skills to balance out the expense of followers / summonings of animals with humans. Further, you surely agree that a 73pt cat Summoning power is not worth 15 points on a character, yes?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by slaughterj

By saying humans have 54 points of skills, are you referring to everyman skills?

No, I am not saying that at all. Everyman skills are all 8- skills that cost the player nothing, unless he attempts to buy them up past the 8- roll. Which if a human could climb like a cat would mean 3 points, etc.

 

What I am saying is that there is not such thing as a 0 point human. Every human probably has between 20-50 points of skills, assuming you are attempting to summon a real person and not just a mindless drone.

 

What are the ramifications of these points on the cost of summoning a human? I don't believe they are a factor, per reading the Summoning power. That's why I think creatures need "everycreature" skills to balance out the expense of followers / summonings of animals with humans.

The HERO System does not work like that. It is a points-based system, which means anything and everything above the ordinary must be paid for with points. The fact of the matter is that the cat is small, and gets +3 DCV. If you want to summon a human the size of a cat, then they too would need to spend 15 points on the DCV.

 

The thing you are having problems with is that you do not believe that the cat should have those abilities. Well that is your call. If you want a cat with a 8- Climbing as an everyman skill for 0 points then give it to them. But a cat can climb 100 times better than a human so it would seem foolish to assume they had the same Skill Roll. You see what I am getting at here? If humans can Climb on an 8-, and we do it poorly, then cats need to be able to climb at better than an 8- roll, and to be able to do that they must spend points. And thus you are left with a cat who has 54 points of skills.

 

Further, you surely agree that a 73pt cat Summoning power is not worth 15 points on a character, yes?

Considering all the Limitations that might go on that spell the fact that you might end up paying 3-5 points for the ability to summon a cat does not seem unfair to me. And if this ability is in a Power Framework you are looking at 1 point. So either way it does not seen unfair to me.

 

Now I will agree that dogs should have been given more abilities to put them on par with cats, but the only things I would question on the cat are the roll on Concealment, the Hand-to-Hand Level, and the 18 DEX. Drop the Concealment down to 14-, get rid of the HTH Level, and drop the DEX to 15. There is some 15-20 points saved.

[farik]

regarding the cat I'd drop the 15pts of extra DCV I mean it's hard for a normal person to catch a cat but I think DCV 9 is a bit much.

 

Regarding animal write ups in general I'd reccomend using them as templates to make your summoned creatures if you don't think it's worth the listed points then shave off the points until they're the type of animal you want. The same way you shouldn't give points for limitations that don't limit don't pay for abilities you don't plan on using.

[Bartman]

Originally posted by farik

regarding the cat I'd drop the 15pts of extra DCV I mean it's hard for a normal person to catch a cat but I think DCV 9 is a bit much.

I'd have to agree. When I have had cats, catching them to take them to the vet wasn't a 5 or less level of difficulty. More like a 9 or less. And hitting them with a spray bottle to get them off furnature and such was a trivial task, 15 or less at least. And I can assure you that I am a 3 OCV individual. A 5-6 DCV for a normal cat is sufficent

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Monolith

What I am saying is that there is not such thing as a 0 point human.

 

The book says there is. And to my knowledge, the 0pt person does include some skills, whether they are everyman or obtained through characteristic-buydowns, I don't recall offhand, but regardless, it only costs 1pt to Summon a typical limited-skilled human.

 

Originally posted by Monolith

The HERO System does not work like that. It is a points-based system, which means anything and everything above the ordinary must be paid for with points.

 

I understand that, but assuming things are statted properly, they should balance out in cost-to-summon with the price of summoning the aforementioned human. I think of the typical 0pt human as the typical administrative staff person here in my office, lacking in any combat abilities, significant skills (can do their job, probably have some PS/KS related to hobbies and the world around them, etc.), etc., but still able to beat a cat's ass Even if you shave the cat (er...) cost down to 20 points, is a cat REALLY balanced yet? Sure it has stealth, etc., but still...

[Farkling]

But cats are predatorial combat monsters...

 

Combat Monsters are ALWAYS more expensive in HERO

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

What makes cats hard to catch is their extra movement and small size. If a cat has room to run & places to hide then they are hard to get.

 

I'm not sure that they deserve extra DVC levels.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Vanderbilt_Grad

I'm not sure that they deserve extra DVC levels.

The extra DCV levels are because of their size. Prior to 5E you would have been forced to buy several levels of Shrinking Always On to represent the cat's size. In 5E you just buy levels with DCV and take a Physical Limitation.