Simon

Well...first off, you were doing it wrong. Bold statement, I know....but it's backed up by Steve. You are perfectly entitled to do it wrong....it just means that you're running with your own rules, not the rules of the Hero System. If you insist on continuing to do it wrong, then we have already discussed several ways in which you can do exactly what you are looking for....in Hero Designer. These methods range from somewhat circuitous methods (that you yourself proposed) to very simple methods (such as purchasing a Custom Power and setting the value to negative). The options are yours....but you seem happier griping about it than actually doing anything. I'd say that the fact that HD allows you to implement your house rules (rules that are not accounted for in the Hero System itself) speaks pretty dang well of a program that was designed to implement the rules of the system. Thanks for the complement!

Still arguing...amazing... The original publication of FREd assumed that these rules were already known and did not need to be elaborated on. When it became clear that this was not the case, Steve answered the questions regarding these rules in the rules forum. When it became clear that a significant number of people were operating with false assumptions of what the rules regarding fractional SPD were, Steve put the clarified rules in the FAQ, where they remain to this day. The FAQ is every bit as "official" as the rulebook. As has been stated by others in this thread, there are many other RPG systems (in fact, to my knowledge _all_ systems) that follow this same procedure: elaboration and clarification of their rules in an online FAQ. DnD, which has been through MANY versions and revisions and has, in fact, been around longer than HERO has their own online FAQ in which they do pretty much the exact same thing.

Except, of course, for the statements of Steve Long, the Line Developer.....the guy that makes the rules.

They're listed in the Errata as an error. At least, the Senior Citizen is, which kinda extends to the Small Child example as well. If someone would like, they could even bring the Small Child error to Steve's attention and he'll update the Errata to include it.

I would do nothing differently at all. The entire point of HD, as commissioned by Hero Games, was to create a chargen which followed the rules of the Hero System. I didn't write the app for you. I wrote it for Hero Games. There are a large number of people who find the app to be extremely useful. It has, essentially, become the ultimate rules lawyer, which is exactly what it was intended to be. If you don't want to play by the rules of the Hero System, that is absolutely your perogative....as you said, no one is going to come breaking down your door and taking away your copy of FREd. But don't expect the official software which was designed to implement the rules with the "interpretation" given by the line developer (Steve Long) to adhere to your house rules. As much as possible, I've made it capable of circumventing some rules (allowing you to use your own house rules and still use the software), but the primary goal has always been on impementing the rules that Steve has created first and foremost and working in flexibility and house rules second.

You're making the incorrect assumption that the character's base SPD is set in stone. It is not. It changes as his DEX changes. The same way as any other Figured Characteristic. You have a character with 10 DEX and buy his base SPD to 3. This costs you 10 points. If you then buy +10 DEX, his SPD would go up to 4 (base SPD of 3, and you've purchased 1 level). You've still spent 10 points on SPD. If you decide that you don't like this, and you want him to only have a SPD of 3, you can opt to not buy that +1 level which you spent 10 points on. This leaves you with 20 DEX and 3 SPD. You've spent 30 points on the DEX and have not spent anything on SPD.

He does not. If he wants to have the +1 SPD with OIHID, then he pays 10 points for the SPD and then applies the Limitation. He then has 0 points spend on his SPD characteristic (vs. the 5 points that he spent previously) and will be spending 8 points on his SPD Power. Per Steve.

No. He paid 5 points initially. Then his base changed, making that 5 point expense meaningless, you recalculate the points spent on SPD when his DEX changes. He does not spend 5 points and then 7 points. He spends 7 points total.

Monolith, please read my responses to you above, you are not calculating things correctly at all. The character spends 7 points (total) to go from SPD 3.3 to 4.

Ahh...I get it: make stuff up when you're wrong. There is nothing in FREd which advocates (or suggests in any way) selling off partial SPD. The Characteristics as Powers section (page 92 of FREd) contains examples for "Super Steroid Pills" (STR and +1 SPD), "Presence Defense" (PRE), "Spell of Righteous Strength" (STR, and CON), a purchase of +35 STR with Modifiers, a purchase of 100 STR with Limitations which do not affect the Figured Characteristics, and a purchase of STR with OIHID. The only mention made of selling off SPD is the following: For example, if the character's DEX was purchased with a -1 Limitation, then any points gained by selling back the character's SPD would have to be subject to the same Limitation -- selling back one points of SPD would yield 10/(1+1)=5 points. That in no way contradicts anything that has been said. The SPD that is being sold back is a full point of SPD, not "fractional SPD" which cannot be sold back and is never suggested as being possible to sell back. Because this was unclear to some, a FAQ entry was made which very clearly states that it is not legal.

Rules include those rules in the FAQ. That's why it's there: to make things clear. The FAQ entries are extremely clear on this. Ipso facto, so are the rules. Q.E.D.

Agreed, they tend to be more trouble than they're worth. But, until the rules are changed to remove Figured Characteristics and just have them all act as primary characteristics (something that I can't see happening until the 6th Edition), we have to make do with the rules that we have....and those rules are extremely clear on this subject. I would argue that Charges needs to be changed just as badly, but that's a whole 'nother conversation ;-)

The FAQ exists to clarify rules in FREd that are misunderstood....or not understood clearly enough. It also elaborates on rules that may not be stated at all in FREd. Variations on rules and questions that may never have occurred to Steve when he was initially writing the book. The rullings that Steve makes in the FAQ are just as much a part of Hero System as the book itself. They exist to help people better understand the rules of the system. If you want, I believe that they keep a PDF copy of the FAQ posted, so you can easily download it and print it out. You can even staple it into the back of your copy of FREd, if that makes you feel better.

You're welcome to buy it however you want. The way I suggested is the way that I would expect one of my players to purchase it. If they came to me with your second option, I would tell them to stop being a munchkin and deal with it.....or I'd make their character's life a living hell until they learned their lesson. As for the third option, it is against the rules, so the points don't really matter. It is the same as saying that you'd save points if you only spent 3 points per level of Energy Blast rather than 5. You're technically correct, but you're not following the rules of the Hero System, which is what we're discussing.

First off, you are perfectly welcome to sell back SPD. It is completely within the rules for you to do so. If you have a 2.3 SPD and you sell back a level, you get 10 points back and end up at a 1 SPD. As for the source of the rule, I get the rule directly from Steve Long. The guy that WRITES the rules. The rule is made abundantly clear in the FAQ, since there are a number of people that have been operating under a misconception of what the rules regarding partial points of SPD were and were taking their misconceptions as cannon. This rule is not a new rule. It is not something that Steve created for 5th Edition. It has been around for a long time....it is just something which he found it necessary to clarify when folks started asking questions about it.

The only thing that I'd raise an eyebrow at would be the Ablative, though that's probably a good way to simulate the wall being chipped away by attacks which don't exceed its DEF....you'd just need to work with your GM to determine how much of the wall is whittled away each time. To answer the question: yes, you could have multiple ice walls up and then make it snow. Because the walls are Uncontrolled, they have no connection to the character once they are created....you can shift MP slots at will and the walls will remain in place.

Uncontrolled is generally used for the "activate the Power and forget about it" effect. Once activated, the Power is completely separate from the character. The character can be knocked out, killed, taken to Canada, or any number of other unpleasant things....the power will continue to function. Part of the Uncontrolled Modifier is defining a "reasonably common" circumstance which will deactivate the Power. In the case of an ice wall, I (personally) would have no problem whatsoever with the statement that it needs to be melted. Characters with Fire SFX Powers could melt the wall very quickly....others would simly wait for it to melt on its own. The only trick in there is the idea that the wall would disappear as soon as you changed MP slots.....this means that it is not entirely separated from the character. I think that it would be easiest to simply take this as part of the "reasonably common" way to turn off the Uncontrolled Power, but that's up to you...

No, it costs exactly what it is supposed to cost according to the rules of the system.

You continue to misunderstand. You cannot "buy up" your SPD to a fractional value. Fractional SPD only exists to give the player a benefit if they want to buy their SPD Characteristic up to the next whole level from its base. That's it. You cannot sell it off. You cannot buy fractional SPD as a Power. You cannot buy up your SPD to a fractional value.

Again, incorrect. It may help if you stopped looking for this to be difficult/broken and simply accepted the rule. I'll go through how to do this in HD, since that is likely going to be easiest for you to understand: On the characteristics tab: Purchase +2 DEX (giving you a 12 DEX Characteristic). This costs you 6 points. Do nothing with your SPD (leaving you at a 2 SPD Characteristic). On the Powers tab: Purchase +11 DEX, OIHID. For clarity, have it add into the secondary total. This costs you 26 points. Purchase +2 SPD, OIHID. For clarity, have it add into the secondary total. This costs you 16 points. You are left with a character that has: 12/23 DEX 2/5 SPD Conceptually, this matches what you are looking to do: outside of Hero ID, the character has 12 DEX and 2 SPD. In Hero ID, the character has 23 DEX and 5 SPD. He benefits from the boost to his DEX by gaining an extra point of SPD (he only bought 2 levels to get to 5 SPD).

As always, there are many ways you can do it. The way that comes to mind for me (offhand) would be to simply use a Force Wall. If you don't want to spend END to maintain the wall, then you can make it 0-END. If you want the wall to remain until it melts or you swith the MP slot around, you can make it Uncontrolled (with the condition to stop the power being that you either shift MP slots or simply melt the wall).

You do not see what I'm saying at all. DEX 15, base SPD 2.5 But it up to 3 as a characteristic for 5 character points. +8 DEX, OIHID. This now changes his BASE SPD to 3.3 (23 DEX total). If he wants to have a character with a SPD of 4, he spends 7 points TOTAL on his SPD to go from a 3.3 to a 4. If he wants to have a character with a SPD of 3, he does not spend anything (he gets back that initial 5 points that he spent, since it is no longer valid/needed) and remains at a SPD of 3. Some costs may help: DEX: 10 base, 15 as a Characteristic (15 points) SPD: 2.5 base, 3 as a Characteristic (5 points) Total: 20 points --------- DEX: 10 base, +5 as a Characteristic, +8 OIHID, 23 total (15+19=34 points) SPD: 3.3 base, 3 as a Characteristic (0 points) Total: 34 points ---------- DEX: 10 base, +5 as a Characteristic, +8 OIHID, 23 total (15+19=34 points) SPD: 3.3 base, 4 as a Characteristic (7 points) Total: 41 points

There are no "fractional points" of SPD when purchasing SPD as a POWER. In the example given above, the +1 SPD is being purchased without Modifiers and is bought as a Characteristic.

Incorrect. The problem was a basic misunderstanding of the way SPD and DEX relate. it does not matter what order the DEX is purchased, it always affects the base (starting) SPD. If he wants a character with a 3 SPD, he doesn't need to spend anything (and actually gets back the 5 points that he spent initially on the +1 SPD, since it is no longer necessary). If he wants a character with a 4 SPD, he just needs to spend the 7 points necessary to take his SPD up to 4 from 3.3 -- assuming he does not put any modifiers on his +1 SPD. The only time he would need to spend 10 points for that initial +1 SPD instead of 7 would be if he purchased the +1 SPD as a Power, in which case the "partial SPD" does not apply. Per Steve.

That is incorrect. The extra 8 DEX affects your base SPD. It doesn't matter what "order" you purchase the characteristics/powers in. To be clear: If you have a 15 DEX, this gives you a 2.5 base SPD. If you then buy +1 SPD as a characteristic, you are left with 3 SPD for 5 points. If you then buy +8 DEX, OIHID as a Power, you have a 3.3 base SPD and your choice of: 4 SPD for 7 points or 3 SPD for 0 points