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Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

Of course you had the same design flexibility, in a sense, but only at the cost of penalizing characters that didn't fit into a specific mold, in that they lost more than was fair. This is an unacceptable answer to those of us that want to make unusual character easy and balanced with everyone else. If that were the only thing that dumping Figured Characteristics were meant to fix, I'd view it as a baby-and-bath-water deal, but it does fix the problem.

 

But see Hugh's previous post: other forms of re-working would have been just as good for that. I do feel there are other benefits, though, it's just a matter of time to see if they are worth the cost.

How were unusual character's penalized unduly?

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

Ok, I lied about staying out, but clearly I'm not being direct enough. What general combat rules for using OCV defensively? All I know is that there are only two ways to use OCV defensively, I haven't seen anything anywhere that says you can't otherwise, it has just never come up since there is no other way to use it. Can you please give a page reference that would have to be changed?

There are only two options that allow a character to use OCV defensively. Those are the rules for using it. To you use OCV defensively you must Block (which covers martial manuevers with Block Element) or use Missile Deflection (which is basically a Block that can effect ranged attack).

All the current means* need to be used actively (performing a Phase ending Action) Currently there is no other way. AVACV may add an additional way to use Block passively (as in no phase ending action required) but it would be adding to the general rules on how to use OCV defensively.

*actually they're all the same thing just with different slightly different functions/abilities.

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

How is it changing the normal combat resolution process?

Normally to Block or Missile Deflect you must use an Action/Abort to Defense Action, you can't use it passively like DCV. If the Advantage can do away with the requirement then it could create a new exception to the general combat rules for using OCV defensively.

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

Of course you had the same design flexibility' date=' in a sense, but only at the cost of penalizing characters that didn't fit into a specific mold, in that they lost more than was fair.[/quote']

 

Punishing them in what sense? Again, I'm not saying the issue wasn't there but it wasn't something I ever ran into in play or noticed otherwise.

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

You already have the same design flexibility. If you wanted to make a character who was an "exception" to the general rule then buy some or all of the relevant characteristics with No Figured. At least I never ran into a character I couldn't build with Figured chars in place.

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

re: Figured Chars

I think at this point its just better to say they were a Feature to some, a Bug to others and the two sides aren't likely to meet eye to eye on it now anymore than earlier.

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

Even if it's there' date=' that's not necessarily the case. It would only [i']have[/i] to work against raw or total OCV at the point when the attack is thrown. The significant difference is that, if you had a Phase you could Abort to, you'd Abort to Martial Block, for example, instead of Martial Dodge. The defender still wouldn't necessarily make a roll, it could be rolled just like an OCV vs. DCV attack.

Yes I know that's why I said unless the Advantages changes the normal combat resolution process. I just think it seems like allot of trouble for what amounts to a sfx difference. "DCV", "Block", "Dodges", etc can represent allot of things in Hero. It's one of the things I like about the combat system.

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

Same as AE(hex).

At least in that case you increase your DCV overall (Dodge + any skill levels you invest) rather than Blocking which leaves you open for other attacks (perhaps more so as you might have to invest skill levels to OCV to block) and it really sucks if you don't have Missile Deflection because other wise you can't use a Block Maneuver against Ranged attacks.

Unless this hypothetical ability changes that (or even exists).

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

heck' date=' why not OCV vs. OCV? -- you can block/parry it but you can't dodge it.[/quote']

 

That would be odd and powerful since using you OCV to defend requires an Phase ending action of some kind (Block or Missile Deflection) unless the advantage would alter that. And could you do MOCV vs MOCV since there isn't (currently) a mental block maneuver?

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

Erm...you will have a starting value for the Formerly-Figured Characteristics (FFC) just like you do for Str, Dex, Int, etc. How will figuring out where to put the formerly-Figured Characteristics now differ from figuring out where to put the Formerly-Primary Characteristics (FPC)?

 

If you want to make your character stronger and hit harder, buy up your Str; it starts at 10; "average human" is 8.

 

If you want to make your character better at hitting things, buy up OCV; it starts at 3; "average human" is 3 (or maybe 2; we'll just have to see).

 

What exactly is the difference?

If you see the characters and the formerly figured characteristics as tied together then the calculations provide what an average persons with that base characteristic should have.

For example, a 20 Str individual typical gets a certain level of resistance to physical damage (PD and Stun) from having that level of Strength as Hero defines it. Any additional (or less) made them not "average" examples of a person with that level of Characteristic.

Hope that made some sense and helped.

Re: Alex Mercer of Protoype Video Game.

Retrocognition Only to read the experiences/memories of his targets with perhaps a Skill VPP or the optional Universal Skill from the Ultimate Skill with a limitation that can only duplicate skills of absorbed targets?

A weird idea; EDM UAA into "Consumed space" and a Continuous Transdimensional Telepathy to read memories/communicate and a Mind Control: "Use your skills to help me" That wouldn't really help with the physical skills though.

Re: character with wish granting powers

Honestly? If its not a player character or a combat ability I wouldn't worry about writing it up. It sounds like a plot device really. Just makes some notes on how it functions and run with that. If there's a possibility of a Player character being to affect it (say with an adjustment power) pick an "Active Point" value you feel is workable.

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

I don't see re-coupling to be that easy of an issue. Since the cost of characteristics have changed (due to decoupling) the point balance of characteristics will be thrown off when/if you attempt to recouple under 6E. I guess I could always keep the old point costs for characteristics. However, if I am going to recouple, keep the old point costs, keep COM, and keep CV based on DEX (or EGO for ECV), I am better off just sticking with 5ER and house ruling the few things I like about 6E so far.

Yeah, that's what I think it comes down to. Is it allot of work to "fix" 6th if yo don't like than to stay with 5th. Dropping Figs and derived CV isn't a minor change to reverse. It's going to effect things across the board (characteristic costs, cost of combat skill levels, starting point totals) If those aren't changes to a particular player then the rest of the package has to be very impressive to compensate.

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

I guess I just don't understand why people are leery of this WRT NNDs. Could someone let me know what about the wording of Steve's post led them to believe that the defenses available to AVADs that take "All or nothing" as a Limitation will be any more restricted than the defenses you can use for NNDs in the current rules? 'Cause I just don't get it.

To be fair you have a different perspective from allot of people in the thread if you were on the SETAC group. You've seen it for awhile longer, possibly in play or even developed part of it. The rest of us are seeing it for the first time and haven't actually used it or even fiddled with it yet. It's a totally new way of looking at it so there will be some adjustment time.

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD

Interesting stuff Similar to some house rule I had in place.

Re: [RPGnet] Let's Read the Big Blue Book

On a somewhat related tangent' date=' I find some of the current 3.5 vs. 4e edition wars amusing. How long has Hero been accused of being too hard? Now, the rallying point for 3.5 is that it is not dumbed down and allows more options.[/quote']

 

QFT

 

Even before that you'd get the same folks that would complain about Hero System's "calculus" and complexity rattling off formulas and jargon from their favorite game that Hero's mechanics look like a 2nd grade primer.

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

I'm not sure how many options will be presented in the main rulebooks. I think there'll be a few but there'll be more in the Advanced Player's Guide.

Not to put words in Heirax's mouth but I think he meant that the more rules are out there the more rules and options he has to pick and choose from overall. He can take stuff from 4th, 5th, 6th, House rules and stuff he picks up here and enjoys and combine to make his own unique FrankenHero so to speak. Which isn't a bad way to approach things.

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

I would point out that none of us have actually seen 6e. We've got a few disparate tidbits' date=' but until we see the new version both as a whole and in detail most of the discussion is speculative [churning up a tempest in the teapot']. I guess I'm just echoing GA's comment. Judge the system when it comes out, not the hyperbolic chaff on the boards. I dislike some of what I've heard. Other things have promise depending on implementation. But, I haven't taken it out for a test drive. Until then I can't form a substantive opinion.

As I've said I intend too. It's not the idea of 6th edition that bugs me it some of the attitude that's been displayed over it.

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

I feel what is effecting some here is the discussion on 6e more than 6e itself, and the going back and forth before we really get to experience it as a working whole, instead of the few focused parts we see. It's sort of like tasting a few ingredients of a dish, and fighting over it with other cooks before trying the finished meal. It's better just to go have an appetizer or a nice drink and shoot the breeze and wait for dinner to be served.

 

oh well...the downside of the internet, sneak peeks and such.

Personally, I'm looking for reasons to like it and to be excited about the previews we've gotten. I'd like to be excited rather than grimly determined to wait and see the entire thing. Unfortunately that has not occurred. Anything I've been even marginally excited about has been put to rest fairly quickly as either a misinterpretation of an announcement or something come up with whole cloth from assumed facts.

I keep being told I should have "faith" in Steve Long. I don't see why I have should have any more faith in him than I do in any other rpg writer that has some produced some material I liked in the past. I've disagreed with him strongly before and will in the future. The fact that he's writing 6th essentially exclusively on his own gives me no innate confidence it will be great nor has anything I've seen given me that impression.

But the thing is I am still asking questions. I have enough "faith" to not just walk at this point. My 5th books aren't going to burst into flames and I'm fine with them and my house rules. I can't speak for all of them but those still asking questions are generally those still on the fence at least among those unconvinced about 6th. The people that have made up their minds are mostly not participating in these threads any longer. Those that are, are, like myself, looking for reasons to like it and look forward to seeing more.

Some have even found a few reasons.

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

Oh, come on, complaining about the minor little bit of extra work caused by decoupling Figured Characteristics calls for a snark in my mind.

It doesn't matter if that extra work is 30 seconds (love your ability to predict just how long will be...), 30 minutes or 3 seconds. Its extra work that provides absolutely jack all benefit to me in a chargen system that's already pretty dang involved. It takes long enough as it is, there is enough to deal with as it is. Why should I be happy about required to do more for nothing? Please explain that. It's like someone adding a wind up key to my car ignition. It might only take a few seconds to twist but why? It does nothing but add time.

But if it makes people feel better, I will apologize.

Gee thanks for your half hearted forced "apology". I'm moved I'm really am. And I'm sorry you think someone have different preferences and desires for the game is worthy of condensation or that somehow this will make those on the fence about the game more interesting it taking a look at instead of dismissing it out of hand.

You know' date=' I've generally liked Hero Fans for over 25 years but the reaction of some of those fans to the 6th edition changes has almost succeeded in making me hate Hero fans in general.[/quote']

 

Why? Because they dare not to like what they've told automatically and voice opinions other than gushing admiration? I don't care that some people get gushy over a book they probably haven't seen yet what bugs me is when they start getting personal and insulting about it to people that disagree particularly when it seems most of that group is willing to give the whole a chance. It's petty and frankly, kind of fanboish.

 

Geesh, guys, it's just a game that you use to waste a few hours of time now and then -- it's not life and death. Just calm down.

 

I was calm. I asked a question, was asked one, answered and got mocked for it. Not for the first time and I'm not the only one.

 

Maybe you should consider taking some of your own advice here. Honestly, you've been coming across as some kind of overzealous fanatic, mocking and condescending to anyone that disagree with you on one turn than whining about Steve Long being picked on and not being treated like "one of us" on other while giving a pretty poor example how we treat "our own". It's great that you like the changes in 6th edition. Some people don't,. Steve Long is not a god of gaming, not a supergenius and he didn't write 6th by carving it into the side of a mountain with a finger of fire so please stop treating people that haven't been thrilled by what they've seen so far as heretics before the Church of Sixth. It's just a book written by a guy and so far one that hasn't impressed on me the need to blow lots of of money on it.

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

Maybe you're right. All I know is that I've been an enthusiastic fan of Hero System for over 20 yrs but this 6th edition crap has almost succeeded in strangling that enthusiasm to death in a matter of months.

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

That extra thirty seconds or so per character is going to be a killer.

Not cool, man, not cool at all.

Edit: It wasn't worth it.

.

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

Given that the limitation was originally described as the replacement for ECs' date=' and that Steve has never mentioned it as a replacement for Figured Cha, I doubt it. [/quote']

 

Yes, but Steve has said precious little and there's been allot of going on about how this Unified Power limitation "recouples" characteristics. Since we have no way of knowing who was on the Secret Council and who's just musing outloud I was wondering if I'd missed something or there might be more to it that has been revealed so far.

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

But, really, what's wrong with my solution of simply using the old formulae to specify the suggest campaign minimums for the old Figureds?

You'd still have to buy them up independently which requires an larger amount of points to spent to get the same character and a an additional step I don't currently need for every character as it stands.

Re: [RPGnet] Let's Read the Big Blue Book

Wow, 16 pages without a flame war erupting. I remember when Hero Threads on rpg.net were lucky to get 16 sentences without igniting.