Farkling

/QUOTE HUGH/ "Farkling, you only allow one framework. What's your experience? Forced to choose, do your players tend significantly towards MP or EC, or is it a pretty even split?" /ENDQUOTE/ I'm breaking some fledgling players of the "Multipower Attacks" framework with the "EC/Movement" Framework...that's how they were taught by the GM they deplaned from. They did NOT understand how their powers worked with the old GM. Original Writeups:: (3) EC's Weather, Divine Might, Mentatics (heavily limited for point saves) (1) Straight MA/SKills combo. Cyborg. (1) Straight Brick/MA combo. Mutant. (Player NEW to Champs) (1) "My favorite comic character is Rogue from the old cartoons. Mostly Invulnerable is a cool power" Complete Writeups:: (1) EC :: Weather. She was dead set on it and understands how it works completely. Power for Slow Growth was fine. "I'm a roleplayer...not a combat monster" (1) Multipower : Divine Might. (with the dreaded delayed activation). Blanket limit for the MP is the delayed activation. Prayer did not require ACTUAL gestures or incantations as originally designed. Just time for a short plea to the powers that be. Delayed Activation seemed a nice substitute. He has purchased (3) flavor powers now. Blessings (Aid), Divine Will (Healing), and A Transfrom to make holy ground... (1) Multipower : Psychic. Original draft had a great deal of clunky limitations and was actually two shoehorned EC's. No more than 3 of them were designed to work in conjunction. Pushing the Mind Scan outside the MP and dumping most of his powers into a MP was much more pleasant to him, and did not require the heaviliy limited powers. He is happily buying new powers every other game session. (1) Martial Arts/Skills combo. After original draft showed what powers/char's were cybernetic, I gave him limitation. Cybernetics are a common thread in 2020. Afterwards, he converted his gun and movement abilities to a Multipower of cybernetic ranged abilities and transportation. (1) Martial Arts/Brick combo. He is slowly buying what looks like an EC with his experience. Electrically based. (1) BRICK...Purchased flat and simple for a good roleplayer with NO head for game mechanics. 60 STR, 50 CON, Resistant Defenses exeeding the Campaign limits slightly, 3d6 Luck, X-Ray vision, Professional gambler and amateur linguist. So far she's been THE vibrant character and gotten XP bonuses from the GROUP. She very much understands the world of cardboard and styrofoam analogy. Is that answer complete enough Hugh? The (6) SuperSpies in the other game cannot have frameworks (though one or two may grow into them)... If they DID...I would have two Multi's and an EC...possibly a third Multi, possibly not.

Bah. It's experience. GENOCIDE power suppressors, power drains, transforms. Elemental Controls with Boosters from element specific (limited) aids and absorbtions. Elemental Controls with Drains and Suppresses that are element specific. DEMON and their magical power strippers and tranfer spells. I dabble in the adjustment area a lot. And I had the book open on the desk when Hugh posted. I couldn't remember Absorbtion EVER mentioning reduction of BODY damage...so I looked it up.

Oh damn! That softie Hugh is right !! Absorbtion is an adjustment power, and it says right here on p74, second column:: "the effect of any Adjustment Power which afects Defense Powers, PD, ED, or the like (increase or decrease) is halved." Hugh is right. ewwww. The example still works. Half of 30 is 15...which still absorbs the entire attack at the rate lised.

Absorbtion doesn't actually "absorb" the BODY points. Take a look at the last paragraph in column one, pg 88. Specifically, "the attack applies normally against the character's defenses after he has calculated his absorbtion" The key word is "calculated" Absorbtion provides NO defenses. It does NOT reduce the BODY damage. Link a Force Field, or Armor, or PD/ED construct for that. (-1/2, only to absorbtion level) The Absorbtion dice are to determine how many power points can be stolen from the attack...not how much BODY it is reduced by. By the book, if the Absorbed points go to defenses, they do not apply to the defenses until AFTER the damage is applied. This is contrary to dsimon's phrasing, but not his example. /EDIT/ I've got a guy with 10d6 Absorption versus Physical Damage. The Absorption goes to his 20 PD. Combat begins. He's hit by a punch, taking 12d6 damage. The roll is average and he takes 42 STUN and 12 BODY. He takes 22 STUN from the attack. He rolls 30 on his Absorbtion dice. Absorption gives him +12 PD now. Next time he's hit by the same attack, he takes 10 STUN, and his PD goes up another 12 points. He's now at a respectable 44 PD. After only 2 hits. Third hit does the same damage. He no longer takes any STUN from the attack (he shrugs off the attack) and his PD is now at a whopping 56. This will continue until he maxes out his Absorption (+60 PD for a total of 80 PD). /ENDEDIT/ And...he could buy something like 5d6 Absorbtion and boost the MAX to 75 for the same price. Making him slower to grow, but even more terrifying. Imagine a PD of 95...Terminal Velocity might not even faze you.

I think it basically boils down to Gary being unhappy with the "unacceptable" point saving offered by the EC. Multi-guy can buy anything in the book as a new power, and EC guy is limited both by 3-4 times cost AND shoehorn into EC...however, Gary consistently ignores that argument in favor of his chosen method. Note that his 1/4 limitation nerf of the EC basically will allow me to cram all sorts of powers into it...since there is now no "themed" concept behind it. AND I can apply it directly to my enhanced senses and skill levels and life support and ... Doesn't particularly make a difference to me if they get drained, after all, when my powers get drained they'll be pretty much useless. BUT...the 1/4 nerf kinda takes the heart out of design and building. May as well go wtih power armor, or choose not to play in Gary's games. On a side note, in my worlds well thought out applications of real world physics to EC's have effect too. Lead versus the Radiation, Asbestos versus the Flame, heat/fire vs water effects...

Drain BODY - BOECV will mess objects up quite nicely, won't it? Would characters take STUN = to Drained BODY ?? I can't find a specification. It has a different flavor than the multiply stacked RKA construct...and mimics the psychic necessity of concentrating on the object until it is destroyed...

/QUOTE/ "What's to stop the EC guy from buying an attack MP and leaving his def/movement/special powers in the EC?" /ENDQUOTE/ My house rule, which I believe YOU referred to as an "arbitrary ban" (though not ins so many words).

/QUOTE/ " Say, out of curiosity, where do you stand on the "power in a framework boosting a power outside the framework" debate?" /ENDQUOTE It's allowed by the rules...though the implication is it should be a different power. I would allow the Pulsar construct up to a certain level of additional dice...probably even over the active point cap. No linked limitation, and only working in conjunction WITH that slot. The limitation on the dice MAKES it a different power by definition. The feel would only be right if it the outside power is "smaller" than the slot. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Agent X Hey, if that's the way you guys like to play that's fine. You posted your rationale and I absolutely disagree with it. BTW, when people bring up the X-Men to justify a certain view of character construction they necessarily are leaving a few characters out. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Which characters? Speak up...let's see the examples. You are not allowed to use any characters created by Rob Liefeld as your source material. They pretty much ARE all designed with multiple frameworks, and probably even frameworks within frameworks if we analyzed them. /QUOTE/ " You see characters in the book with 1 power attacks such as Cyclops all the time" /ENDQUOTE/ Anyone who doesn't believe Cyclops has a Multipower hasn't seen a lot of him in the comics. Of course, I have heard that they changed the flexibility of his powers in recent years... I prefer purchasing gmaes and Hero books to comix...I can't budget both.

And for the record...the EC - Light Powers with Regeneration in the EC ?? No. Power Transfer - Yes. Drain linked Aid - Yes. Drain linked Healing - Yes. Absorbtion - Yes. Desolid linked Regeneration in one slot - Maybe. Flat purchase? I don't think so, since the offhand explanation seems to imply that you ARE Desolid, and possibly immobile. But that's just in my game. Your GM may have a different view of PsuedoScience than I do.

/QUOTE/ "Let's reason to effect shall we? I want to design a character with electrical powers who can fly, has a force field, a damage shield, and has a variety of electrical attacks. Hmmm, I know! I'll build a character that has an electrical elemental control with flight, force field, and a damage shield in it. For my attacks I'll buy a multipower with about 6 different slots." /ENDQUOTE/ Alright...now tell me this Fibber McGee...why are your Defenses and Movements subject to mass electrical failure (Drain/Transfer) and your Energy Blasts aren't? Because of energy levels? Skill? Raw Power? Metagaming? /QUOTE/ Now, I can have my movement, force field, and damage shield going just like in the comic books and I can still attack... just like in the comic books. /ENDQUOTE/ Yes...just like your well experienced, well trained, highly established comic book heroes... ever read any comics involving origin stories or initial formations of teams? Yes, I MIGHT allow multiple frameworks if I was forming the Justice League...but not the X-Men. My players are all about growth of characters...so we start low. Probably a matter of personal taste...we wouldn't start a DnD game with 20th level characters, or a Mage game with Archmages. If we were going to start with well established heroes who needed multiple frameworks...we'd be playing a Galactic Legion of SuperHeroes style game. We aren't, and only one player had an interest in that... /QUOTE/ "Honestly, your ban seems fairly arbitrary to me. I suppose you would make many published characters illegal in your game." /ENDQUOTE/ Yep that's it...a BAN with no room for flexibility at all. Hugh will be the first to testify I am a close minded bastard. A character who DID show up with multiple frameworks (Attack Mpower-Movement/Defense EC) all stemming from the SAME special effects would have the -0 limit stacked on for "drained as EC"... now, if that same character shows with an EC giving inherent powers and offensive powers from a source OTHER than the same EC effects, we might work it out. As has been stated previously...in case you missed it...I DON'T buy the Universe supplements (in part) BECAUSE they use those constructs, and because the universe is lightly corny to my gaming group. Guess that means we are closer to high powered Dark Champions in your book. I do however have an interest in the Agency books...those are always useful. When does GENOCIDE come out? I am updapting PSI to use in both the SPies and Supers game.

/QUOTE/ The most efficient character designs in my experience are the brick with 10 pts of martial arts, and the person with multipower or vpp attacks and EC movements and defenses. /ENDQUOTE/ Yeah...the 10pt MA brick is efficient. I'm still working on counteractions for that. Meanwhile, the evil bricks are getting M.A. packages too. Today's GM Question for input:: Just what CAN'T Martial Escape STR be used against? As to the attack Mpower and EC/VPP Move/Defend ... That is pure metagaming in my mind, even IF the "Implementors" do it. They are violating the spirit of their own rules...but it says in the back of the book this is acceptable, so I have no ground to stand on over it. EC Defense Powers or EC: Movement is expressly discouraged in the system explanations...so dressing it up and calling it EC::MegaPortation isn't going to trick me. I want a full suite of powers in the EC. Three is the minimum, five is preferred. You want the flexibilty of a Multipower, then buy an Attack in the EC and put Variable Advantage on it. In play, this will let MPower Guy retain some higher powered atack than EC Guy...but EC guy will have an attack or two equivalent or better than MPower guy. It's waaay more honest in my eyes than the Attack Multipower+EC/VPP Defense/Move point-whoring.

Whoever told me I scared the new guy with my "Little Bunny Frou Frou attack" was apparently right. My apologies. This is not as intimidating as it looks. My niece understands it...well...she understands the important parts anyway...

/QUOTE/ A 60 pt EC with 5 slots could use 300 pts at one time. /ENDQUOTE/ Show me an example of that which would be allowed in a game with AP caps. /QUOTE/ Second of all, your price structure is completely out of whack. 240 pts would give you either a 48d6 EB or a 32d6 EB at 0 end which is far superior to 5 separate 60 pt attacks. Therefore the value of 5 separate attacks is worth less than 240 pts. /ENDQUOTE/ And how is that relevant to the argument in a game with AP caps? /QUOTE/ At 90 pts, you can get a 18d6 EB which is roughly as valuable as the choice of a 12d6 eb, 4d6 rka, 8d6 explosion EB, 12d6 flash, or 6d6 entangle. At least the value of the 18d6 eb is in the same ballpark with the multipower, unlike the 48d6 or 32d6 0 end. /ENDQUOTE/ At 120 Points I can purchase the 12d6 EB with a +1/2 Variable Advantage...and for another 120 Points I can do the same with a 4d6 RKA....and the "48d6 or 32d6 0 end" is still wildly more powerful. You cannot argue "fairness" and "equal value" for points within the system and with the same breath use examples that violate the point caps we picture on the characters. That's a spurious argument. I fully admit that the 5 power (60) AP EC is more flexible and more bang for the buck than the 60d6 EB I could buy with the same points. But if the game allows a 60d6 EB, why the hell would I buy a 60 AP EC except for flavor powers? And for flavor powers I think PC's deserve a break.

/QUOTE/ In my experience, most characters are either characteristic heavy, or built with attack multipower or vpp and EC movement and defense. I'd be interested in what percentage of characters in your campaign have either a EC or are characteristic heavy. In the last campaign I was in, every character was one or the other. /ENDQUOTE/ Let's see.. The Weatherwitch is an EC, Crushbone is a characteristic heavy brick/ma hybrid, buying absorbtion and an EB as XP's accumulate. Wolf is a skill-based cyborg...hmmm...ma/EB hybrid. Characteristics/Multipower. Cory is a characteristic heavy straight up brick. 50 CON, 100 END, 60 STR...X-ray vision. Wheels is a Multipower Mentalist (Computers and People) The ArchAngel Michael is currently a Multipower...he may be swapped for a Divine VPP after the player reads those rules. But as that old softie Hugh is aware...I am personally and violently against constructs which "conveniently" place all the attack powers in one framework, and movment/defense in another framework. I send people back to the drawing boards for that. I prefer characters with room for conceptual growth. Now...mechanically speaking...the Weatherwitch has spent points to buy off limits on her EC...and is aware she will need to save points "forever!" to buy a new slot...the Multipower players have bough a couple new powers already (one bought THREE flavor powers...no combat use whatsoever...I'm so proud!) ... Cory bought some small powers, Crushbone is buying a power, and has bought some skills. The EC player has a disadvantage the others don't....broadening her power base is more difficult...as she put it "lots of time and practice" I repeat...there is a down side in the point savings for the EC if used for full level powers. That's why I disapprove of movement/defense EC's stacked with attack multipowers.

Heh...sounds like a variant on Shane Gooseman's bio-defenses from the old Galaxy Rangers.

It's a completely valid power construct Mags... He wants the ability to spread for multiple targets too...you can't use CSL's for that without including Rapid Fire and a lenient GM (for over 2-3 targets). Now here's a rules question...if you "spread" a single Hex Area Effect, do you hit another complete Hex with it? Can you spread an Area Effect attack?

Then allow me to comment on "feel" of the system also. My biggest problem with the d20 system is lack of control of character growth, and currently in our pickup game I suffer for it. My character has levels in three or four different classes so he can be a talented generalist and have a decent skill base. Overall...the character is weaker in combat than all but the magician, who is completely un-combat oriented. However skill usage and good stories in DnD (and most d20) is NOT what the system gives experience for...it gives XP's for killing monsters (they have a rating for every critter in their book, don't they?). We tend to play a little differently from our HERO influence, and XP DOES come from other sources. The biggest complaint the two steady HERO players have is that level increases arbitrarily DICTATE how certain skills increase (saves, to hit rolls, hit points to name a few). I much prefer the HERO method of "have 3 XP" ... I can put them anywhere I like, and concentrate on what I want to concentrate on. I can buy another hit point or two, increase a save slightly, buy skill levels, save them so I can buy a better attack power, whatever. There is no arbitrary "level" stricture on how my abilities increase. And as a complementary observations...one of the fellows in my long running game group is a 15 year veteran of DnD in all its incarnations. He has little desire to play superhero games, but is fascinated by the "here's your XP's" and the ability to spend them on whatever, wherever he wants. He liked it in White Wolf, and likes it in the SuperSpies HERO game we are currently playing. I also much prefer the bell curve of 3d6...I hate the flat 5% chance of failure, 5% chance of automatic success of the D20 system. I like the fact that a minor penalty (-3) to a skill roll means far less to an expert than it does to the practiced or the untrained. It also means that a penalty (or DC) can have a smaller range for penalties, as opposed to the typical 10, 15, 20, 30 of the d20 systems. That's my 2 cents. Your Mileage May Vary

Um, Hugh? "[Regardless, that bat's not gonna be good for a lot of 50 STR hits whatever system you use, and I'd rather just let dramatic sense take over and say it broke than spend time rolling damage against a bat)." You don't need to roll anything....you have the BODY total from the attack they just did.... And for weapons....hmmm....maybe half damage would be more appropriate. I run Supers games, and rarely have weapons in use by players that they did not buy with their own points. Weapons of circumstance are "real objects" in my world. I don't apply the rule to Foci the character is using, unless someone is actively TRYING to break it. If they paid points it can do whatever it is designed to do. It gets the -0 "comic book physics apply" limitation.

I'm thinking Shrike. I think my psych breakdown is that I picture an Area Effect as hitting the whole target...I will continue to ponder. And as a side note...a common defensive ship option involving DCV levels does exist in science fiction. Robotech. Point Defense systems could be either DCV levels or Missile Deflection...

I dabble in DnD...we run it as a pickup game when I can't GM anymore...and I tried D20 MnM....I was unimpressed. Feats are between 10 and 30 Active Points as far as I can see. "Levelling": as you put it, for radically changing a power is an Active Point question... Games earn from 2-5 Active Points per session when I GM. At a 60-75 AP limit on my game, (standard superheroes) a radical change is doable with 20-40 AP, 60 AP for a brand new off the rack top of the line power. At the Heroic (DnD) Level, this is amplified. Power can shift radically with 5-20 AP Is that more what you are asking?

There is another balancing issue missing here. EC's have a linked stack of special effects...that are (in my mind) supposed to be fairly obvious. /QUOTE:: KDansky:: how should someone fly using fire (fantastic four)? Why is it cheaper to buy EB (ice) + Force Wall (ice-wall) + flying (ice-trail) than EB (shooting rays from eyes) + Force Wall (telekinetic wall) + flight (wings) ? These are the same powers and they have no real disadvantage compared to the rest, yet they are about 30%-50% cheaper. Seems to me like every second villain/thug should have a drain/transfer/suppress then. /ENDQUOTE Why is character A cheaper? Look at those powers. GENOCIDE has to show up with ONE set of gear that will pretty much handle all of it. The agents pick out some off the rack low temperature gear, some heat projectors, maybe some sonics for those rigid ice walls... FireMaster will throw as much raw flame around as possible, and that 20d6 Dispel versus Ice/Water Powers is fantastically useful. IceGuy is imprisoned in a cell with sunlamps. EC's lend themselves to a theme. Themes are perceivable, and the theme SHOULD extend to the Disadvantages also. Now DemonWing there, with his eye beams and wings and TK wall...he's a strange duck that the villains won't be prepped for after one or two encounters/sightings. DemonWing has a decidedly odd set of powers requiring analysis, observation, and experimentation to deal with. There's much more going on here than "Character A unfairly got cheaper powers than me", which seems to be the common theme in the EC arguments I keep reading. And for the record...Bats SHOULD be written up on a VPP or a MP (IMHO)...he rarely uses multiple gadgets simultaneously, and the MP is cheaper than the EC in the long run...and easier to add powers to...which is the whole point of Bats. The EC player is going to be forced to cough up 7-30 points in an standard game to buy a new power (in framework). An investment of at LEAST two adventures. The MP player can typically get one for 3-6 points...one power per adventure. Another factor in the balance of the EC. YMMV

Hey Hugh...you mean you don't apply the BODY damage to the bat? Real world objects always take damage from being used to beat on things in my campaign. Said baseball bat would be good for one hit...the BODY damage from the force of the blow would turn it into splinters. (or shards if it was a metal bat)

The one I have allowed is a Multipower and it works fairly well... I may need to pick up the database to see how they constructed some of these wacky powrs...

Devils Advocacy But if my ship occupies 50 Hexes, how is a single Hex Area Effect an Area Effect attack against it?

Well...it IS becoming widely known that Hugh has played HERO for quite some time...and I have played it oh...nearly as long. Hugh is a softie, for sure...very oriented towards his players and campaign limits. I am not so understanding oif my players, and lift campaign limits as the game progresses...but overall I think Hugh is pretty much a softie. He nitpicks too, but it makes him a valuable opponent in debates. I THINK what you are saying is that if Zapper purchased +3d6 OVER AND ABOVE his 15d6 EB, it gets no limitation. I agree with you. Any player buying points over the Active Point limit for my campaign is trying to slip one by me...and won't get a point break...and usually won't get the power either. Hugh on the other hand will look at it and say "this is 90 AP, that's outside the campaign limits. Rebuild it. If you want bonuses to hit with your 15d6, buy skill levels." I think it is a limitation...especially where AP caps are in play. Judging by Hugh's posts he HAS AP caps in play...so it IS a limitation. IF you can only buy a 75 AP power in Hugh's world, consider this... Blaster has purchased a 15d6 EB for 75 points. If confronted with agents, he can spread for less damage and more targets. If confronted with a martial artist, he can spread to hit. If confronted by Grond, he cuts loose at 15d6, and runs if necessary. Zapper has purchased a 12d6 EB with +3d6 for spread only. If cofronted with agents, he can spread for less damage and more targets more targets, but if he's spreading for just one hex or two, his power is less useful than Blaster. If confronted by a martial artist, he has the same options as Blaster, except he cannot do more than 12d6...and against Grond...well....Zapper can NOT do more than 12d6. Grond very well may squash him. Thus Hugh figures a limitation, and that's where all the nit-picking is coming from. By the way Hugh, I am still weighing in at -1.