Damon_Dusk

Well, I've finally finished my shadowrun conversion and it includes: Bioware Cyberware Equipment Item List (with availability rules and legality codes) Magic (with metamagic) Rigging Rules (character creation and special skills) The Matrix Vehicles Weapons Any of those interested, send an email to damondusk@cox.net and I'll send the gigantic .zip file over (about 1/2 Meg of Word .Docs).

Hey badger3k, that's the Shadowrun system, which is basically the basis for what I've tried to work up here, albeit a little differently. The 3rd Edition uses the same initiative system that I've put down without that latest modification, in that all characters get 1 action in turns, then faster characters get their actions last. In truth, I've tried to simplify that system and the Hero Speed Chart all at once.

Doc Democracy said: I guess to me, in effect this isn't much different than the system I proposed, except you're still using the Speed chart. The main change is that instead of giving the faster characters actions at the end of the turn, you're allowing them to use them somewhere between rounds. In some respects that could alleviate the predictability of "back loading" DCV for slower characters or OCV for faster characters. In truth, I like the idea in how it affects my "Round-Based Initiative System", and I think I might incorporate it to allow for more unpredictability and flexibility for faster characters. And it goes a little something like this: - The base number of rounds in a turn are determined by the slowest SPD of all characters in the combat. Faster characters can insert their extra actions at the end of any round, but only 1 action each (initiative is determined by effective DEX as usual).

I'm not so worried about realism as I am about making the combat faster, yet still having a reason to have "fast" characters (i.e. not completely getting rid of the SPD characteristic as suggested in FREd). But I also don't necessarily need the distinction of 12 different Speeds (I run mostly heroic-level games). I'll rewrite more clearly what I wrote above: - Combat is based on a 12 Second (Segment) Turn. - Characters determine their Speed normally. - The turn begins with the character with the highest effective DEX (Initiative) taking one action (or holding), then going to the character with the next highest Initiative, and so on until all participating combatants have taken 1 action. This sequence of actions is called a Round. - Another Round is begun if any characters have a Speed of 2 or more and is resolved in the order above. - Rounds continue until characters have taken as many actions equal to their Speed. - When all characters have used all of their actions, a new Turn is begun and the sequence starts over. - At the End of every Turn, each character takes a free Post-12 Recovery. - Characters holding actions can only have 1 held action at a time and any actions they might have taken during a Round are lost in place of the held action. I'm looking at all aspects of my own speed suggestion and considering implementing it in my next campaign. Hoping some of you out there can point out any flaws (besides it not following the Speed Chart) that I might have missed. So far what I see is... 1.) How do I deal with Haymakers and maneuvers that are +1 Segment to complete? Suggestion: Ruling that it happens on the characters effective DEX in the next Round, and s/he automatically goes last in that round (potentially gives the character a chance to go twice in a row). Those who want a bit of randomness to their combat order can take my above suggestion and add a die roll (1, 2, or 3d6?) to the character's effective DEX score to determine when combatants go in the Turn. If they want to get really wild, they can say a critical roll (6, 12, or 18) allows the character an extra action that turn. Just throwing out ideas here... Edit: The above method of dealing with Speed could also be used in a standard 12 Segment Turn, and probably works out better that way, so I changed the default to account for this. It was originally a 6 Segment Turn.

I almost hate to jump into this discussion, but another thought about SPD (and keep in mind that I don't necessarily dislike the Speed Chart)... Do away with the speed chart altogether and assume all characters get 1 "action" every 6 second Round by default or a number of actions equal to their DEX/10 (minimum of 1). This is pretty much as standard. They can buy their speed up +1 SPD for 20 points. But SPD in combat is handled differently. In each round, everyone gets 1 action according to their DEX + Lightning Reflexes + whatever else. Characters with higher speed will get more actions after all characters have gotten their first actions. So, two characters with SPD 4 and SPD 5 will get 4 Actions "traded off" according to their DEX values, then the faster character will get one more after the other character is finished for the round. What to do about the Post-12 Recovery, though...Every other round maybe? It could be done with a 12 Second Round using the standard rules for buying and determining Speed as well, and it wouldn't cause troubles with the Post-Segment 12 Recovery. It's just with 12 full Phases, you'll have a lot more opportunity for slower characters to be finished with their actions and a really fast character getting a whole bunch of attacks afterward...which, in truth, isn't that much different than it is already. And keep in mind characters can still hold actions, etc. While this system doesn't do away with any metagame tactics in the Speed Chart, it simplifies things.

Well, even though I don't have a lot of posts to my name, I for one am interested in this thread as well as many others. I wouldn't worry about one person out of the many who have posted here and who are interested in this discussion. I'm getting a lot of good ideas from this thread for when I work on my own magic system, so keep 'em coming!

Well, how would you propose a "heroic-level" fantasy magic system where wizards can learn unlimited numbers of spells yet still be balanced? Would you throw a bunch of limitations on a Multipower and let the points balance it out? The problems I have with Multipower as magic is this: Why would you ever have 2 spells that use the same base power in a multipower? For example, 2 Invisibility spells: One vs. Normal Sight, One vs. Normal Hearing (both viable spells). Why would you pay points for 2 Invsibility spells separately when you could just pay points for one? Especially when the AP cost is only 5 points difference between the two. In a VPP, you're not paying points for the spells, they're free, so 2 Invisibility spells is perfectly reasonable. Also, applying Gestures, Incantations, etc. to the whole MP actively prevents you from learning 1 spell that can be cast silently or without movement. I'm sure that a lot of things depend on the style of magic that you're looking for, but I guess I'm looking for the "typical" wizard style of magic, and from what I see, the VPP is the closest legal system to that.

It's been massively updated since that one on the link, so it's probably for the best. I sent 9 .docs in a .zip (about 409 Kb). Let me know what you think.

Air-ships were a prominent part of the fantasy world in the game EarthDawn (which was the ancient fantasy counterpart to Shadowrun) by FASA. If I remember correctly, these airships were designed just like ships at sea, but each was a unique magical artifact, and the knowledge of creating them was lost during the "time of horrors". I don't remember the specifics of the airships, but they had "classes" (called adepts in that game system) that were built around the whole concept of the airship (Sky Raider was one...can't remember the other). EarthDawn was always an interesting setting for fantasy to me, but the system (I only played 1st Edition) had some issues. I'd be curious to see someone convert it to Hero.

no file...

Well, another thing to consider is how historically accurate you want your fantasy game to be. If it's historically accurate, then the suggestions above are certainly the best way to go. But if it's completely fantasy, there's no reason not to say that this world developed martial arts styles and disciplines. In my world, there are many origins of different martial arts styles. Some developed like that of the asian martial arts, unarmored and focusing on unarmed combat. Others are very representative of the mentality of the practitioner. Heavily armored warriors focus on using their armor to push, ram, and bully their opponent, relying on their armor for defense, rather than agility. In another style, developed by assassins, their abilities are focused on surprise and the attempt at an "instant kill". In a pure fantasy world, there really isn't anything to stop you from saying that structuralized combat didn't develop for one reason or another. I'm all for martial arts in fantasy. It adds color and more variations for the standard warrior and can differentiate one fighter type character from the next.

Well the points would be the easy part really. What do you want the sword to do that is so powerful? After you figure that out, just write up the powers that you want to associate with the sword with standard advantages and limitations for any other magical weapon. Once you're done with that, then I would refer you to the suggestions in FH about Intelligent and Self-Willed items (p. 279). The parts about it unsheathing for certain people, etc. can easily be bought as Disadvantages. Such as: Psych Lim: Only uses powers for those it deems worthy (very common, total); Distinctive Features: Sword of the High King (Concealable, Extreme Reaction). Shouldn't be too hard from there.

With my fantasy magic system, I didn't really need to worry about wizards wearing armor unless it was some sort of character concept. Since wizards had access to Force Fields and other defensive powers, why would a wizard want to burden himself with becoming strong and lugging around 40 kg of armor all the time. He can just spend END and turn on his Force Field. Granted, if you restrict force fields in your magic system, then this isn't an option, but I really just set some rules to make the (relatively) cheap power of Force Field balanced. Set maximum limits (for my game it was +10 rPD/+10 rED), require Extra END limitations, and/or put Activation on them. I did all 3, and it worked out just fine. It's still a far more appealing alternative to a "true wizard" than wearing heavy armor. It sounds like you want to "even the playing field" between wizards and non-wizards, so to me Force Field is just the way to do it. If I were playing a wizard in a FH game and Force Field was an available spell, there would be zero chance of me wearing armor. As far as the weaponry training goes, to me it's still the same deal. Why would the wizard carry around a sword doing 1 1/2d6 Killing when he could sling a RKA doing 2d6 Killing or more? If you want the staff to be an integral part of the wizard, you could certainly make that a required focus for all wizard spells. Just a suggestion... I think you might be putting unnecessary restrictions on your wizards when the natural course of Hero will gravitate a wizard toward exactly what you are looking for. In my system, the initial layout of points (for a VPP system) was daunting, and it prevented there from being a complete group of wizards (in fact, I think we've had about 3 total in 3 years), but those that followed through with it became the most interesting, the most versatile, and some of the most powerful characters. Or I could be missing entirely what you are looking for...

I used a VPP system for wizards in my fantasy games as well, and I got around the Active Point limits by including an Advantage on the Control Cost. I believe it was something like 2x AP max for +1/2, 3x for +1, 4x for +1 1/2, and so on. All spells were created by me, though I did allow player made spells (with approval by me). It allowed wizards to know powerful spells, but still were limited in how many spells they could have "memorized" at one time. It seemed to work out, but probably needs more testing.

Just curious how you came to 42 points on Astral Perception...Seems like a lot of points for what you get. I did it this way... Detect Astral Plane and Auras, Discriminatory, Tracking (25 Active Points); Extra Time: 1/2 Phase to Turn on (-.25); Character may be targeted from Astral Space while Astrally Perceiving (-.5), Side Effect: -5 Perception Rolls for Physical Plane (-1). Real Cost: 9 points As for availability, I haven't included actual numbers in my equipment or weapon lists, but I would say that you could almost apply the availability as a direct negative modifier to a skill roll so that there isn't much conversion needed. Or maybe subtract 4 (or whatever) from the Availability, apply the result as a negative modifier against the skill used to get the equipment. Granted this doesn't accurately reflect how difficult it was to actually score a 24 in the Shadowrun system, but it's probably for the best. If I remember correctly, the skill the player used wasn't actually the skill to find the item, it was an Etiquette skill to "convince" the fixer or whoever to get the item for him/her. So in Hero terms, that can be one of a bunch of different skills: Bribery, Persuasion, Streetwise, or Trading. Persuasion seems to be the closest to simulating Shadowrun's system. If you were looking at the Fixer's side of things, then I would say Trading would be the skill used to actually locate the item. I've pretty much finished up my Magic System now, including all the spells from the basic book, costs to become full magicians, aspected magicians, and adepts, most Adept Powers from the basic book and Magic in the Shadows, most of the Metamagic techniques, descriptions for the Totems in the basic book, and stats for elementals and nature spirits. It also includes the rules for dealing with astral combat against objects and rules for creating wards. If you want to check it out, sling me an email address and I'll send it your way.

After much deliberating, I've changed the system I just wrote for figuring the abilities of an object (spell, astral barrier, focus, etc.) in Astral Space. This is what I've done... The object is considered to be a 0-point character with the following modifications: It is considered to have a Strength equal to 10 + ¼ its Active Points (which figures its PD), Stun equal to 15 + ½ its Strength + ¼ its Active Points, and an Dexterity equal to 10 + ½ its Active Points divided by 3 (which figures its CV and Speed). So a Force 10 Spell has a Strength 13 (PD 3), Stun of 23, Dexterity of 11 (CV 3, Speed 2). Conversely, a 60 Active Point object would have a Strength of 25 (PD 5), Stun of 42, and Dexterity of 20 (CV 6, Speed 3). Objects counterattack every phase they act as long as the previous action from the magician was to attack. If the magician decides to break off combat, the object does not attack and continues to function at full strength. An object reduced to 0 Stun is effectively turned off, but will return to full Stun in 1 Turn. A character can keep the object or barrier “suppressed†by spending a full phase action every turn keeping it suppressed. To permanently destroy an object, the object must be brought to 0 Stun, and the character must then make a PRE Roll modified by –1 per 5 Active Points of the object. Success destroys the object or barrier. Destroying a focus in astral combat destroys its enchantment. Destroying a barrier destroys temporary barriers such as wards. Permanent barriers (like lodges, circles, and permanent wards) are rendered permanently ineffective against the character who defeated it, but are still effective against all other intruders. At least now I have some sort of (legal) rules basis to go by in determining the power of objects in astral space. It's kind of crunchy, but I think it's fair. Let me know if I'm off.

I would go with 2 levels of size increase (if you are using FH). And the stretching sounds fine for reach to me. I think I always assumed a long time ago that growth came with reach just for sake of simplicity. As for shapeshifters...I would think multiform would be the cheaper method of creating it, though it comes with a lot of extra record keeping for the player. But it's cleaner than a bunch of powers that are OiHID. Just my opinion on that. On the armor, from what you have there, #1 is the closest to how Shadowrun works. I've personally eliminated the ballistic/impact from my rules for simplicity sake. #2 would probably work as well, but in Shadowrun there just really isn't that much in the way of normal attacks, so impact would really not matter much (unless it was a decent amount to reduce KO). Not really sure what I think about #3, just I would like the characters to have some defense against energy-based attacks. If you are simulating the power of mages in Shadowrun, then that probably is accurate, as most spells really didn't have any defense except another mage on their side. Well, I'm hitting some snags left and right in the magic system, which leads me to believe that something needs to be changed for it to be clean in the Hero System. Mostly in regards to Astral Space. The rules that I have currently convert a character's mental stats to physical when traveling into Astral Space. So basically they attack with their Astral OCV of INT/3, do damage equal to their PRE/5, and have an Astral CON equal to their EGO. BODY still is the same. Now, Shadowrun allows magicians to attack astral presences such as spells, barriers, etc. How do you figure that? What I've done is said that the astral presence has a STR equal to its Active Points/2, an OCV equal to its AP/10, and STUN equal to its AP (completely arbitrary numbers, by the way). When attacking the astral presence, figure attacks normally, and the presence attacks back in each phase that it is attacked. If the presence is reduced to 0 Stun, it is banished/dispelled/destroyed. If the magician is reduced to 0 Stun, he is Disrupted, pretty much as is standard in SR (they disappear from Astral Space, must check for Magic Loss) and are unconscious. Any ideas on how to make sure its balanced and workable?

Well, I really wasn't doing anything for the Distinctive Features. I was more aiming toward the Social Limitations of the question, which is what I put down. And you can still use the "Limitation is not limiting in some cultures or societies" as a Social Limitation. As far as elves and dwarves go, like I said it all depends on how much racism you want in your game. In my game there really isn't any discrimination against elves, and very little against dwarves, so I would probably put it like so: Elves: No Social Limitation Dwarves: Social Limitation: Racial Discrimination (8-), Minor (-5 Disadvantage) (if I remember correctly, dwarves were still considered a second-class citizen, even in Tir Tairngire) Orks & Trolls: Social Limitation: Racial Discrimination (11-), Major (-15 Disadvantage) (If you play a lot in the Cascade Ork region, then you can put the "Not limiting in some cultures" modifier making it a -10 Disadvantage) If you're dealing a lot with Humanis Policlub, or similar anti-metahuman clubs, you might want to increase the Social Limitations. By putting the reactions into Distinctive Features, you're basically saying that every single person who meets a troll is going to have a negative reaction, which really isn't the case. That's why I would go for the Social Limitation instead. Then again, it's all a matter of how you run your game. Also, with Social Limitation you can avoid the "no 2 distinctive features" rule. It's probably a matter of personal preference on which Disadvantage you choose.

The Quickness modifier you mention, I would treat as inches of running. But as dwarves were the only race in 3rd Ed. Shadowrun to have a different penalty than the other races, I would just say that they have a slower base Running value, and possibly impose a racial maximum on Running lower than 10. As far as the social limitations for the races, that really depends on how much emphasis you want to place on racism in your game. I would probably do it this way: Elves: Social Limitation: Racial Discrimination (8-), Minor (-5 Disadvantage) Dwarves: Social Limitation: Racial Discrimination (11-), Minor (-10 Disadvantage) Orks & Trolls: Social Limitation: Racial Discrimination (14-), Major (-20 Disadvantage) For the most part, most cyberware in Shadowrun is unseen, and the parts that people can see easily are often just accepted (such as datajacks, chipjacks, etc.) so I wouldn't really allow a disadvantage for them; they're pretty common after all. And cyberware, at least in the rules that I'm using, already has a social effect in that the more you have implanted, the lower your PRE skills (-1 per 10 Essence lost). Perhaps, allowing a character with a cyberlimb to take distinctive features would be acceptable, as it is less common, yet still obvious. I would treat most cyberlimbs as Easily Concealable, Noticed and Recognized, Feature Detected by Commonly Used Sense (5 pt. Disad). But it really depends on how you want the cyberware to be received. If cyberlimbs are illegal, you could say that it causes a Major Reaction (+5 pts). Magic is similar, but as there really isn't a distinguising feature, I wouldn't let them have a disadvantage for it. The only one I could say would be this: Easily Concealed (5 pts), Noticed and Recognized (+0), Feature Detectable by unusual sense (Astral Perception) (-10) which would make the disadvantage worth no points. That's pretty much the way I would handle that. Hope it helps.

Initiation vs. Essence Alright...Well after getting to the equipment and trying to do Magical Foci, I've finally realize a problem. How would I do Initiation? Basically, since the character's magic pool and his essence (points for cyberware) are based off the same pool of points, how is it fair to allow a magician to increase this pool of points where a cyberware character can't? I'm considering calling it a characteristic subject to NCM, but that would still not prevent someone from legally buying up their Essence, and doing it cheaply (2 points for 1 Essence). Of course there is already a provision built in for "increasing Essence" with cyberware grades. So it could balance out in the end, but it brings up another issue...Magical Foci. The only power I've seen to simulate this is Aid to the Multipower Pool and Slot. But the way I've written it up (and taking the cue from Shadowrun and including a point (Karma) cost as well as monetary cost, it would end up costing around 13 real points for +10 AP to the Pool and Slot to affect only a single spell. That's kind of expensive considering that 10 AP to the Pool if bought directly would be around 7 points. The other way to do it is just Points that add to the multipower with limitations and aid to the powers...but the Aid will still cost more than just buying up the slot itself... I guess the other option is to not worry about a point cost for foci, just like other equipment, and that will avoid the whole issue, except that of Initiation. So, I guess the question is: Using the included system for magic, how would you do Initiation (or increasing the Magic Multipower Pool)? Thanks and sorry for the long post.

Armor Values Well, after doing some work, I've found that the system for Ballistic and Impact Armor in Shadowrun is really just too complex and unnecessary, so I've stuck with the standard rPD/rED system of defenses. I'm curious if anyone has had a chance to read through the docs that I passed along, and if anyone else has any questions, suggestions, or ideas. If so, post 'em here!

I'm not quite sure I caught what you meant about the magic skill. The way I'm working it is like this: Note: This is all based on 3rd Edition Shadowrun rules The Magic Attribute in Shadowrun was kind of a soft limit on the maximum power a magician can throw around. In the Hero System, I see that as more like a Multipower Reserve. It's a hard limit, but it also avoids the issues with +2 to all Target Numbers for maintaining spells, etc. that is a big factor in Shadowrun. The Multipower Reserve for starting Magicians is 75 points. The magical skills, Sorcery and Conjuring, are just like any other skills in that they determine success when casting spells or summoning elementals/spirits. So I'm basically just using them in that same respect for Hero. As far as the Bioware idea goes, it seems alright by me. The way I'm looking at my system is this: Bioware is just like Cyberware but doesn't cost them any points. Cyberware is bought with money, but behind the scenes they are also paying for it with the invisible pool of points (Essence Points). Bioware doesn't come from that invisible pool, so there needs to be something that balances it out. To do that, I jacked up the monetary costs, which comes from character points anyway, and set a limit. It's the same concept that I'm using for Alpha, Beta, and Delta grade cyberware...which I just realized I hadn't included in the Cyberware doc. Basically, it's paying in money what isn't paid for by points. Alpha is x2 nuyen, x.8 Essence. Beta is x4 nuyen, x.6 Essence. Delta is x8 nuyen and x.5 Essence. Of course, improved grades of cyberware aren't always available, nor are Delta clinics. I guess I'm trying to stay true to the theme of Shadowrun, where money is a great motivator for many, and also stay true to the balance of the Hero System, which I think is one of it's greatest strengths. It's a fine line to walk, but I think I'm doing alright.

Well, I've finished touching up the Matrix section and I was going to move on to the Equipment section. But I have a quick question for everyone. In Shadowrun, Armor ratings are separated into Ballistic and Impact sections. I've done that in my original equipment doc, but I was wonder how everyone felt about it. Should I do that again to be true to the nature of the source, or is it needlessly complicated? It really doesn't affect the Active Point value of the item as I put the Limitations of rPD: Only vs. Ballistic Weapons and Only vs. Impact Weapons as a -1 Limitation. It's more of a semantics thing and whether people feel that hand to hand weapons (which typically go against Impact Armor) need that slight boost in damage against the (usually) lesser Armor value of Impact Armor.

Done! And I can answer any questions about them here or at my email: damondusk@cox.net, though I'd prefer it here to keep the thread alive and interesting.

Ok, I'm putting it up here in zip format with 5 pdf files in it. I've included the Matrix doc though it is nowhere near finished, it's edited very poorly, and really has no flavor text at all. For that one, you need to already know the Shadowrun Matrix system for it to probably make any sense. If you have any questions about anything, let me know here or in email. Enjoy! Well, dang...Just looked at the Maximum Size for Attachments and NONE of them will fit. I can certainly email them to whoever wants them. The zip is 829K. Let me know and I'll send them off right away.