Vigil

Re: Marvel's Ten Best Metamorphs I based my list on what I felt were interesting applications of the possibilities and classes outlined in the UMM. So, for example, Proteus is both an internal and external metamorph if I'm recalling the terminology correctly. Plus his control of reality is yet another externalized metamorph quality. As for why I include the Blob, well, he seems to be able to manipulate his mass and density so he fits. And yes, it does seem one can go hog wild with the whole metamorph thing (ie adding Thor, Colossus, etc) but then I think one has to differntiate between OIHID and a true Multiform or metamorph power suite. To me, and this is only my opinion, if the core personality changes (as in The hulk and classic Sasquatch) then he MAY be a metamorph (and this is beyond the physical change). If the change is only physical (like Thor or Colossus) and the core personality/disads remain unchanged, then I would think it's more likely OIHID. But that's me and certainly cases can be made either way. Vigil

Re: Marvel's Ten Best Metamorphs Well, what the hell? Why wasn't I informed? I must have missed the memo. So, Sinister's like a shapeshifter? Does he just mimic forms like mystic or can he do powers too? Hell, for that matter I guess Apocalypse is a ful blown old school metamorph, also but he's so incredibly lame it's painful to even contemplate.

Re: Marvel's Ten Best Metamorphs Hey I just noticed Mr. Sinister listed as a metamorph! Say what? Isn't he just a steel guy with power blasts? When did this happen? I'm completely out of the x-loop.

Re: Marvel's Ten Best Metamorphs I have to admit that I found the UMM supplement to be a real eye opener, hence this thread. As Enforcer84 states, the UMM doesn't restrict metamorphosis to phyicality but includes qualatative changes as well. So, mind swapping, power transferring, reality alteration are all viable candidates, hence guys like Proteus (who is several kinds of metamorph all at once!) being prominent in my list. It's a great supplement because it makes one rethink just what the definition of a metamorph is and who qualifies.

In honor of the recently released Ultimate Metamorph, what could be more appropriate than to determine the MU's top ten metamorphs. Here's my top ten, more or less in order: 1) The Impossible Man 2) Proteus 3) The Hulk 4) Rogue 5) Mr. Fantastic 6) Vision 7) Hank Pym 8) Absorbing Man 9) Mystique 10) Snowbird and the next ten just because 11) Wasp 12) Sasquatch 13) Sandman 14) Blob 15) Mimic 16) The High Evolutionary 17) Living Monolith 18) Super Adaptoid 19) Kitty Pryde (nowhere near as interesting as Vision) 20) Madrox Wow. Metamorphs are way cool.

Re: The Marvel Magnificent Seven (Avengers) Absolutely, it was all Cyclops's fault! If he'd have spent more time at home and less at work with his creepy, bald, boss things would have worked out much better.

Re: Marvel's Ten Best, Continued...The Ten Best Energy Projectors Energy Projectors, moreso than most are difficult to define. Is it all a matter of SFX? In that case, virtually any character with a ranged attack of any sort could qualify (and even some without).

Re: The Marvel Magnificent Seven (Avengers) Yes, Hawkeye's count includes the issues when he appeared as Goliath (which was ultimately cool btw). On the topic of Jan, many may forget that it was Jan who lead the Avengers through what was definately one of their darkest hours, the siege of Avengers mansion by the Masters of Evil. People may forget and assume Cap was in charge but it was Jan. In fact,other than Cap, Jan may well be the most effective chairperson the Avengers have ever had.

Re: The Marvel Magnificent Seven (Avengers) gotcha anyway.

Re: Marvel's Ten Best, Continued...The Ten Best Energy Projectors Come to think of it, can you think of 10 MAJOR characters in Marvel who just blast? Not fly and blast (although flight is an accepted energy projector attribute) or have super strength and blast but just plain old blast? It's tough to think of more than few.

Re: The Marvel Magnificent Seven (Avengers) I agree. My favorite incarnation was his Yellowjacket persona, mostly because of the extremely cool costume (it's still one of the best). Although, even on that front, Hank Pym has had more cool costumes than just about tnay other character. Sadly, character-wise, I think he's been almost as maimed and mistreated and maligned as Wonder Man, which is saying something.

Re: Marvel's Ten Best, Continued...The Ten Best Energy Projectors I was originally thinking of more straight up blaster types but the differentiation suggested by Log and Shrike (there's a gimmick legal firm for sure) struck me as worth exploring. It seems that in virtually every case the line is pretty gray, anyway. I can only think of a small handful of pure blasters (Blastaar, Cyclops and maybe Havok) so maybe that says something about how varied the whole archetype has become.

Re: The Marvel Magnificent Seven (Avengers) I'm still not sure how Hank's creation of Ultron, cool as it was, "saved the genre". The genre, to my recollection was booming and in no danger creatively or economically in the early to mid to late sixties.

Re: The Marvel Magnificent Seven (Avengers) How do you see that he saved the genre?

Re: Marvel's Ten Best, Continued...The Ten Best Energy Projectors Y'know, it's interesting what Killer Shrike and Log said about the distinction between pure energy projectors ("blasters") and energy manipulators or controllers. If you differentiate that way, I thinkI would create two rather different lists. So...that being said... Marvel's Top Ten Energy Projectors (Blasters): 1) Blastaar (after all it's practically named after him) 2) Cyclops (still the archetype) 3) Havok (previously he had the coolest costume of all EPs) 4) Banshee (the best pure blaster of all, IMO) 5) Electro (may be a bit of an energy manipulator too) 6) Annihilus (one really really big EB) 7) Warbird 8) Dazzler 9) Moonstone 10) Nitro Marvel's Top Ten Energy Manipulators (Controllers): 1) The Silver Surfer (the Power Cosmic trumps anything else) 2) Magneto 3) Dr. Strange 4) Graviton 5) Captain Marvel 2 (Monica Rambeau) 6) Scarlet Witch 7) Invisible Woman 8) Sersi 9) Black Bolt 10) Firelord

Re: The Marvel Magnificent Seven (Avengers) Actually, y'know, there should be a data correction to my listing above. Hank Pym, in all of his various guises, added up comes to 301 appearances...which would bump Thor out of the top seven and would, therefore, supplant Wony at number eight and bump Herk out of the top ten. So, Hank makes it into the top seven numerically, but is he more "essential" to the team than Thor, Wonder Man or Quicksilver?

Re: The Marvel Magnificent Seven (Avengers) I did some checking and as of 1999 (the most recent stats I could find), the Avengers who have appeared in the most issues are: 1) Captain America (398 issues) 2) Vision (334) 3) Scarlet Witch (323) 4) Iron Man (322) 5) Hawkeye (322) 6) Wasp (313) 7) Hank Pym (in all his various guises) (301) so Thor is bumped from the top seven to 8) Thor (272) and rounding out the top ten 9) Wonder Man (217) 10) Quicksilver (160) with Herk being elimanated from the top ten with 11) Hercules (149 appearances) with Jarvis actually having 181 appearances! He's a busy guy. So, by the numbers, those would be the essential Avengers. Though I still think Wondy should be in there. Vigil

Re: Marvel's Ten Best, Continued...The Ten Best Energy Projectors I agree. I don't see Haweye as primarily or even secondarily and energy projector. He's more a Weapons Master/MA type. I inckuded Iron Man because of his flexibility as brick/energy projector but it's equally arguable that he shouldn't be included because he's more of a gadgeteer or even a brick. Same goes for Unicorn (who's a really great choice, btw, and a really underused character). It's these damn hybrids that screw everything up.

Re: Marvel's Ten Best, Continued...The Ten Best Energy Projectors Other than the Surfer, who is the ultimate MU energy projector (barring the Elders and Power Wielders) I think the greatest energy projector among the heralds (maybe even on par with the Surfer) is Air Walker. He seemed to control not just air but raw energy in a way no other herald ever has. He was ultimately cool!

Re: Marvel's Ten Best, Continued...The Ten Best Energy Projectors Oh yeah, and I think the controller vs projector thing may be a distinction without a difference. Magneto, for instance controls magnetism but he throws one of the meanest EBs in the MU when he wants to. Graviton too.

Re: Marvel's Ten Best, Continued...The Ten Best Energy Projectors I'd contemplated Black Bolt, for my list, as well as Blastaar and Annihilus, maybe they should have made it. I guess Galactus counts as an Energy Projector but that just may not be fair at all. Then you'd have to include the Stranger and the Celestials and why not the Beyonder? But still none of them throw a zap like Cyclops, lol.

Re: The Marvel Magnificent Seven (Avengers) You've nailed the time that I was thinking of exactly, Hugh. I think the Englehart/Shooter run from around 120 to the 180's was the high water mark for The Avengers and i think, similarly, that the team dynamic and characterizations gelled and reached their peak at that time. I think that's the reason why I chose those particular Avengers as "essential" as the thread states. Long running is another thing entirely. The longest running are, I believe: Captain America, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Wasp, Hawkeye and probably Iron Man most of whom are in my essential line up anyway. I think what the thread is trying to get at, if I'm interpreting things correctly is the most "Avengerish" Avengers, not neccessarily the most long running. I chose the line up I did because they were central to the most dynamic period in the team's history, that's all. Otherwise I would have included Hawkeye and the Wasp, too. Vigil

In tribute to the great Ten Best Bricks thread, how about this one, the Ten Best Energy Projectors. It's a pretty wide and impressive field but Ive left out the mystics (maybe wrongly) since they're kinda borderline energy projectors (and borderline eveything) but have included the cosmic types and brick hybrids. So good luck. Can't wait to see what the consensus is if any. Marvel's Top Ten Energy Projectors (unranked, except for the Surfer): 1) The Silver Surfer 2) Magneto 3) Invisble Woman 4) Captain Marvel 2/Photon (Monica Rambeau) 5) Cyclops (as pure an energy projector as it gets) 6) Havok (ditto but with cooler SFX) 7) Iron Man 8) Human Torch 9) Quasar 10) Thor It's an unusual list and there's zillions of others who qualify but it's start. Vigil

Re: The Marvel Magnificent Seven (Avengers) The essential Avengers? The Big Seven? Easy: Thor Iron Man Captain America Vision Scarlet Witch Wonder Man Beast I think the above is the most long running and stable line up ever with members like Wasp, Yellowjacket, Black Panther and Quicksilver alternating in and out. But the above are "the stuff" IMO...so write them puppies up! Vigil

Re: CHAR: Batman I guess the difficulty in writing up any character in this range (ie, Bats, cap, daredevil Wolverine, etc) is just how one defines "human" and especially maximum human. It seems there's a lot more consensus on clearly superhuman characters than there is on the mx human types. Even our beloved Champions is of litle help in sorting things out as it states (or did) that max human is 20 for primary characteristics but 30 for the more heroically inclined. I kinda see a mix of the two as being more in line with what's seen in comics, generally 30 for the physical stats and 20 for the mental/intellectual ones. But once that's sorted out and everyone agress it should be a piece of cake. Vigil